Real World Attacks

[puunui]

Let's take a look at full contact, as well as boxing. In training a competitor/boxer wears protection such as hand tape, gloves and a mouth piece. What is the reason? To protect the hands from injury and/or being cut. Herein lies the issue, you (generic you) won't have these items in a real world attack. The chance of injuring the hands, particularly when striking the face/head is substantial. Anyone that has broken a knuckle, sprained a wrist, cracked a metacarpal etc knows that in addition to being painful, it can interfere with otherwise simple tasks i.e. using a cell phone to call for help, utilize car keys to initiate an escape (or to unlock a door), manipulate an improvised or concealed weapon etc. Damage to the hands may reduce the use of the hand to effect escape, further defend against attack or assist another. Furthermore, if the hand is cut, for example by punching someone in the mouth or other area of the head (which bleeds pretty readily) we now have to be concerned with blood-born pathogens. This is a real concern, particularly these days with the use of intravenous drugs, poor living conditions etc. I cannot emphasis this enough! Therefore boxing or continuous strikes to the head with unprotected hands is not the best of possible options.

So there is a possibility of hurting your hands if you hit someone in the head with them. Shouldn't you be saying this to all the people who think that face punching can neutralize a taekwondo competitor whose arms are dangling down by their sides as they bounce up and down like a jack hammer? Doesn't that apply to them more so than to a taekwondo competitor who some argue cannot punch?

 

[Earl Weiss]

So laying your weapon on the floor so that your attacker can pick it up and use it against you is preferable to handing the weapon back to your attacker so he can use it against you?

Right, then when he bends down to pick it up you kick the snot out of him

 

[puunui]

Right, then when he bends down to pick it up you kick the snot out of him

How are you going to do that after you turn your back to get to your original place for more practice, which is how you train for these things?

 

[Kong Soo Do]

So there is a possibility of hurting your hands if you hit someone in the head with them.

Yes sir, it can be a factor. In addition to an injury that reduces/prevents further defensive action with that hand, blood born pathogens as I mentioned is a serious consideration. We go through yearly training on this subject (blood borne pathogens) in addition to other training. In fact, I'm scheduled for early October for my re-certification training. Better forms of 'active defense' would be open hands, forearms, edge-of-hand, elbows etc preferably to soft target areas such as the side of the head, brachial plexus, solar plexus, joints etc. Now, nothing works on everyone all the time, and sometimes you have to take what you can get, so take what I'm offering within context please.

From personal experience, I have had the greatest positive results with elbows, forearms and edge-of-hand strikes (when it has been necessary and appropriate to use a strike or to set up for a lock, escort or throw).

 

[Kong Soo Do]

You guy's are throwing out a lot of valuable info that i'm sure is appreciated by many of the non posters. And, you are doing it in a very thought out manor.

Thank you. That is my intent. I'm all for an honest, respectful exchange of ideas and information. Disagreements will arise, but hopefully we've turned this thread back into a good one. Glenn has asked some legitimate questions which has allowed me to expound in greater detail. None of us knows everything, so hopefully this (and other) threads will have something(s) that we can all take away and put in the tool box.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Thank you. That is my intent. I'm all for an honest, respectful exchange of ideas and information. Disagreements will arise, but hopefully we've turned this thread back into a good one. Glenn has asked some legitimate questions which has allowed me to expound in greater detail. None of us knows everything, so hopefully this (and other) threads will have something(s) that we can all take away and put in the tool box.

Well said. I really cant believe some people would cease coming to martial talk because people have opinions that differ to theirs and wont change that opinion simply because someone tells them otherwise. Its as if they expect us to go "oh, to think i was wrong all these years, good thing i came here and was set straight". Both viewpoints are equally valid but they are "opinions".

 

[Earl Weiss]

How are you going to do that after you turn your back to get to your original place for more practice, which is how you train for these things?

Don't know who "you"' have been watching. .

 

[Cyriacus]

So there is a possibility of hurting your hands if you hit someone in the head with them. Shouldn't you be saying this to all the people who think that face punching can neutralize a taekwondo competitor whose arms are dangling down by their sides as they bounce up and down like a jack hammer? Doesn't that apply to them more so than to a taekwondo competitor who some argue cannot punch?

Im just going to drop in quickly here.

Im sure They can Punch. But if there was more punching in competitive sparring, the hands would no longer be at the sides. Which leads to, why isnt there much punching in competitive sparring?
That isnt a question i dont have any inkling of the answer to, but discussing it myself would make me a part of the conversation.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

How are you going to do that after you turn your back to get to your original place for more practice, which is how you train for these things?

Don't know who "you"' have been watching.

It isn't who he's been watching, but an extension of the point you were making about carrying training habits into real encounters.

• You spoke of a bouncer who let go of a violent drunk because the drunk tapped.

• Then you spoke of your instructor who instructed you to put a weapon down after the take away because of guys handing it back to the attacker due to their extending habits from the training environment into real world encounters.

• Presumably, you don't kick the snot out of your training partner when he picks up the weapon you just laid down, but instead, return to your original position.

Regardless of whether or not you turn your back, or perform some other action that one can safely perform in a training environment, you will have habits pertaining to that environment that are not appropriate in a violent encounter.

Puunui's point, and my own which I made in a separate post, is that there will always be something that you do in the dojo/dojang that "will get you killed" in a real fight. It is unavoidable.

Unless you do all of your training by storming crack houses and playing Batman with the drug dealers and junkies, who may or may not be armed (and somehow survive or stay out of jail long enough to derive any value from the training), a training environment will never equate to real life, regardless of how realistic you try to make it.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Im just going to drop in quickly here.

Im sure They can Punch. But if there was more punching in competitive sparring, the hands would no longer be at the sides. Which leads to, why isnt there much punching in competitive sparring?
That isnt a question i dont have any inkling of the answer to, but discussing it myself would make me a part of the conversation.

That question has been answered here so many times that it amazes me when people don't know the answer. Either they ignore the answer because it isn't what they want to hear, or it is buried in so much noise that they never see it.

 

[Cyriacus]

That question has been answered here so many times that it amazes me when people don't know the answer. Either they ignore the answer because it isn't what they want to hear, or it is buried in so much noise that they never see it.

Actually, I just dont read the TKD Board very much My apologies.
And when I do read it, Ive never seen the question even asked. Perhaps I need to go back a dozen pages or something?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Actually, I just dont read the TKD Board very much My apologies.
And when I do read it, Ive never seen the question even asked. Perhaps I need to go back a dozen pages or something?

Probably through different threads. It was probably answered in the thread that spawned this thread (taekwondo art or sport)

Your profile says that you practice taekwondo. Do you practice KKW taekwondo or a different federation/system?

 

[Cyriacus]

Probably through different threads. It was probably answered in the thread that spawned this thread (taekwondo art or sport)

Your profile says that you practice taekwondo. Do you practice KKW taekwondo or a different federation/system?

Independent. And in the past Ive trained under the ITF.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Independent. And in the past Ive trained under the ITF.

Independent, but was it Chang Hon? And did they use sparring rules the same or analogous to ITF sparring?

 

[Kong Soo Do]

a training environment will never equate to real life, regardless of how realistic you try to make it.

I think a good take-home point would be to adjust the training environment when a better method is developed. As an example of what I mean, using the example of the officer that gave the gun back to the bad guy.

• Prior training method - one officer is good guy, one officer is bad guy. Good guy goes through disarm. Good guy hands gun back to 'bad guy' to do it again and again. Result wasn't a good one.
• Current training method - one officer is good guy, one officer is bad guy. Good guy goes through disarm. Good guy, after disarm is complete delivers gross motor skill strike/kick/stomp/knee spike or whatever is appropriate to the situation. Good guy creates distance as appropriate to the situation. Good guy taps & racks in the case of a semi-automatic to ensure that firearm is in-battery and charged. Good guy covers threat with firearm while scanning area for possible additional threats while checking self for injures as appropriate. Good guy makes any communications via radio as appropriate and/or issues commands to bad guy(s) as appropriate. Good guy doesn't holster firearm till he/she considers threat is over and situation is contained/controlled. Result is a much better and more realistic follow-up to a real world disarm.

Now take this example into the Dojang, if the training is for SD. Using a full contact sparring session.

• Possible current method - two practitioners get into stance. On the command they begin trying to punch or kick each other till a point is scored in the correct area or 'damage' inflicted is considered sufficient to stop the other.
• Better method if SD is the consideration - good guy practitioner has the opportunity to avoid the situation and/or has the opportunity to deescalate the situation. Failing that, good guy has the opportunity to scan his/her surroundings for points of escape and/or additional threats or areas of concern. Good guy has opportunity to use concealed or improvised weapon(s) (simulated for safety). Good guy engages and defeats bad guy(s). Good guy leaves area, if appropriate while checking self for injuries while seeking means of escape and notification of authorities.

Now, not all of the above has to be done each and every time. Additionally, one could toss in other factors such as being with a loved one and having to work through keeping them safe. Additional threats such as more bad guys, traffic, user-unfriendly objects or obstacles. Dim-light. Non-flat surfaces etc. Some times the deescalation works, some times it doesn't. Some times avoidance works, some times it doesn't. What I'm saying is that if we just teach strike/kick but never touch on other real-world factors the student isn't getting the training needed for other factors/possibilities. Can we cover each and every possible situation? No. Can we cover a bunch of likely situations with some before and after considerations to round out the students range of responses? Yes. And it can be fun to do in the Dojang (and out of it) as it presents new stimulus and new challenges to the student.

Many is the time I came in and dimmed the lights or told the students we were going outside in the parking lot or on the grass or some other situation that took the training up a notch towards realism. Those were the classes students would comment, "that was the best class ever"!

Keep what I'm saying in context. This is for the SD school. But it is also for a sport school where the instructor would like to toss in some SD from time to time. Perhaps even have the ability to offer a 'street-clothes' night where all this SD stuff can be tossed in on top of/with their normal training. This gives them some exposure to what SD is all about, how they can use what they've learned effectively outside the Dojang, promote confidence, promote awareness of surroundings, provide new skills and considerations etc.

Just some thoughts to toss out

 

[miguksaram]

Im sure They can Punch. But if there was more punching in competitive sparring, the hands would no longer be at the sides. Which leads to, why isnt there much punching in competitive sparring?
That isnt a question i dont have any inkling of the answer to, but discussing it myself would make me a part of the conversation.

If you can answer the question as to why there is no punching in Judo, or why there is not kicking in Boxing, then you will have your answer as to why there is not punching to the face in WTF sparring.

 

[Cyriacus]

Independent, but was it Chang Hon? And did they use sparring rules the same or analogous to ITF sparring?

Chang Hon, yes. And the Sparring is unscored, but other than that Id say its pretty much the same rules as ITF Sparring. Punches to the Head and Body, Kicks not going below the belt for that particular exercise, and grappling being refrained from. Grabbing is ok in small doses though. Now just add some elbows, and open handed things being encouraged, so long as theyre pulled if thrown at things like the neck. Or wrist.

If you can answer the question as to why there is no punching in Judo, or why there is not kicking in Boxing, then you will have your answer as to why there is not punching to the face in WTF sparring.

To which I could reply that there is Punching in other elements of Their Training, but that Boxers dont learn Kicking outside of Competitive Sparring.

 

[miguksaram]

To which I could reply that there is Punching in other elements of Their Training, but that Boxers dont learn Kicking outside of Competitive Sparring.

And what excuse does Kyokushin have? I notice no one ever picks on Kyokushin who also does not allow punches to the face.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Chang Hon, yes. And the Sparring is unscored, but other than that Id say its pretty much the same rules as ITF Sparring. Punches to the Head and Body, Kicks not going below the belt for that particular exercise, and grappling being refrained from. Grabbing is ok in small doses though. Now just add some elbows, and open handed things being encouraged, so long as theyre pulled if thrown at things like the neck. Or wrist.

Sounds cool! Hopefully, this will answer your questions about WTF sparring without derailing this thread: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sh...t-is-the-way-that-it-is?p=1510126#post1510126

To which I could reply that there is Punching in other elements of Their Training, but that Boxers dont learn Kicking outside of Competitive Sparring.

To which I would reply that judo doesn't allow its full range of techniques either, and since the primary reason for the criticism of WTF sparring is a perceived disconnect with real world SD, the fact that boxer or judoka don't train in kicks or general strikes respectively shouldn't matter, and should open those rule sets up to the same criticisms.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

And what excuse does Kyokushin have? I notice no one ever picks on Kyokushin who also does not allow punches to the face.

No matter how many times I mention this, nobody pays any attention to it. Same for judo, BJJ, jujutsu, etc. Given that the main complaint of WTF detractors is that the sparring style is bad for SD, the fact that those other arts don't train in punching at all, which these detractors feel is so vital, should make them prime targets for the kind of criticism of the WTF that goes on here.

Of course, that would be seen as art bashing and those entrenched in those sections would quickly marginalize people who choose to do that, and likely with mod assistance.