Receiving Black Belt in multiple arts

[Turner]

I've trained in a variety of different arts. For the most part I've found that most instructors tend to encourage a cross training student to wear the rank that they've previously earned in another art. They are just required to stay at that rank until they have learned all of the information (basics, forms, self defense techniques, drills and principles) and skill required to be promoted. Depending on the similarities between the two arts this could be anywhere from several years to mere months. I've never seen an instructor fill out a certificate for equal rank.

I've met two instructors that have required the student to go back to white belt and start over no matter what. I tend to shy away from this type of instructor because it seems a little bit fishy. I want my journey to last as long as possible. It is a life long journey for me, no matter what so I really don't care about taking the extra time. It seems to me that instructors who force someone to go back to white belt is mostly looking after their own interests and not the interests of the student. Money... They want to be able to charge the testing fees.

Instructors have to worry about their student's egos. The ego has no real place in the martial arts, it is because of ego that we have so many sokes running around and so much political dissent in the arts. It is a shame, but we do have to worry about it. When someone has earned a certain rank, no matter the art, they are proud of it. To tell them that they need to wear a white belt again is basically telling them that all of their past training was a waste of time and they aren't going to take it very well. Allow the student the chance to be humble and remove their own belt from their waist and accept that they are ignorant of your art. To force someone to be humble is to humiliate them. It is never the instructors place to do that. As an instructor you wish to encourage humility and to encourage a person to realize their potential. Not to say that the work that they've done is worthless.

 

[Disco]

Lots of good and interesting viewpoints. Now this is the kind of thread that I consider what MT is all about.

My $.02 worth. Training in a completely totally different style (ie. TKD to Aikido) you'll have to start at the beginning to understand the basic principles. That's not to say that at some place in time, within the scope of training, that the TKD skills won't be able to manifest themselves into the flow of the Aikido training. That's just an added bonus.

For styles that are similiar (exception forms). I personally place all striking arts into one basket. The viewpoints on the how and why's may differ, but the excecution of techniques are not that unsimiliar. Therefor, I would prefer to have that person wear the rank they attained and I would greatly anticipate that they would excell rather quickly through the assigned cirriculum. Now I know this statement will cause some irritation with some, but to me a block is a block, a kick is a kick and a punch is a punch. It's after the initial defensive movements that establishes the differences between the styles and that difference is just a preferance on how to dispatch the advisary. A rose comes in many colors, but it's still a rose.

Crosstraining to me is mandatory for understanding the true essance of the arts. From my readings, the Masters of old followed this practice, why should'nt we?
:asian:

 

[DAC..florida]

WOW Disco,

I couldnt of said it better myself, so I wont!
:asian:

 

[andurilking2]

i think it should take the same amount of time for each belt

 

[Turner]

andurilking2, please elaborate, why do you believe it should take the same amount of time per each belt?

 

[andurilking2]

i beleive each martial art is fairly unique and regaurdless of whether you know a jumping half crescent kick you should still relearn it according to the martial art that you are taking.

 

[Turner]

Thanks, interesting perspective.

 

[Kempojujutsu]

My theory here is you put 5 different Shuri-Te style master out on the floor. To perform and all they did was kata, and basic techniques and self defense. Which one was Matsumra orthodox Shorin-ryu, Okinawan Kempo, Shorinji-ryu, Matsubayashi-ryu, Bugeikan, Ryukyu Shorin-ryu. you probable could not till. They are all very close in the type of kata they did. What usually sets them apart is their interpretation of the kata. I feel that one could easily pick up another style.
bob :asian:

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by andurilking2
i beleive each martial art is fairly unique and regaurdless of whether you know a jumping half crescent kick you should still relearn it according to the martial art that you are taking.

I don't think its that simple. Theres more to consider.:asian:

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu
My theory here is you put 5 different Shuri-Te style master out on the floor. To perform and all they did was kata, and basic techniques and self defense. Which one was Matsumra orthodox Shorin-ryu, Okinawan Kempo, Shorinji-ryu, Matsubayashi-ryu, Bugeikan, Ryukyu Shorin-ryu. you probable could not till. They are all very close in the type of kata they did. What usually sets them apart is their interpretation of the kata. I feel that one could easily pick up another style.
bob :asian:

You hit it on the money. Although there are differances and some people in here do know the differances in those styles mentioned. To the average person or martial artist from a completely differant style, they probably would not be able to notice the diffances at all.

