Recent Video by Alan Orr

[LFJ]

If such heavy criticism is going to be applied to Alan Orr's work, I thought "turn about" was only "fair play"!!

So your argument is "Alan isn't the only one with a disconnect between training, theory, and fighting"...

I have to say that's not a very flattering line of argument for Alan, and not one I would take.

You can go ahead and assume you have proven my VT to be horrible. Everyone in my lineage totally sucks. No video necessary.

That brings us not one step closer to proving Alan's claims of unbalancing "bridge" skills being directly applicable in a fight.

You could say we're "blind to it", and Alan already has, but no one can even point to a single timestamp on any of their many fight videos and say "here it is".

A completely inexperienced person would be able to watch the opponent and see them being unbalanced by "bridge" contact. But it can't be pointed to.

I think Alan knows this, but is at this point too invested in the method, what with all the DVDs, online mentorship, and new book he's trying to sell.

That's why when pressed on the question, rather than pointing to a timestamp, he loses his temper, issues challenge fights, and demands MMA records or videos.

That is nothing but an attempt to discredit the questioner to divert the question.

So again, assuming or even proving my VT is horrible doesn't demonstrate Alan's Force Flow unbalancing "bridge" skills actually work in fighting.

Deflect all you want. So far, it has not been, and apparently can't be, demonstrated.

And in fact, all their fight videos are evidence that it is not applicable.

 

[LFJ]

Please explain to us all how the sparring we see above relates to the training in Chi Sau/Lop Sau we see in this video:

Jai isn't a student of PB lineage.

I have no idea if he and I even share the same understanding of the system. He's 3 generations removed from WSL in a branch I have zero experience with.

There's a lot of variation within WSLVT. I can't criticize Geezer's YMVT by pointing to a video of a Kwok student, can I? Same here.

You will have to ask Jai what his understanding of the system is. I really know nothing of what his theory and training is like. After several generations it could be quite different.

What I can say is we often see in his clips side body stances, haymakers, round kicks, and wrestling. Those are not things I integrate into my VT.

 

[KPM]

So your argument is "Alan isn't the only one with a disconnect between training, theory, and fighting"...

---I never said Alan has a "disconnect." You did!


You can go ahead and assume you have proven my VT to be horrible. Everyone in my lineage totally sucks. No video necessary.

---I never said that either. I think WSLVT is a good system. Maybe a little one dimensional, but a good system. The DIFFERENCE is....I don't think that EVERY other system of Wing Chun sucks....as you and Guy seem to think, regardless of any minor comments you think say otherwise. I was only pointing out that your criticism of Alan Orr can apply equally to WSLVT.



That's why when pressed on the question, rather than pointing to a timestamp, he loses his temper, issues challenge fights, and demands MMA records or videos.

---But it seems that, on the other hand, when pressed to point to ANY video of WSLVT sparring that you think is acceptable....you and Guy can produce nothing.


Deflect all you want. So far, it has not been, and apparently can't be, demonstrated.

----And by that logic, WSLVT doesn't really EVER free-spar or fight, because it can't be demonstrated!

 

[KPM]

Jai isn't a student of PB lineage.

----But he is WSL lineage. Or did their lineage not get the "real" thing from WSL like so many of the other poor souls out there?


I have no idea if he and I even share the same understanding of the system. He's 3 generations removed from WSL in a branch I have zero experience with.

---Ok. Then please post some WSLVT free-sparring/fighting videos that you think are a good example.

 

[KPM]

But you don't know of any that are good examples of WSLVT???? How about you do us a favor and search on youtube for all of these videos from "lots of people" (assuming you mean WSLVT people, because that was who were talking about) and select a few that you think are a good example of WSLVT sparring. That shouldn't be too hard, should it?

Guy??

 

[SaulGoodman]

Hilarious, Jai Harman who lives in China, trains under a highly revered WSL master and puts up clips of himself applying his skills is not regarded as having the "real" VT tm. This is from people too egotistical to post clips of their own skills because deep down they know they are no better (probably worse) than Jais...

 

[LFJ]

---I never said Alan has a "disconnect." You did!

Right, but your rebuttal is to try and prove that I have a disconnect, which even if true doesn't help Alan's case.

I was only pointing out that your criticism of Alan Orr can apply equally to WSLVT.

It can't though. The criticism is that Alan claims direct applicability of chi-sau techniques which however don't appear in their fights. I do not make this claim.

