Determining Seniority....

[MJS]

So, how do you determine seniority?

I was over at Tim Hartmans today and one of the topics that came up is seniority in the arts.

From the various discussions I've seen, it seems there are only a few ways to decide this:
- Time in that art
- Time in all arts
- date of black belt rank in that art
- date of first black belt in any art.

So, would I (last rank blue, haven't trained since summer 2005) who started in 2001 be senior to someone who started after me but who is now a black belt? Is my wife (who has trained longer than I and holds a BB in kenpo) my senior even though I started Arnis before her and received my blue before she did?

Whatta y'all think about all this?

Kinda hard to say, for obvious reasons. I mean, time in grade and rank will vary from art to art. I've been in Kenpo for over 20, but if I were to go to a BJJ school, sure, I would out rank, in time, a BJJ purple belt, but the BJJ blue belt is going to be more senior than I, in that school.

When I started at my new Kenpo school, I still maintained by 3rd degree and of course time in the art, but compared to the black belts that were there from day one, in that school, I would be less senior, not necessarily by rank or time in, but simply as they've been there longer. Doesn't seem right, new person to a school, and you jump the food chain.

So, not comparing school to school, I would say that time in and rank.

 

[Grenadier]

So, how do you decide seniority in a room full of grandmasters, all who have different arts?

In those cases, whoever is hosting the event, wears the temporary crown of "first amongst equals."

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

So, how do you decide seniority in a room full of grandmasters, all who have different arts?

Really that is pretty hard, eh!

Within a system seniority is actually pretty easy. Move outside that system and compare it to another and well then you start to have some problems.

In a room full of Grand Masters, Founders, etc. I think it is just easier to treat everyone the same. Of course in all practicality it may not always be that easy.

In the end though people are people and personally I try to treat everyone great from someone who just started to some one who has been training 20, 30 or 40 years or more.

I am interested in every ones insight!

 

[khand50]

ive always pondered this question. i started training in martial arts 40 years ago, in 1969. i have cross trained in many arts over the years but havent always gotten rank in each art. i was primarily looking for the experience.
ive gone into classes as a white belt with more knowledge and experience in the arts than even the instructors. i went in with humility and a desire to learn the art, not to prove myself better than anyone or to challenge anyone. i believe in respecting everyone based on humanity, not rank or prestige or title.
currently i have started training with a fellow who is learning moy yat ving tsun and has been promoted to instructor in another art. a blended art. he doesnt have the background knowledge of the various arts that i have so we are trading information. he is also much younger than i am. but i didnt approach him as if i was someone important for him to bow down to or anything. im just a simple guy. i like all martial arts and enjoy learning about other people's approaches to training and teaching.
i see dan inosanto as the perfect example of being a good instructor and student. he is perpetually the ultimate student and studies freely with anyone who would have him. he doesnt come across as conceited or bragging because of his incredible background, and yet commands attention when he starts teaching or speaking because of his great knowledge and humility.
the chinese do it right. whoever started first is the older student. it is a sign of respect to those who came before you. rank is not as much a concern. theirs is more of a family oriented system than a military system. for me, if it all came down to who could beat whom, i would pull a gun and shoot first, then promote myself later. i say this because i dont see martial arts, true martial arts as only a way of fighting. it teaches us about combat, but it isnt limited to combat. if it was i would probably stop doing martial arts and buy a gun.
in the end, our belts and sashes and titles dont really mean anything if we let our egos get in the way of our humanity. i personally think that all the ranking systems and master titles should be wiped out. i agree with the term coach or guide, because all anyone can do is point you in the right direction. you have to take your own steps to actually get there. no one else can move you to train and to study and learn and grow.
one other aspect that i wanted to mention was this. by the time i was 18 i had collected and read over 300 books and over 300 magazines on martial arts. i had trained in hapkido for five years, judo and wrestling for four years, shorei ryu karate for five months, and tae kwon do for two years. my book and magazine studies were very intense. most black belts i knew had no knowledge of the martial arts other than that one they studied. i trained on an average of four to six or more hours each day during those years. i sparred with anyone who would.
in 1977 i was in a tae kwon do class and a fellow came in to learn. i taught him his first white belt form because he couldnt get it. then i went into the air force and came back almost four years later. he had gotten his black belt and was knowledgable only in tae kwon do. he knew nothing about any other arts and thought tae kwon do was superior to all other arts. was he my senior because of what he wore on his waist? or was i his senior because i started martial arts 8 years before he did? according to that style he was my senior in the class. and i joined the class to get more training. i didnt mind that he had his black belt and i took the time to learn from him. he even scolded me one day for not "settling down" with one system and training in it. years later we talked about that moment and he conceded that he didnt understand that i knew so much about the arts. he had quit training and teaching because he got burned out. i was still going. i think too many people place way too much importance on that belt and not enough importance on respecting each other and what they have learned and experienced and the time they have put into the arts as a whole.
but in the end, we arent going to change the way its done. maybe in our own schools or with our own students. but the general way of doing things will continue to go on. so thanks for listening and i appreciate reading everyone else's comments on this subject. and in the end, to each his own. have a great day.