A Shodan in Hohan Sokens Shorin Ryu should be able to pass a Shodan test in other branches of the Shorin Ryu tree with minimul changes. And Shorin Ryu is simiar to other styles too, such as Ryu Kyu Kempo I beleive. The same goes to the other styles that are similar because upline somewhere in time their lineages crossed paths.

Some arts have only changed minimally over the years while others made dramatic changes. But if we are talking Karate with the Okinowan link, then we are all martially related (almost).

I don't beleive that there are any major differances to learn except at a higher level such as in the higher Dan ranks and that knowledge will be as good as your instructor.:asian:

 

[Rick Tsubota]

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu
My theory here is you put 5 different Shuri-Te style master out on the floor. To perform and all they did was kata, and basic techniques and self defense. Which one was Matsumra orthodox Shorin-ryu, Okinawan Kempo, Shorinji-ryu, Matsubayashi-ryu, Bugeikan, Ryukyu Shorin-ryu. you probable could not till. They are all very close in the type of kata they did. What usually sets them apart is their interpretation of the kata. I feel that one could easily pick up another style.
bob :asian:

You can tell the difference between Matsumra orthodox Shorin-ryu, Okinawan Kempo, Shorinji-ryu, Matsubayashi-ryu, Bugeikan, Ryukyu Shorin-ryu.

For example some of them have kata that are the same and some that aren't, even the ones that are the same kata in name aren't don't the same way.
The kusanku done in one style is not always the same as in another.
The technique interpretation is very different too. I know this because I was a student of Mr. Nakamura/Mr. Oyata in Okinawa Kenpo and a student of Mr. Nagamine in Shorin Ryu.

 

[Rick Tsubota]

Originally posted by akja
A Shodan in Hohan Sokens Shorin Ryu should be able to pass a Shodan test in other branches of the Shorin Ryu tree with minimul changes. And Shorin Ryu is simiar to other styles too, such as Ryu Kyu Kempo I beleive. The same goes to the other styles that are similar because upline somewhere in time their lineages crossed paths.

This is sort of true, but some of the basics are different as well.

Most Okinawan teachers won't give you much important information about their style unless they know you for a while.
They want to see what kind of person you are.

 

[Shuri-te]

While many students move well from one Shorin Ryu system to another, some have real trouble. While the kata are done similarly, there are real differences. And the problem is that some students are resistant to change. They like the way they do particular techniques, and sometimes approach new ideas with resistance. There is a tendency to think their "way" is the correct way and have difficulty letting go. This can really slow the transition.

And surprisingly, sometimes this is not that deliberate. They often cannot see how their movements differ from what is being taught. I have plenty of personal experience here because I frequent many different dojos. There have been numerous times where I have not seen how my movements differed from the Sensei's, even when the differences were fairly obvious.

On the flip side, I have had many students from different styles come to my train in my dojo. In general, Shotokan students seem to have surprising difficulty changing from back stance to cat stance. Funny, I had problems doing the opposite.

Also many systems have more significant differences than just kata. In some systems, they have their own sets of techniques that must be mastered. In Shidokan, a Kobayashi art, Seikichi Iha teaches sequences of bunkai that are little kata themselves, with techniques done against four attackers.

In Okinawan Kempo, RyuTe, Seibukan and Koeikan, they practice bogu kumite, full contact karate with Kendo gear. It takes some real training to get good at Bogu.

In Bugeikan and RyuTe, there is a heavy emphasis on self defense applications. It's more like the old forms of ti. Locking techniques are far more numerous, and these take time to master if you are unfamiliar with them.

Some systems have kobudo as part of the art (Matsumura Orthodox, RyuTe, Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu) and the kobudo kata are not shared from system to system as the empty hand are.

The point is that there is much to differentiate the Shorin Ryu arts. For a shodan entering one of these systems, they shouldn't be overconfident about how soon equivalent rank will come. While it won't take as long to get to Shodan is it does from white belt, it can, in some dojos, take longer than a year.

 

[Rick Tsubota]

Originally posted by Shuri-te

In Okinawan Kempo, RyuTe, Seibukan and Koeikan, they practice bogu kumite, full contact karate with Kendo gear. It takes some real training to get good at Bogu.

