Determining Seniority....

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

The only similarity is that there is a hierarchy. Military rank is a vehicle for military command. Nobody in a dojo is going to "command" me to do squat.

True it is the same but it is heavily influenced by Military rank structure and no one here "Commands" anything but they do lead.

I have found in both work and MA that things work better when people know where they stand and where they can go. Less arguements, confussion and emotions and more getting the mission done.

 

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

"if i only wanted self defense, i would buy a gun and quit training. martial arts has no real place in our modern world when it comes to defending yourself against others who may be armed with guns and various weapons."

Then I guess if some scumbag shoves a gun in your face, you should just capitulate and hope he does not kill you?
As has been pointed out by many here with firearms training, many shootings happen within Hand to hand range. Struggles over a firearm happen all the time, sometimes people with zero training actually wrench guns away from people. Both bad guys taken them from good guys and visa versa.

Hand to hand will always be relavent untill man us no more.

 

[IcemanSK]

Many moons ago, I sat on a testing board testing for a friend's 1st gup test. I was a 2nd Dan at the time. Year later I went to visit him at the school he ran. He was then a 5th Dan in 2 Arts...I was still a 2nd Dan (the reason for that is a whole other Oprah). He introduced me to his students as his senior in the martial arts. I wouldn't have guessed he'd have done that.

I think seniority has to do with continuous time training, rather than rank. I have no problem standing with the other 3rd Dans. I train with kids who are higher rank than I despite the fact I have more years in the Art than they have years on the planet. We respect one another and are friendly. But without my bringing it up, they call me "sir."

 

[khand50]

i should have paraphrased that differently. i have actually argued that point with people in the past. i should have said, i have heard people say that the martial arts has no place in today's world of guns and knives. i love training in the martial arts. i would do it even if there was no violence or need for self defense in the world. and yes, i do understand that people have used it successfully in close quarters with armed assailants. thanks for pointing that out for me.

 

[Jdokan]

tough/great question...I have 40 years as a practitioner having my 6th degree in kempo/kenpo...Yet I now am practicing Pencak Silat and consider those that are there longer than me my senior....

 

[Sukerkin]

So, if I'm reading this right, the consensus is that the senior person is the one with the highest rank, and when rank is equal, then it goes to skill on the mat and activity? That when you started, how long you have been training, and when you got your first black belt is irrelevant? Please correct me if I'm misreading. Thanks!

Aye, you are misreading me at least

Rank and date of commission - easy as that. It can get complicated if there are other circumstances involved (such as a high rank who had not trained properly in years) but that is easily smoothed over by simple decency and humility from all involved.

When rank is equal, then time in grade matters ... but a person with any sense of their responisbilities will voluntarily waive 'seniority' if they know that their 'Office' is not matached by their present ability.

As an example of things can become complicated, before he passed away, one of my sensei had not been able to stand for some years but he still taught us some important lessons about zanshin, seme and kensen whilst seating in a chair. Even if he hadn't had all those decades 'in harness', we'd still have respected him regardless for his sheer doggedness. Anyone who dared say "He can't even stand, how can he be senior?!" would have gotten short shrift from us.

 

[Sukerkin]

The only similarity is that there is a hierarchy. Military rank is a vehicle for military command. Nobody in a dojo is going to "command" me to do squat.

And if people won't do as they are told then they are out. No 'rugged individualists' in a class involving the waving of swords in confined spaces .

I can understand someone not wanting to be 'told what to do' in absolutely every aspect of their life but if they're not willing to abide by the discipline and organisation of the dojo then they will not long be there.

 

[Archangel M]

And if people won't do as they are told then they are out. No 'rugged individualists' in a class involving the waving of swords in confined spaces .

I can understand someone not wanting to be 'told what to do' in absolutely every aspect of their life but if they're not willing to abide by the discipline and organisation of the dojo then they will not long be there.

There is a difference in "abiding by the rules" and suborning yourself to a "command structure". And there is a difference between martial arts rank and "authority". People who think that a black belt means that you have "command authority" are in it for ego and people who believe that pap are ripe for cultism.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Bob et al,

In our club it is:
1) Rank from that club.
2) Time at that rank as an active member
If A person had left and then came back the most active or recently active member at that rank may be given the order for where to stand.
3) then Age.

I personally care not where I stand. First or last or in the middle. If someone else wants to stand on my right for some honor then more power to them. If they are happy or happier than I am good with this. If they want to stand to my left then ... , .

I have no problems sweeping mats with the white belts or lowest ranked present.

If it is a place where a bunch of people are coming together of the same art or different arts, and all are being treated as equals, one could do alphabetical or reverse alphabetical. Swap it around. If too many to do easily then one could go with age in general. Age is a nice way to give respect to your elders.

 

[Mark Lynn]

Bob

I believe it is instructor rank in the particular style or dojo first for normal classes.

If it's a get together workout type of a thing with various instructor grades than it's generally who's senior by rank and over all training time in the arts.

I know a gentleman who I found out started in the martial arts about 7 years earlier than I, yet I out rank him under my instructor whom he started training with about 10 years after I. I have higher rank in BBs in other systems than he does. Yet on a rank test for my students I referred to him (as I introduced him) as my senior in the martial arts. He started before me and has continued training in the martial arts earning instructor level, I believe him to be my senior in the martial arts.

At a new years work out though at my instructor's dojo this gentleman lines up below me in line because I am senior to him in that dojo.

At kobudo class I line up with the below dan grades because I haven't dan rank in that kobudo class even though I have more time in the arts than several of the black belt level instructors.

It shouldn't really be a big deal though. If I'm at a large group of various black belts for training, as long as I line up at the end of the black belt line I'm OK.

Mark

 

[Ken Morgan]

And if people won't do as they are told then they are out. No 'rugged individualists' in a class involving the waving of swords in confined spaces .

There is nothing worse then being at a seminar or a class and Sensei teaches something, and some *** pulls his/her sword out when everyone is still crowded together, to copy what Sensei has just shown us.

 

[jks9199]

To me, time matters -- but it's not the sole decider, like some sort of union job.

But it's just not that simple. A lot depends on the role a person is assuming, too.

 

[Guro Harold]

Also places like NC are a "right to work" state, so seniority doesn't apply.

j/k

 

[Teufel Hunden]

Rank and date of commission - easy as that. It can get complicated if there are other circumstances involved (such as a high rank who had not trained properly in years) but that is easily smoothed over by simple decency and humility from all involved.

When rank is equal, then time in grade matters ... but a person with any sense of their responisbilities will voluntarily waive 'seniority' if they know that their 'Office' is not matched by their present ability.

I agree with this post. Especially the second paragraph. IMO, that's really what it boils down to. Add in some humility, and you can't go wrong.