 

[jks9199]

So, how do you decide seniority in a room full of grandmasters, all who have different arts?

Who's buying dinner for whom?

And I'm only half joking...

 

[Ken Morgan]

It all comes down to ego doesn’t it?

We have people in our class who have been training longer then me, are much older then me, but I hold a higher rank then they do, I consider them to be my senior. When I take a class, if they show up, I always defer to them, and they wave me off and tell me to teach, no ego from them or me there.

Likewise one of our juniors has been unemployed recently and has been very enthusiastic about the arts, she is there all the time plus extra time. She still has to work on her technique, but she remembers the basics more then I do. Again if I’m taking a class I have no issue with her correcting me or show techniques that I may not remember.

When high ranking guys all show up for a seminar, they’ll figure out amongst themselves who’s who, and where to place everyone.

I still like to view the MA as something without much ego, yes we all know folks who are complete asses, but for the most part we all want to learn and become better at our art, to do that we need to leave our egos at the door.

 

[jks9199]

Who's buying dinner for whom?

And I'm only half joking...

There are different types and forms of respect -- and they're all two way streets. The senior person is owed certain duties and considerations, and in return, they owe the junior person training and support. And I think real seniority shows through actions, not titles, belts, or anything else.

Most of the time, it doesn't matter outside of a system/formal setting, or in a clinic situation. If I'm ever in doubt, I generally treat a person with all the respect they might be due; I can always step back and reduce the respect (use their name rather than sir or title, etc.) but it's hard to make up for treating someone with less respect than they are (or believe they are) due.

 

[dbell]

I feel that everyone should treat everyone with the respect that they are due, which is total respect until they show you otherwise, then you should still treat them with respect...

If the event is a multi-art event, I would say the people with the highest rank in their art are the most senior people there for that art, and from there, based on the ranks in each art, the seniority goes down. Time in grade or time in art doesn't play, as based on current "status" in the arts, it is the belt that matters, not time. (Time can be very different as outlined above in other post.)

If the event is a single art event, the seniority goes the same way, by rank... (Makes it easier though, as all are "somewhat" close to the same grading we hope!!)

 

[Bob Hubbard]

So, if I'm reading this right, the consensus is that the senior person is the one with the highest rank, and when rank is equal, then it goes to skill on the mat and activity? That when you started, how long you have been training, and when you got your first black belt is irrelevant? Please correct me if I'm misreading. Thanks!

 

[blindsage]

I'm glad I'm not training in an art or at a school with belts and ranks beyond 'instructor' anymore. Show respect and you'll get respect. Have humility and you will learn more. Engage everyone with 'beginner's mind', and you'll go far.

 

[searcher]

Easy as pie. Ask the two or more people who thinks they are senior. The last to answer gets the prize, based on humility.

 

[spinny]

Where I train it goes by Rank, then Age. Nothing else — even with twins, one had to come out first! (And I know a set of twins. Invariably, the eldest lines up ahead.)

Of course there is proper respect for whoever based on their experience and skill. Like a guy who's been training for 30 years and ought to be a master, but is still a 2nd Dan, because he just hasn't tested. But everyone knows he has 30 years of experience and knowledge, and they show appropriate respect for that. But at the end of class, he lines up with the other 2nd Dans.

 

[spinny]

So, how do you decide seniority in a room full of grandmasters, all who have different arts?