In Bugeikan and RyuTe, there is a heavy emphasis on self defense applications. It's more like the old forms of ti. Locking techniques are far more numerous, and these take time to master if you are unfamiliar with them.

Some systems have kobudo as part of the art (Matsumura Orthodox, RyuTe, Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu) and the kobudo kata are not shared from system to system as the empty hand are.

When I trained Okinawa Kenpo in Okinawa under Mr. Nakamura and Mr Oyata the emphasis on bogu training was to improve power and accuracy in punching. Their idea was if you could do damage to someone that was wearing the bogu gear you would have no trouble in real life situations.
Training in bogu then was very difficult because there were many good fighters in the dojo at the time, people like Joe Lewis and so on were there in the dojo often. I train in Mr. Oyata's art that is now caled RyuTe but was formerly called Ryukyu Kempo with Mr. Rousselot, his training is identical to what I did in Okinawa back in the 1960's, very serious, very intense. Although I am his sempai because I trained with his teacher, Mr. Oyata, back in the 1960s and got shodan, he is my sempai in technique and skill. He is very skilled.

The head of Bugeikan is a good friend of Mr. Oyata who is the head of RyuTe. I think they even made a martial arts association together many years ago.

 

[Kempojujutsu]

Once you have gotten to Black belt level,I feel that it may be easier to pick up/ figure out techniques and theories from different styles of MA. Not saying you have master that style or anything. Any Opinons on this?
Bob:asian:

 

[Shuri-te]

KempoJuJutsu said:

Once you have gotten to Black belt level,I feel that it may be easier to pick up/ figure out techniques and theories from different styles of MA. Not saying you have master that style or anything. Any Opinons on this?

Let's go back to your original statement:

Let say someone has a black belt in style A and they decide to study Martial Art B which is similar (kata's /forms are different)

I think there are lots of variables but two seem to me to be most important. 1. How much a system pays attention to refined movement, and 2. How much grappling is in a system.

Many systems, even with different kata may have a lot of similarity. There is a lot of block-kick-punch karate out there where you learn basic movements and combinations, and do a lot of kumite. A lot of this might be pretty similar in another system and much of this might be transferable.

However, there are some schools where there simply is not an emphasis on refinement of technique. And if you come from one of those systems, and go to one where everything has to be done just so, then it can be an uphill battle. However, if you came from a system where the teacher and senior students were sticklers on getting things right, then you learn to have an eye for how movements are done, and that can be transferable. If you look at kata in school A and think "clean kata" and you can look at kata in school B and say "sloppy kata", you will know that the student from school A will have an easier going than a student from school B when switching schools.

But I think the biggest difference is the amount of grappling a school does. These skills are completely foreign to those that don't practice them, and many, many schools practice little or no grappling. In comparison, there are many systems that have both the block-kick-strike of karate, and lots of grappling as well. It's similar to the MMA approach, which is done increasingly in traditional karate dojos.

Here's one skill that JuJutsu people learn early. They relax, and use their bodies to do much of the work. Not only is it important to the execution of traditional JuJutsu techniques, but in randori, tension is your enemy. You have to be supple. But some karateka never learn this skill. Some of these kick-punch dojo students want to flex for every part of every technique they do and put arm power in everything, just as if they were doing their blocks and strikes. Some of these students can have significant difficulty making the transition to more grappling oriented karate systems.

I think in the future, we should see more differentiation in the arts, as instructors in block-kick-strike dojos get exposed to grappling and start incorporating more and more into their art. One motivation instructors have in many areas is that they are in a competitive martial arts market. Teachers are losing students to BJJ, and MT and other arts in part because these systems are more tuned to street fighting than to the fantasy fighting of jiyu kumite found in traditional karate schools, where one strike to the solar plexus is the goal of the fighting.

In my town we have a really traditional TKD master who has incorporated groundfighting into his curriculum. This guy is about as straightline TKD as you get. Heavy, heavy focus on tournament sparring, and no surprises, his students clean up at competitions.

But he too has been bitten by the MMA bug. He watches the UFC events just like the rest of us and realizes there is lots more to fighting than flashy kicking. And he, like many of us, realize we are doing a great disservice to our students if we turn them out on the street thinking that simple block-kick-strike techniques, and kumite is going to prepare them to defend against a good street fighter.

