Recent Video by Alan Orr

[Alan Orr]

It doesn't happen in that video either.

When they go to what you call light sparring there is just loose striking and then clinch. Somewhere between this range is where supposedly he should be establishing a "bridge" and then using "force flow" to unbalance the guy and bounce him around while striking him.

It never happens.

Even if it did in light training with a likeminded person, it is still never seen in their actual fights. All we see is free striking and grappling, because that's what actually works.



There is a very important difference here.

This force flow thing is said to be used directly in fighting. The end goal is to be able to manipulate the opponent's body and balance while striking them. But it never happens.

Training drills in WSLVT are abstract, not meant to be used directly in fighting. We train pun-sau to develop the punch. Pun-sau doesn't happen in fighting, but punching obviously does. There's no disconnect between what we say we use in fighting, and what is actually used.

If you are blind to it then not much we can show you. WSL Wing Chun is not the same as what we do. I know that style well. Its not the same approach. Once you have first hand experience then maybe you will feel the difference

 

[LFJ]

If you are blind to it then not much we can show you. WSL Wing Chun is not the same as what we do. I know that style well. Its not the same approach. Once you have first hand experience then maybe you will feel the difference

I wasn't comparing it to WSLVT at all. KPM brought that up.

I'll say it once again...

Force flow in your body may be invisible, but anyone with eyesight will not be blind to the physical effect it should have on the opponent's body as you manipulate their balance, bouncing them around while striking them, as can clearly be seen in your demos.

Yet that never happens in fights by your team though you present the skill as a goal of the training to be used directly in fighting.

Again, you seem unwilling to address this disconnect and just call me blind for not seeing something that never happens.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Rather than trying to find solutions of how to deal with Wc people on a Wc forum ,which seems a bit strange, why not seek outa Wc club or instructor and get some training? The best way to learn how to deal with an art is to train it...

Sometimes you learn more by talking than by sparring. I have no interest in learning how to do WC because learning WC won't help me learn how to apply my system against it. I have already learned a little bit just from talking to people who do WC and seeing the videos.

From where I sit it seems that the concept of redirecting force isn't universal in WC to the point where it's referred to as "force flow." I guess for me it's just natural because of the 2 fighting systems I train in focuses on how we generate force, how we redirect force, how we deliver force. It's pretty much core for us. But based on what I've seen here WC isn't unified on this which means there are some WC practitioners out there who will have some really weak punches for the amount of years they have trained for.

Forward movement and forward pressure is also not a unified concept in WC and from the tons of WC videos I have seen. Many WC practitioners don't make good use of the kicks, and seem to be unaware of their leg position in relation to the opponent.

Before anyone rips my head off these are just observations that I see as an outsider looking in. I don't look at WC from a WC perspective so what I see as opportunities is done from the perspective of my fighting system.

 

[KPM]

Sometimes you learn more by talking than by sparring. I have no interest in learning how to do WC because learning WC won't help me learn how to apply my system against it. I have already learned a little bit just from talking to people who do WC and seeing the videos.

From where I sit it seems that the concept of redirecting force isn't universal in WC to the point where it's referred to as "force flow." I guess for me it's just natural because of the 2 fighting systems I train in focuses on how we generate force, how we redirect force, how we deliver force. It's pretty much core for us. But based on what I've seen here WC isn't unified on this which means there are some WC practitioners out there who will have some really weak punches for the amount of years they have trained for.

Forward movement and forward pressure is also not a unified concept in WC and from the tons of WC videos I have seen. Many WC practitioners don't make good use of the kicks, and seem to be unaware of their leg position in relation to the opponent.

Before anyone rips my head off these are just observations that I see as an outsider looking in. I don't look at WC from a WC perspective so what I see as opportunities is done from the perspective of my fighting system.

Good observations! Yes, Wing Chun is more diverse than people like Guy and LFJ would have you believe. Sometimes that is a good thing, and sometimes not. Sometimes the diversity comes from people or groups that have lost some of the skills. Sometimes the diversity comes from people or groups that have simply developed in a different direction....not worse, just different. Given that Wing Chun is the 2nd most practiced CMA in the world (behind Tai Chi), with lots of people now practicing it across the globe, you are just naturally going to see a lot of diversity and change. There is no one authority figure making everyone toe the "party line" or providing the standard for everyone else to follow.

Forceflow is definitely something you won't see in most Wing Chun. That is a relatively new "revival" of a skill that some claim Wing Chun had originally but was lost over time. The concept for Forward Pressure IS something that should be universal in Wing Chun, but some don't seem to apply it as well as others. I agree with you that it is difficult to see so many videos of Wing Chun people doing Chi Sau while leaning back in their stance and only using the arms and think that this is "forward pressure."

I'm interested in hearing what other things you see as vulnerabilities in Wing Chun from your systems fighting perspective. Perhaps start a separate thread?

 

[LFJ]

Yes, Wing Chun is more diverse than people like Guy and LFJ would have you believe.

Huh? I never said Wing Chun is not diverse.

 

[SaulGoodman]

Hey LFJ, I don't know much about Alan's flow stuff but have watched a ton of his free clips and when they do their gloved stuff I can see the principles sometimes when they get jammed up. Maybe these skills are more evident with prolonged contact? When simply throwing flurries of strikes I guess force flow doesn't really come into things? Also when he's doing doing his flow demoes he's exaggerating what he's doing in order for the viewer to see the raw mechanics. In application things seem to become much smaller besides why would his guys want to throw people way once they've bridged? Once in tight I would think their aim is to stay their force flow or not

 

[LFJ]

Given that FF is invisible, why is no one else looking for the clearly physical effect it is said to have on an opponent?

If it's invisible and also has no observable effect, it's indistinguishable from something that doesn't even happen.

 

[SaulGoodman]

I don't know LFJ, maybe it feels different hands-on so to speak?

 

[KPM]

I don't know LFJ, maybe it feels different hands-on so to speak?

This very thing has now been stated multiple times. Seems that some people just don't want to hear that.

 

[SaulGoodman]

Not disagreeing Kpm, I did say that in some of the clips I've seen there is evidence (to me) of the flow concept in application. I think some things are far easier to quantify when you physically do them rather than just video

 

[LFJ]

Not disagreeing Kpm, I did say that in some of the clips I've seen there is evidence (to me) of the flow concept in application. I think some things are far easier to quantify when you physically do them rather than just video

Were they clips of his fight team in actual contests?

Someone being unbalanced is clearly perceptible to an onlooker. Doesn't require that I feel the loss of balance myself.

I'm not taking anything away from his fighters, but what do we see in the ring?

Unbridged striking, clinch, and BJJ ground skills.

That's great. Those are things that work. FF has not been demonstrated to have ever been used in fighting the way it is claimed to work.

They'd probably be better off dropping the chi-sau tricks, and just working more on the stuff that is actually functional outside of chi-sau.

 

[SaulGoodman]

You seem to want to debunk their stuff, why do you feel so strongly about it?

 

[LFJ]

I'm just asking where it has been used in fighting, since that's the extraordinary claim that has been made.

Asking to see it in action is a debunking attempt? That's bizarre you'd think that.

 

[SaulGoodman]

I would say that "extraordinary" is no more bizarre a term than "debunking". I'm sorry, I must be really dumb but I can and have seen some of the force flow in evidence. And no, I'm not going to go through the trouble of tracking down clips that you probably won't be convinced by.
I have no vested interest in Alan Orr or his organization I just, like you, say what I see. I'm not looking for people flying through the air and subsequently being bludgeoned into a greasy spot during the course of an mma match.

I understand the difference between demo and application, as you seem to.
This is kind of a circular argument now, you won't accept it's worthwhile unless you see it applied in a way YOU want to see it applied. I believe where Alan's force flow stuff is concerned it seems to be the case that only feeling it/being on the receiving end of it will convince some people.

 

[LFJ]

I would say that "extraordinary" is no more bizarre a term than "debunking".

I didn't say the term was bizarre, but the idea that asking to see it used as claimed is an attempt to debunk it, rather than a reasonable request.

This is kind of a circular argument now, you won't accept it's worthwhile unless you see it applied in a way YOU want to see it applied.

The way I want to see it applied is the way in which it is claimed to be applicable.

I believe where Alan's force flow stuff is concerned it seems to be the case that only feeling it/being on the receiving end of it will convince some people.

He demos a clear physical effect on the opponent's balance, does he not?

If what the opponent feels doesn't actually affect them, what does it accomplish?

 

[SaulGoodman]

I'm starting to realize how Alan Orr must feel...

I'm out

 

[JowGaWolf]

Good observations! Yes, Wing Chun is more diverse than people like Guy and LFJ would have you believe. Sometimes that is a good thing, and sometimes not. Sometimes the diversity comes from people or groups that have lost some of the skills. Sometimes the diversity comes from people or groups that have simply developed in a different direction....not worse, just different. Given that Wing Chun is the 2nd most practiced CMA in the world (behind Tai Chi), with lots of people now practicing it across the globe, you are just naturally going to see a lot of diversity and change. There is no one authority figure making everyone toe the "party line" or providing the standard for everyone else to follow.

Forceflow is definitely something you won't see in most Wing Chun. That is a relatively new "revival" of a skill that some claim Wing Chun had originally but was lost over time. The concept for Forward Pressure IS something that should be universal in Wing Chun, but some don't seem to apply it as well as others. I agree with you that it is difficult to see so many videos of Wing Chun people doing Chi Sau while leaning back in their stance and only using the arms and think that this is "forward pressure."

I'm interested in hearing what other things you see as vulnerabilities in Wing Chun from your systems fighting perspective. Perhaps start a separate thread?

Those were the only things that were sticking out to me. The rest is mainly what I think I would try to do based on what I see. Here's what I know about WC. You guys like to take the direct line to punching meaning much of what I can except are straight jab like punches. I won't be able to win trying to out punch someone on a direct path which is fine since my style is circular. If I fought against a WC practitioner then I would welcome constant forward pressured. To me "constant forward pressure" means that you aren't thinking about moving backwards when you probably should move backwards. I would probably try to drop low every now an then for a take down but mostly I would take angle.

Sweeps would definitely be on the menu. I'm not sure how much WC pays attention to their legs but when I watch the sparring videos even with Alan, the position of the legs were often within sweeping range. This isn't to speak bad about WC, just an observation. Besides how many times do we actually see people use a sweep or foot hook during sparring or professional fighting. From a personal perspective my job is to break my opponent's root, I can either to that by attacking low, by attacking, or attacking low an high at the same time. So for my own personal things I like in my style, I would definitely go for WC legs. I also know you guys like to make contact with my arms so you can go into your WC techniques so I would definitely try to avoid giving you punches that you are familiar with.

I think the biggest advantage I would have is that most WC practitioners tend to get "tunnel vision" where they are so focused on attacking up top. I would definitely try to bait a WC practitioner and let him get just enough punches up top to get him to focus and forget about other parts. Once I feel that commitment, then I'll attack where the person isn't thinking of.

The big advantage that I see in WC is that once they start punching in the middle, it almost instantly causes people to try to outpunch the WC practitioner in the middle. WC rules the middle and that's the worst place to fight a WC practitioner. If a punch comes to my center then I need to move my center and send a counter punch where there is least resistance.

 

[SaulGoodman]

Great observations Jowga, sounds like you have an excellent instructor! Was looking at some clips from your system the other day, very nice fluid/flowing art with good footwork and fast hand combinations. The hands in particular don't look disimilair to Wing Chun in some cases, I understand there is a hung gar influence there?

 

[geezer]

@Jow Ga: I liked your post (#117 above). Your thinking reflects the well known saying from Sun Tzu's Art of War, "Know your enemy and yourself and you will be victorious in 100 battles." This another reason is why it's good to have intelligent commentary on this WC forum from non-Wing Chun people.

 

[JustSomePerson]

Given that FF is invisible, why is no one else looking for the clearly physical effect it is said to have on an opponent?

If it's invisible and also has no observable effect, it's indistinguishable from something that doesn't even happen.

Hi. Force Flow is technically not 'invisible' if you have the right instrumentation. For example, if I had a very powerful microscope, perhaps electron, you can see, albeit interpreted, a force passing through an object.

In branches of mathematics 'force flow' would be referred to as a vector and here a force vector. There are some materials that enable one to see the distribution of a load and the force exerted throughout the material.

For example please see this video.

03:56 is where you see some photoelastic material put under stress and the force flow through it. If your bones were made of this material or other parts of your body you would be able to see the force vectors pass through. Likewise, if you had good instrumentation you could 'see it' pass through bones and flesh too.

We can either talk physics properly and use the correct terms or choose a half way house such as force flow as most don't do mathematics and physics.

In sum, yes, to the human eye it is invisible but it is there and I hope to have provided some thoughts that may allow some to understand the idea of force flow a little better.

Sometimes when we talk about having good structure we are talking about the ratio of a force vector that passes through the skeletal structure as opposed to the more fleshy parts and if your body had the same properties of that photoelastic material, you would be able see how that ratio changes as you position and reposition your body to be more structurally aligned or not.

It is true, when we have incorrect tension the force vector will distribute to the fleshy parts over the skeletal structure and this is what some people mean by it becoming 'jammed'. There is nothing mystical it is all just science. The issue is always one of articulation and the extent to which some will exploit ignorance here to insert their own frameworks. Others, as stated, attempt a half way house because most folk are not good with overly technical and 'scientific' terminology. 'Reaching/attaining Song' helps prevent 'jamming' in my view and allows one to 'feel' a vector force and to use it more efficiently.

This is why SLT is so important as one is dealing with just gravity and the ground reaction force and the meditative aspect trains you to attend to the sensations in your body and to identify the force vectors passing through, whilst allowing you to play with body positions to experience changes in that ratio and to reach Song in this very basic mechanical system; gravity and the ground reaction force i.e. just those simple force vectors.

I hope some find what I write above useful.

Cheers