Well, unless they were on neutral territory, the host grandmaster would act as a good host and the visitors would act as good guests. This generally has an air of politeness and all-around respect. Unless someone is rather conceited about their rank...
If it was a situation where rank needed to be formally hashed out, I'm sure they'd follow some sort of rank, then time or age. But I can't imagine anyone getting to picky about it when they don't practice the same art and have the same requirements for rank.

 

[KELLYG]

We generally go by rank then by age. I have occasionally felt uncomfortable, after belt promotion, lining up ahead of some to our students that have trained longer, and in my opinion, have better skill, but they usually will direct me ahead of them. I guess that is because I am an old fart. (lol) I did have a conversation with the head instructor on etiquette when around students from other schools/arts. His advice was to be respectful and polite but not to be awe of the rank because sometimes it is not earned and sometimes it is bought and the same rank does not translate well from art to art. Pretty much common sence I guess. As to a room full of grand masters, of different arts, who ranks higher, I'll let them worry about that. :angel:

 

[Telfer]

I still like to view the MA as something without much ego, yes we all know folks who are complete asses, but for the most part we all want to learn and become better at our art, to do that we need to leave our egos at the door.

In martial arts there is something I call The Great Divide.

On one side are all the people for whom MA is a puzzle they are trying to solve.

On the other side are all the people for whom MA is a vehicle for the Ego.
They are more interested in themselves than the art.

 

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Consistency is big with us.

If one guy has 2 years on the mats out off 3 inrolled and is a green belt, but he has taken 1-2 month breaks in between and what not, he is not thwe same as some one who has been enrolled for 2 years but is a consistant 2-3 x a week trainee, then I put him above the former.

Past arts exp. does not factor into our ranking and senority at all, allthough we allow you to utilize skills, attributes and techniques from your past training, as long as they work and make sense.

I have to dissagreee to a degree with Archangel, MA rans are similar (not the same) to Military ranks with us. All be it we are not big on people pushing their rank on others it's just it's good to have a line from the top to the very bottom and an understanding of where they are on it.

- A white belt is a Recruit.

- A Blue belt is a Private

- A Yellow belt is a PFC

- A Green belt is a Cprl. A Green belt is encouraged now to be helpfull to the ranks under him. He starts to take a Jr. leadership roll.
Green belt is a milestone with us, we expect him to be able to handle him self in combat with a good probability of coming out on top.
We want him to be able to convey techniques and start the beginings of teaching by taken a senior roll when training with an underbelt.
(We discourage Yellows, Blues and Whites to say much about the technques while training with the same or lower rank, because he does not know enough, so him trying to instruct is a waste of everones valuable mat time. A green is now encouraged to give tips and critiques.)

- 3rd Kyu Brown belt - Sgt , the bar goes up.

- 2nd Kyu Brown belt - Gunny Sgt- An instructor in training.

- 1st Kyu - Master Sgt - He is now in the 6 months to 1 year probation period for Shodan, he is being watched and coached as an Instructor. Certian tecnical points we have been keeping mum about are taught .
We have seinor Brown belt who acts as our Sgt at Arms and is the representative of the Kyu ranks when we have our meetings.
It's his job to be their voice. To relay things that maybe they don't feel they can say to us directly so they do it through him.
We are still a small, 1 Dojo org and system, so I hope the guys can come to my partener and myself and feel free to say anything they want. We encourage that, but it is good to give people the option of going to a representative. 20 years from now we could have multiple schools, so this will probably be a more needed role at that point.

Brown Belts are also expected to be substitute Instructors if the need arises.

- Shodan - Lt. (Platoon Cmdr.) You can start your own Dojo/ Study group but can not promote to Shodan yourself. Even if you never want to teach your own class, you will be put on the spot durring classes and asked to teach a technique or 3.
You also are a go to Uke for those above.

- Nidan - Capt. (Company Cmdr.) Can promote to Shodan, To us this is as probably as far as you will get in ranking if you do not want to directly instruct.

- Sandan- Major. Like a Major, They are to work closely with the 2, 4th Dans in our System (we only go up to 4th at the present and forseeable future) He is like an XO or a S-1, O-1 ect.)

-Yondan- 4th Dan- As myself and my training partner of the last 12 years parted ways with our old Sensei and his Org. We had to start our own system/Org. but unlike many who do that, we as a 37 year old and 29 year old think that it would be classless of us to self promote to 10th Dan Soke, GrandPooBah and all that. 4th was our last awarded rank and we are cool with that. We will probably self promote to 6th Dan in about 10 years and cap the ranks at 5th dan, leaving 6 for the 2 Co-heads and whoever succeeds us.

Thats a break down allthough I use noraml western Military ranks for fimiliarity, really we are more like the Roman system. Hence we have 2 executives, like Rome had 2 Consuls, a 3rd BB would be a Proconsul (Gov. Army cmdr.), a 2nd would be like a Legate ( General, Legion cmdr * Division*) and a 1st Dan would be like a Tribune. (Col. Cmdr of a Cohort *Battalion*)

Everyone is encouraged to look at their rank as not something to use to lord over others, it something that stands for your responsability to help and lead those under you.

Our departed Sempai was a Col. in SOCOM and having known some of the guys who served under him and the way he was with us, he used his rank and pull to help his men get the mission done and he took damn good care of his men and would put himself in the hotseat to protect his guys. He led by example, doing PT and still keeping his Jump Quals and training with his Troops when he could have just commanded. He had a Leonidas/ Alexander/ John Wayne vibe to him. He is an example that we all carry with us and do our best to live up to.

Besides SD and the fun of it, I teach because I love our crew, they are my family. I serve them, not them me.

 

[J Ellis]

So, if I'm reading this right, the consensus is that the senior person is the one with the highest rank, and when rank is equal, then it goes to skill on the mat and activity? That when you started, how long you have been training, and when you got your first black belt is irrelevant? Please correct me if I'm misreading. Thanks!

Sounds good to me. There is a difference between seniority and mastery or even relative mastery in comparison to other individuals. Seniority seems more a matter of organizational heirarchy, though hopefully it would be accompanied by considerable ability.

Joel

 

[khand50]

dr. jigoro kano created the belt ranking system. or at least, he is given credit for first using it. originally, the only belts worn were black for instructor and white for student. this is information i just got from wikipedia, for those interested. plus, i have read about this in various books in the past. but the wikipedia information is quickly accessable.
so, who gave jigoro kano his black belt? how did he earn it if he created it? yes, he had the skills and proved himself in the ring and in the street. so, do we all go back to the old way of challenging each other to determine seniority. i believe one person who posted on here mentioned that the better fighter is the senior. seniority in a job is usually determined by who has been there the longest. we are in america so we can use the american standard for this model. seniority is one who has been doing something longer than another. it has nothing to do with who is a better fighter. that is an altogether different thing. even so, do you think that an 80 year old man who has been doing martial arts for 60 years could beat a 30 year old man who is in his prime and is a professional fighter? in our martial fantasies, im sure many would hope so. but reality suggests that the better conditioned younger fighter would probably win. does that make him a senior to the older, more experienced man?
the belt system exists for only one reason. to be able to know at a glance what a student should know at each level in that particular system. over the years other things have been attached to the importance of belt ranks but essentially that is it.
the basis of martial arts, due to is very name, is self defense. that is acknowledged by most people. martial, which means military or war-like, and art, which means practical skill, system of rules for certain actions. so a martial art is a system of military or war like skills. but of course, we who have been doing martial arts for many years know the other benefits from training. if i only wanted self defense, i would buy a gun and quit training. martial arts has no real place in our modern world when it comes to defending yourself against others who may be armed with guns and various weapons.
the martial arts rises above mere fighting. we use the physical combat to express ourselves but our learning goes much deeper. well, it is supposed to. the rank system was ok when it was respected and rank was given out appropriately. a person rarely got promoted to black belt in less than six years. now the mcdojo's exist with their black belt "plans" and you buy your time in grade. im not saying that all schools are this way, but the corruption of the belt ranking system suggests that a new way needs to be made. the jkd people are simply using beginner, intermediate, advanced, or instructor levels. but now the instructor levels are being associated with the black belt ranks of other systems. what is the point?
i will stand on the idea that seniority is or should be based on length of time in martial arts.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Determining Seniority....

Rock, Paper, Scissors

 

[Archangel M]

I have to dissagreee to a degree with Archangel, MA rans are similar (not the same) to Military ranks with us.

The only similarity is that there is a hierarchy. Military rank is a vehicle for military command. Nobody in a dojo is going to "command" me to do squat.