---But it seems that, on the other hand, when pressed to point to ANY video of WSLVT sparring that you think is acceptable....you and Guy can produce nothing.

Which is not an issue to me. The efficacy of what I train doesn't rely on there being video online to satisfy the trolls.

In my lineage, it is requested that we don't show free fighting aspects or too much else publicly beyond some specific drills. If people are interested in what is shown, they are welcome to come and see more.

Alan chooses to make a lot public, so it's fair to ask about it.

----And by that logic, WSLVT doesn't really EVER free-spar or fight, because it can't be demonstrated!

It can be demonstrated in person. Alan has public fight videos. That's his choice. But we never see what he claims to be directly applicable from chi-sau. It's just a question about things he has chosen to make public.

Seems easy enough to point to a timestamp rather than get angry and demand MMA records and videos from others or issue challenges. Discrediting the questioner suggests the question is too difficult or embarrassing to answer truthfully.

Jai isn't a student of PB lineage.

----But he is WSL lineage. Or did their lineage not get the "real" thing from WSL like so many of the other poor souls out there?

As I said, I wouldn't know. I'm not familiar with his branch and it is several generations removed from where I stand. What's with the bating?

---Ok. Then please post some WSLVT free-sparring/fighting videos that you think are a good example.

Isn't that off topic? Whether I can or cannot show good VT fighting clips won't answer the question of Alan's unbalancing "bridge" techniques never showing up in their fight clips.

Assume what I show is horrible VT. Does that mean Alan's techniques have now shown up? Timestamp?

 

[LFJ]

Hilarious, Jai Harman who lives in China, trains under a highly revered WSL master and puts up clips of himself applying his skills is not regarded as having the "real" VT tm. This is from people too egotistical to post clips of their own skills because deep down they know they are no better (probably worse) than Jais...

Typical KPM trolling style of putting words in others' mouths to sow discord. Please stop.

 

[KPM]

Typical KPM trolling style of putting words in others' mouths to sow discord. Please stop.

How is it trolling to simply ask for you and Guy to supply what you think is a good example of WSLVT free-sparring? How is it trolling to simply ask you and Guy to show how the Chi Sau/Lop Sau training seen in numerous PB videos shows up in a clip of WSLVT free-sparring?

This is a discussion forum. Threads in any discussion forum tend to drift in different directions as they grow. This thread started off talking about Alan Orr's new video, then drifted into a question of why what is in that video is hard to see in his other sparring videos. Now, since we are on the topic of videos and sparring, I'd simply like to drift in the direction of talking about how the things in PB's videos show up in sparring. That is relatively on topic for the theme of the thread, and not trolling at all. The only people that would see it as trolling, are the people that might find it hard to answer the questions the topic might produce!

 

[SaulGoodman]

So where's these PBWSLVT clips showing us where we are all going wrong then?

 

[wckf92]

So where's these PBWSLVT clips showing us where we are all going wrong then?

 

[LFJ]

How is it trolling to simply ask for you and Guy to supply what you think is a good example of WSLVT free-sparring?

I said the bit about putting words in others' mouths is your typical trolling tactic to sow discord, as you just did under your SaulGoodman account again.

How is it trolling to simply ask you and Guy to show how the Chi Sau/Lop Sau training seen in numerous PB videos shows up in a clip of WSLVT free-sparring?

You were answered 7 pages earlier, and brought it up again just to troll.

Now, since we are on the topic of videos and sparring, I'd simply like to drift in the direction of talking about how the things in PB's videos show up in sparring.

No one has claimed chi-sau or laap-sau drills from that lineage are directly applicable in fighting. You were told they are not numerous times and their abstract nature was explained to you. Either you have severe attention deficit disorder, as you accuse us of having, or you are trolling to divert the question about Alan's claims.

 

[KPM]

I said the bit about putting words in others' mouths is your typical trolling tactic to sow discord, as you just did under your SaulGoodman account again.

---So, you have bought into Guy's paranoid delusion? You guys hang out together too much!



You were answered 7 pages earlier, and brought it up again just to troll.k

---It wasn't really answered at all. I didn't bring it up to "troll". I brought it up because I see it as a legitimate question and topic for conversation. I think others here a curious about the answer as well. So are you going to answer the question, or just continue to deflect and obfuscate?



No one has claimed chi-sau or laap-sau drills from that lineage are directly applicable in fighting. You were told they are not numerous times and their abstract nature was explained to you.

---I didn't ask you to demonstrate how the drills show up directly in fighting. What I said was can you point out how all that is related to what we are seeing in the sparring videos? It is related isn't? Otherwise why are you training it?

---I've also asked you simply to show us a video of what you consider good WSLVT lineage free-sparring/fighting. Why is that so difficult? Are you saying there are none?

 

[Phobius]

Shh, its a secret. (Sounds like a non-contributing post, but it has actually been stated by LFJ and guy (I think) that showing sparring using the real WSLVT is forbidden)

 

[LFJ]

---It wasn't really answered at all.

It has been answered several times on this thread, and on almost every thread we get into with you.

---I didn't ask you to demonstrate how the drills show up directly in fighting. What I said was can you point out how all that is related to what we are seeing in the sparring videos? It is related isn't? Otherwise why are you training it?

You posted videos of separate branches, one of which I have zero experience with and have no idea what their training is like. You'd better ask him what he's doing.

---I've also asked you simply to show us a video of what you consider good WSLVT lineage free-sparring/fighting. Why is that so difficult? Are you saying there are none?

I posted a clip that showed a bit of light sparring in the thread on WSL taan-sau, where we ironically spent pages and pages answering the same question you're bringing up here... again... You ignored it to troll some more.

Seems on any thread where things are not going the way you like, you start trolling until you get one of us to say something that "offends" you so you can report it and get the thread closed.

 

[SaulGoodman]

LFJ, stop being paranoid. I have said several times that KPM and I ARE NOT THE SAME PERSON. More than one person on this forum don't like your rhetoric. Deal with it.

 

[LFJ]

Well, you share the same trolling tactics. Bit peculiar.

It's now "rhetoric" to ask where the force flow unbalancing "bridge" skills are in public fight videos when it's claimed to be directly applicable?

Excuse me for asking such an unreasonable question. How dare I?

 

[KPM]

Well, you share the same trolling tactics. Bit peculiar.

---What "trolling tactics"? Like I pointed out to Guy on the other thread.....when the both of you were tag-teaming on me it was perfectly fine. But now Saul comes along and is willing to back me up and just happens to share some of my same opinions and you and Guy don't like it one bit! Funny how that works! And I've never accused you and Guy of being the same person....even though it becomes difficult in most threads to tell you two apart!


Excuse me for asking such an unreasonable question. How dare I?

---And excuse me for asking such an unreasonable question as ....."can you show us all some clips of what you consider good WSLVT free-sparring?"! How dare I indeed!!! You get all defensive over such a simple question??


Seems on any thread where things are not going the way you like, you start trolling until you get one of us to say something that "offends" you so you can report it and get the thread closed.

---First, how was this thread not "going the way" I like? You guys didn't prove anything or win any kind of argument. It was just a discussion. I thought it was rather disrespectful to Alan and his guys, but that's the extent of it. Second, I have never reported a thread to the moderators in my life! Your paranoia is notable!

---But, at this point it is becoming very clear that you have no intentions of answering either of my questions here. This leaves me to conclude that you won't post any good WSLVT sparring videos because there aren't any to post. Despite the 1000's of people that you say have converted to WSLVT and been won over....I guess none of them were won over enough to actually post videos showing how much their free-sparring skills have improved with WSLVT. That seems rather curious to me. But we should leave it at that and not continue to draw this out. But wait....Guy hasn't had the chance to wade in and tell me how unreasonable I am being for asking these simple questions. So this probably won't end anytime soon!

 

[LFJ]

---What "trolling tactics"?

Pay attention now. I said it's the bit about putting words in others' mouths to sow discord. I never said Jai or WZP don't have real VT. I made it clear I am not familiar with their actual training and theory.

I thought it was rather disrespectful to Alan and his guys, but that's the extent of it.

It's disrespectful to say I don't see what he's talking about show up in fights and to ask where it is? Odd.

---But, at this point it is becoming very clear that you have no intentions of answering either of my questions here. This leaves me to conclude that you won't post any good WSLVT sparring videos because there aren't any to post.

Now you're just back to lying again. We answer your same question on every thread, and I did give you a clip on the taan-sau thread. You ignored it then and you're ignoring it again now.

 

[KPM]

Now you're just back to lying again. We answer your same question on every thread, and I did give you a clip on the taan-sau thread. You ignored it then and you're ignoring it again now.

---There you go accusing me of being a liar again! I'm not lying about anything. But it has been awhile since that thread. If I ignored a good clip, then I apologize for that. Please post it again here so we can all review it properly.