IMO, as we see this increasing use of grappling in more traditional arts, it will make the transition from a non-grappling system to a grappling one, more difficult.

 

[Mark Lynn]

Interesting thread.

I've had experience in several different areas or points that have been brought up on this thread through out my martial arts journey and so here is my .02 cents for what it is worth.

I have been involved with the MA for over 20 years now, and due to moving and such I have gotten the opportunity to have trained in several different systems/styles and earned instructors rank in a few of them.

1) I earned a brown belt in American TKD and relocated and started studying Wado ryu. There the instructor kept me at that rank but I needed to test in a certain amount of time and learn the material for that rank.

2) When due to relocating I have worked out with American TKD schools I have worn my rank in American TKD.

3) At an Isshinryu school that I helped teach a American TKD class, when I wanted to take Isshinryu under the instructor I bought a white belt and showed up for his Isshinryu class. He made me wear my black belt.

4) I took Inosanto blend Kali from an instructor for a while (year and half to two years or so) and then switched to Presas Arnis under Hock Hochheim. I tested for Lakan (1st black)(another year and 1/2) and had GM Remy watch the tape of the test (he had airplane trouble so he couldn't be there for it) and he signed my certificate.

5) Prior to taking my Lakan test under Hock, I was tested as a blue belt in Modern Arnis at one of the camps, then three months later tested for Lakan (under Hock). However I was told that Hock wasn't teaching me Modern Arnis, that it was different therefore I was only a blue belt in Modern Arnis. (It was three years later that I tested for Lakan in Modern Arnis.

6) However GM Ernesto Presas kept me at the rank I received from Hock in his system of Arnis.

7) Now wanting to get some more training in (on a more regular basis) I've just started taking a class in Pekiti Tirsa Kali. As a beginner once more.

On how long it will take a person to switch from one style to another depends upon your experience (background), commitment in learning the new system and the emptying of your cup of your old system.

In PT Kali they don't ever (I'm told) grab the stick since they treat it as a bladed weapon. Well this negates the majority of my Presas Arnis (Modern Arnis and Kombatan Arnis) since they treat a stick as a stick plus they treat it as a bladed weapon at times (depends upon the technique being practiced). Also the techniques and stratagies behind the system are different, some striking and foot work differences, knife work as well. So in order to learn this system or to train with them I must do their techniques in class (or I would be disruptive) so I must empty my cup. If I won't do this than it won't work.

Switching from Akido to TKD or vice a versa is along the same lines. One art hits and kicks and the other blends and throws. Ones hard (TKD) and one is softer in response (Akido) therefore I think you again must empty your cup and learn the one art.

Is it better to learn one system or several (Jack of all trades and master at none or Master of one)? It's up to the individual. The Isshinryu instructor has basically except for a brief period where he earned a 2nd dan in TKD) has mainly studied Isshinryu. And he is happy and a pheunomial martial artist. He has probably forgotton all of the TKD he learned 20 years ago. Just like now I have put aside the majority of the TKD I learned as well.

However it was the TKD and Wado ryu base that taught me to move and such that I was able to apply in my Arnis training. And my Arnis training helped me to understand my TKD basics, forms, better as well.

How long it takes is up to the person and the systems he is studying.

Respectfully submitted
Mark

 

[Mr.karate]

I'm just wondering if two arts are so simillar what is the point of trying to get a second blackbelt why not just try to further yourself in one main art. The only real reason I see to studying more then one art is if one is for hand to hand combat and the other is a style of kobudo just my opinion. What do others her think?

Justin

 

[Shuri-te]

Justin,

There are lots of reasons. Sometimes you move. Sometimes your dojo closes up or your teacher moves. Sometimes you find someone in a related system that might have much to offer, or teach a class more suited to your desires. (More or less kumite, more or less kata, more or less self-defense.)

And the unfortunate truth is that sometimes you may have an experience that leaves a bad taste in your mouth. Maybe the charges are unfair, or some students are allowed to beat on others unfairly, or maybe your Sensei is just not the greatest guy in the world.

 

[DAC..florida]

I have a black belt in three different styles, they are all similiar and I have no problem's or complecation with this.
:asian: