Receiving Black Belt in multiple arts

[Phoenix44]

Rank is just that, rank. I know most of you don't feel this way, but a lot of you are talking as though a "black belt" was some sort of ultimate achievement...and it's not. It simply means that you've gained some mastery of the basics of that particular art. Hopefully, you don't just take your belt and go home...you continue training. But for MOST arts, there's no applicability of rank to any other art--or even necessarily to any other dojo in the same art.

Sure, if you know one martial art, you may have the fitness level, understanding of mechanics, attitude, and even some technique, which makes it easier to learn another art. But, bottom line, (I'll quote a friend here):

"I don't care if you got your black belt in 3 years...as long as you understand that you've only been training for 3 years."

Likewise, if you've trained *sincerely* for 15 years, whether in one art or three arts (I'm not talking about dojo shopping) you're probably pretty skilled even wearing a blue belt in your current art.

 

[Kevin Walker]

Here is a question that I have been pondering. Let say someone has a black belt in style A and they decide to study Martial Art B which is similar (kata's /forms are different) Would it take someone one who already has a black belt the same amount of time to receive a black belt in Style B. As it would someone just starting out in the Martial arts. I believe someone could study a second art and it could take half or less the time. Now I know there are different variables to each art. The amount of training time is the most deciding factor. But your average martial artist would trains 2-3 days in a dojo and does maybe sometime at home.

Hi,

I encounter this question from the curious from time to time. It has been my understanding, and my experience, that it takes an average of ten years to earn a shodan (1st degree black belt) in Judo and Jiu-jitsu; and five years (or less) in Karate or Tae Kwon Do.

These are the ranges which I expect a proficient practitioner of any martial art to have practiced before I consider them competent.

Now if it takes an enthusiast between 5-10 years of hard training and competition (plus a few street fights) to become competent in one martial art, how in the world does one acquire black belts in several different styles?

I am very suspicious when I walk down the street of my hometown (Boston) and see some of these martial arts schools teach: Shaolin Kung fu, Muy Thai, Judo, Karate, Bando, Ninjitsu, boxing, and yoga, all by the same instructor! And other schools list several more different and equally divergent styles that they claim expertise. I usually just walk past these storefronts without visiting.

A European just started teaching Shorinji Kempo in the Boston area (Cambridge), I visited him and check him out, and thankfully he is legitimate!

Billy Blanks used to have his dojo about 12 miles outside of Boston in a city called Quincy, and all he taught was Kempo and he was very good. Tohoku Judo Club is outside of Boston in Somerville, all they teach is straight Judo, and they are formidable.

So the point of this story is that it is inevitable that if you study multiple martial arts, one or more of your skills is going to suffer, or you end up liking one style over another and devote yourself to that one style.

 

[Mark Lynn]

Hi,

1) I encounter this question from the curious from time to time. It has been my understanding, and my experience, that it takes an average of ten years to earn a shodan (1st degree black belt) in Judo and Jiu-jitsu; and five years (or less) in Karate or Tae Kwon Do.

2) These are the ranges which I expect a proficient practitioner of any martial art to have practiced before I consider them competent.

3) Now if it takes an enthusiast between 5-10 years of hard training and competition (plus a few street fights) to become competent in one martial art, how in the world does one acquire black belts in several different styles?

4) I am very suspicious when I walk down the street of my hometown (Boston) and see some of these martial arts schools teach: Shaolin Kung fu, Muy Thai, Judo, Karate, Bando, Ninjitsu, boxing, and yoga, all by the same instructor! And other schools list several more different and equally divergent styles that they claim expertise. I usually just walk past these storefronts without visiting.

A European just started teaching Shorinji Kempo in the Boston area (Cambridge), I visited him and check him out, and thankfully he is legitimate!

5) Billy Blanks used to have his dojo about 12 miles outside of Boston in a city called Quincy, and all he taught was Kempo and he was very good. Tohoku Judo Club is outside of Boston in Somerville, all they teach is straight Judo, and they are formidable.

6) So the point of this story is that it is inevitable that if you study multiple martial arts, one or more of your skills is going to suffer, or you end up liking one style over another and devote yourself to that one style.

Hi Kevin

I inserted numbers into your post so I could address them.

1) 10 years for a BB in judo (?), I think it depends upon your school and your competing. I haven't studied judo so I might be TOTALLY wrong here, however I thought you earned your ranking through competing.

5 years or less for a BB in TKD or karate this is more like it however in my experience in seeing different schools 2-4 years is more like it (with 4 years being on the high end and the least common).

2) I would agree here. I think you need at least that amount of time to start to understand what your art is all about and to be able to teach it or pass it on to someone else.

3) How many street fights? I guess I don't qualify, since I've only been involved in 2-4 and those were when I was pretty early in my MA studies.

It's not that hard really to obtain BBs in different styles. Don't get me wrong here if the styles are similar then you can execute the techniques pretty easily and move up the ranks.

If you have anytime in a system of TKD (let's take a form of American TKD, American TKD is a system that was based on Korean TKD but over time has changed and the instructors have from their own groups, asscociations etc. etc. and are not belonging to a group or association that is run from Korea.) you can probably go into another system and in six months or so be up to your level in your previous system in the new system. Front stance is similar in each system, back stance, blocks etc. etc. The self defense techniques will be similar (probably) and so on.

If you take different arts such as TKD and jujitsu than it will take longer, however similar arts and it won't take as long.

4) Again it depends upon the school. Many times the schools in order to keep the doors open sublease their space to different instructors so they might teach Thai Boxing class on X night but it might be taught by Y instructor and not the owner of the school.

However the instructor might teach his primary art (maybe his first art) to keep the doors open and the second art (the one he loves) as part of his curriculmn. Say his first art was TKD and it's the most popular (keeps the doors open) and he has been practicing the art since he was a kid. So in his
20's he discovers Thai Boxing. He enjoys the workout and he wants to get better so he begins teaching it as a side course at his school. Is there something wrong with this? Believe me to the rank beginner coming through the doors of his school they won't know or care that he has only recently taken Thai boxing because they won't see a difference he'll still be good at both kicking and punching due to his experience in TKD.

5) All a person needs is one style, however I still believe that a person needs some things outside of his style to keep the ideas coming in, the mental gears turning so to speak.

6) I agree totally with your statement here. My first system was American TKD/karate and I earned my 1st BB there. My love has been the Filipino Martial Arts and I've devoted the last 10 years to studying those systems earning BB (instructor) ranks in two systems (these are similar styles). However I can still teach the American TKD and up until just a couple of years ago did although every chance I got I practiced and taught the FMA.

However do I do my jump turn kicks anymore? Has my roundhouse kick sufffered by TKD standards? Will I look like my rank (3rd dan, we Amercians use Japanese terms for our rank based on a Korean martial art :boing2: ) if I competed? Yes to the first two and no to the third. So yes my TKD suffers.

Submitted with repsect
Mark Lynn

 

[Mark Lynn]

Hi all

Does having multiple black belt in different styles help trhe martial artist or hinder him? Many seem to be saying yes that it does. However I think it depends on several different factors.

Lets look to history shall we?

It was common during the old days for students to learn from their instructor up to a point and then train with another instructor who would possibly teach them a different style or type of martial art.

Please forgive the following spelling errors since I'll be using names that are from a foreign language.
1) Kano Jigori founder of Judo studied several different classic styles of ju-jutsu and changed the teaching to elimnate the more lethal aspects of the art and called his art ju-do.

2)Funakoshi Gichin- in his book (Karate Do MY Way of Life) tells about him taking lessons from different masters. Founder of Shotokan karate

3) Hideonori Otsuka founder of Wado ryu karate studied a system and was a instructor in ju jutsu (master instructor I believe) when he saw Funakoshi sensei in an demonstration and then switched over to karate. And then made his own system Wado after having a fall out with Funakoshi sensei.

4) Ueshiba Morihei - studied several styles of aiki-ju-jutsu, primarily though daito-ryu and he created his system of Aikido. However he also studied the spear, jo (4 ft. short staff), and the sword.

5) Several of the okinawan masters studied Gong Fu (kung fu, wushu whatever) in china as well as the native systems of Okinawa (tote, tudi?) from which came karate as we know it today.

From the more modern instructors
1) GM Remy Presas studied different styles of arnis (FMAs), his families style, Balintawak escrima, also judo, and karate and he created Modern Arnis.

2) Don Draeger (one of the foremost modern authorities on the martial arts and martial cultures) studied several different japanese systems (Shindo Muso ryu Jodo), I think judo and possibly karate. Again earning teaching grades in multiple systems.

3) Master Jung Nam (taken from Hoshinsul Conceptual Self Defense) (1988 edition) taught TKD, Hapkido and Yoga at college. Currently holds a 8th degree black belt in TKD, BB in Judo and BB in Hapkido.

4) Dr. Kim (taken from the same book) is currently one of three Judo masters in Korea (8th dan), and a 9th degree BB in TKD. "He also holds master's ratings in several other martial arts."

5) Dan Anderson - American karate or TKD BB and huge competitor in the 70's and 80's and a senior master in Modern Arnis under GM Remy Presas.

6) Dan Inosanto - BB under Ed Parker and Bruce Lee's long time student. One of the foremost authorities on JKD and conceptual martial arts, filipino martial arts, and martial arts in general.

And the list goes on and on. Just do some research it is as common back in the old days as it is today to cross train. The systems today that people say you shouldn't or couldn't cross train in, or the sytems that are complete and you don't need to cross train are some of the very systems that the founders created on their own by cross training.

While I agree that many people today that have multiple BBs and 10th dans in several systems could be bogus. It doesn't mean that everyone is. I think that if given the chance to study under any of these men I listed, anyone on this thread would be a fool to pass up that chance because they saw they had multiple black belts and didn't think that a person could receive multiple BBs so they are bogus.

What they do have is years and years of training, study, and dedication to their ideal of praciticing the martial arts.

Submitted with respect
Mark Lynn

 

[Mark Weiser]

I also do study three but slightly different Kenpo Arts. Jun Bao Wu Shu(James Ibaro states Kenpo came from this system), American Kenpo, Five Animal Kenpo(this form of Kenpo enhances Jun Bao Wu Shu since both are based on Kung-Fu system). They are each Kenpo but different with emphasis on different areas of Training.

Once Blackbelt is obtained in each of them. It may take 5 years but once done You are a better Martial Artist in my opinion. SGM Parker encouraged cross training to learn about other Arts.

Sincerely,
Mark E. Weiser

 

[Kane]

I have experience in this. When I got my Ju Jitsu black belt it took me still around the same amount of time to get my judo black belt. However, it was MUCH simpler to learn the moves from judo since the form of Ju Jitsu I learned emphasized a lot of grappling. I’m pretty sure if it was the reason of the arts had a lot of similarities is what made to simple to learn it later on.

So basically you might learn it faster, but I don’t think the instructors will move you up just because you are a fast learner. And you could only learn the moves fast in another art only if the style is similar i.e. grappling arts with grappling arts and striking arts with striking arts.

I started Tae Kwon Do one year ago, and I’m not learning the moves any faster than someone who hasn’t done any Martial Arts before. Meaning because this is the first striking art I am doing, it is going to be not easier nor harder.

 

[Mark Lynn]

I have experience in this. 1) When I got my Ju Jitsu black belt it took me still around the same amount of time to get my judo black belt. However, it was MUCH simpler to learn the moves from judo since the form of Ju Jitsu I learned emphasized a lot of grappling. I’m pretty sure if it was the reason of the arts had a lot of similarities is what made to simple to learn it later on.

2) So basically you might learn it faster, but I don’t think the instructors will move you up just because you are a fast learner. And you could only learn the moves fast in another art only if the style is similar i.e. grappling arts with grappling arts and striking arts with striking arts.

3) I started Tae Kwon Do one year ago, and I’m not learning the moves any faster than someone who hasn’t done any Martial Arts before. Meaning because this is the first striking art I am doing, it is going to be not easier nor harder.

Kane

I added numbers to your post to address them.

1) Since it was brought up before how long did you study for your jujitsu BB, and how long for your Judo BB?

2) I agree that some instructors will keep you at the same time requirements (in grade) that the normal (beginner) students are. Which is the proper thing to do. My karate instructor did this when he started teaching publicly again, everyone went to white belt in his class even if you were black belt in another system. This was to assure quality in getting a BB from him, in his system.

However some instructors will keep you at those times to keep the money coming in as well.

In Judo and jujitsu was their commonality between your techniques? I know Judo came from jujitsu, however doesn't Judo emphasize controling (sport) techniques and jujitsu emphasize more striking and locking (damaging the person techniques). Does this cause you some brain lock? ("Oh sorry, I didn't mean to lock your arm as I threw you over my shoulder. I meant to do I hip throw. Give me your other hand and I'll help you up."

3) Starting TKD would be real different from doing Judo and Jujitsu. I can see where you wouldn't learn the techniques quicker. Now you have to kick and punch and such and not lock and control.

Depending upon your school, style or system of TKD, and instructor when you do self defense techniques (scenerios) you could probably incorperate your prior training and experience into your defenses.

Mark

 

[gusano]

i read somewhere that a black belt in judo has to compete as a purple (maybe brown???) belt in bjj tournaments. does anyone know if there is truth to this?

You may have read that but I can tell you that it is certainly not true.
Black belts in Judo are welcome to enter tournaments and compete with blackbelts in BJJ. In fact, if you are a blackbelt in any martial art, you could probably insist on competing in the black belt division and be allowed. However, unless your groundgame is black belt level, it wouldn't be advisable to do any of the above.

 

[Josh Oakley]

One thing I've seen from training black belts crossing over is that it doesn't really depend on the style as much as the individual in question. Take two guys from the same style and one will go through more quickly than the other. It depends on their skill within the style, and moreover their adaptability to a new style, as well as their commitment to learn the new style as well. I start everyone at white regardless. if they are ready to test they test, if not they train. nice and simple.

 

[LuckyKBoxer]

I have kind of avoided this thread, mostly because I did not like how the question for the poll was worded. It was too vague and the answers were too specific.

I look at it like this.

There are several ranges that any martial art can fit into. Some fit in one range, some fit in all ranges.

Firearms/projectile weapons range
Out of range for hand to hand
striking range
clinch range
Grappling range

also you can include weapons in there in the following combinations
opponent has weapon and you dont
you have weapon and opponent doesnt
you both have weapons
Throw multiple attackers into the mix and I think you have a fair representation of the possibilities.

you could name these whatever you want, and could even break them down further, or specify however you want, thats all semantics, and this is specific enough for the question.

given those ranges, and the human body there is only so much you can do. Martial Arts that focus on one specific range will be very similar to each other in regards to the movements and physical aspect, differences being mostly in preference in how to use those weapons, and strategy on how to take advantage of mistakes out opponent makes.

Comparing two martial arts that focus on different ranges and you are going to have two almost completely different sets of tools and strategies and preferences to work with.

I would say that a person who has a "Black Belt" and a proficient understanding of his art in a particular range, and sufficient athletic ability will be able to pick up the physical manifestation of any similar ranged art in little time at all, the x factor so to speak will be picking up the strategy, philosophy, and feel for that new art, while not allowing their existing knowledge to hold them back from accepting and using any strategies or philosophies of the new art.

I think a person who has a proficieny in at least one of the ranges will have a faster ability to pick up other arts that focus in other ranges then most people.

the keys are how often you are able to practice, how regularly you are able to practice, the quality of work out partner you have available, the quality of instruction you have available, the quality of your previous instruction, your physical athletic ability and condition, your understanding of strategy, your ability to look at new information with an open mind while maintaining a firm understanding on reason, and a commitment to growing in the arts.

I am sure there is alot more that can be added but this is what came to mind, and being a person that has trained, and trains in 4 different arts currently, American Kenpo, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Boxing, and Muay Thai... and plans(interested at least) on adding several more in the future.

To come closer to answering the question, I think that previous martial arts training in any art that is at an efficient level will help a person learn any other martial art at an accelerated pace over a completely untrained individual of like mind and thought. I think that that same training in an art of similar range will increase that learning pace at an even greater rate.
There is no simple direct timeframe because there are too many variables.
I do however think that a proficient martial artist could get be at or above what is considered a Black Belt level in another art before ever having started said art, and that they could indeed start and reach black belt level in an extremely short time in another art.

 

[LuckyKBoxer]

You may have read that but I can tell you that it is certainly not true.
Black belts in Judo are welcome to enter tournaments and compete with blackbelts in BJJ. In fact, if you are a blackbelt in any martial art, you could probably insist on competing in the black belt division and be allowed. However, unless your groundgame is black belt level, it wouldn't be advisable to do any of the above.

The point was not that they are not allowed to compete in the Black Belt division, but that they are not allowed to compete in the white belt division, regardless of no Jiu Jitsu experience

 

[LuckyKBoxer]

9th Dan in TKD (TSD, Shotokan etc.) means you have dedicated your life to the practice, teaching, and development of your Art. By definition, there aren't going to be very many 9th, 7th, or 6th Dans. How can you dedicate your life to Tae Kwon Do, Hapkido, Kendo, Kung Fu, AND whatever other style you claim to practice.

Second, how would you have time to practice all those even if you wanted to? 9th Dan requires about 40 years of your life, 7th Dan about 30, 6th Dan about 25. Unless you're going to live to be 500 years old, it cannot be done. Not well anyway. Doesn't matter whether you're American or Korean. A fake's a fake.

Posts like this irritate me and here is why.
I have seen high ranking black belts in different martial arts that hold a full time job and then have their school as well. Then you have those people that are full time martial artists.

You have person a. who trains at tops 20 hours a week, but most of that is spent teaching others and not directly training. You have person b who trains 80 hours a week, 30 hours + teaching and a bit less then 50 hours training, how is person b not going to get alot more out of martial arts period?
I really get irritated when people place their own limitations, and issues on everyone else. In my experience the people who make these comments are usually people that have a full time job, part time martial arts hobby, and are close minded to what and how they train. They often times assume they know all there is about their given art, and as such noone could be smarter or grasp more then they do, even though most likely they have not tried. They also often times never crosstrain, or work with another "expert" of another art.
I can honestly say I have never met or read from one single person who trains Martial arts full time with a passion anything along these lines.

If a martial art requires someone to train for 40 years to reach a certain level, then how many hours and training sessions is that exactly?
what if the martial artist doubles it?
what if he quadruples it?
what if he is twice as smart as the normal 40 year trained master?
what if he is twice as fast?
twice as strong?
twice as flexible?

there is simply too many variables to put any definitive numbers or statements on it.
The fact is there are alot of fakes out there.
There are alot of people who have been at one style for 40 years and still suck.
there are people would have been at an art for 5 years and are phenomenal.
the key is to look more at the substance then the packaging.
not place arbitrary numbers on these things based on someones own inhibitions, limitations, and hang ups.

 

[clfsean]

Dang... thread necromancy... 2004 til today... wow....

 

[LuckyKBoxer]

LOL I didn't even notice the dates, I just figured this thread got big quick, it got necrothreaded yesterday btw.. I didn't do it LOL

 

[Twin Fist]

a 5 year necrothread, thats impressive

 

[shihansmurf]

This thread must have been on the 5 year plan mentioned in the poll.

Congrats Thread!!!

Mark

 

[Samuraifan]

haha you can say that again, i just had to check the dates to make sure! Can't believe this thread has lasted this long. :headbangin:

 

[ap Oweyn]

Just to add another angle here, I think a lot of the concerns people have revolve around others in the class feeling like the supposedly new student is blowing past them in the ranking system. And I can see where that might bother some people. But the inverse is also true. A genuine yellow belt is in class with a supposed yellow belt (with years of background in a similar system) and wondering why the new yellow belt has much, much better technique than he does. That can be disheartening in its own right. So I think there's value in acknowledging a person's outside experience. Helps others put his current performance in context.


Stuart

 

[shihansmurf]

Very good point. A person that can legitimately perform a martial art at "black belt level", just isn't really a white belt simply because he started in a new school. Now, I'm pretty ambivalent about rank in general, so take this with a grain of salt, but simply letting the person wear their old rank and test through my syllabus has never caused any real problems in my school. To be fair though, there is no heirachy of authority in my class based on the belt color that a student has attained so the ranks are simply symbols of accomplishment, and indicators to the instructors as to what the student should, at a minimum, know of the system.

Mark

 

[ap Oweyn]

Very good point. A person that can legitimately perform a martial art at "black belt level", just isn't really a white belt simply because he started in a new school. Now, I'm pretty ambivalent about rank in general, so take this with a grain of salt, but simply letting the person wear their old rank and test through my syllabus has never caused any real problems in my school. To be fair though, there is no heirachy of authority in my class based on the belt color that a student has attained so the ranks are simply symbols of accomplishment, and indicators to the instructors as to what the student should, at a minimum, know of the system.

Mark

Yeah, I hear ya. I haven't participated in a ranking system in about 15 years myself. And I don't use one when I teach. But my feeling is that it's easy to overcomplicate this stuff. If a person comes in with a background that's comparable to what's being covered, then he or she is likely to pick things up rapidly. Holding him back in rank isn't really fooling anyone. It's not like the other "white belts" aren't going to notice that he kicks with far more aplomb than they do. They aren't idiots. So whether it's acknowledged with a belt or not, it should probably be addressed in some way or another.


Stuart