Real World Attacks

[Cyriacus]

And what excuse does Kyokushin have? I notice no one ever picks on Kyokushin who also does not allow punches to the face.

...I never questioned the punches to the face. Thats fine. But Kyokushin regularly uses Punches. Punches that are allowed, to the body, in WTF TKD.

Sounds cool! Hopefully, this will answer your questions about WTF sparring without derailing this thread: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sh...t-is-the-way-that-it-is?p=1510126#post1510126


To which I would reply that judo doesn't allow its full range of techniques either, and since the primary reason for the criticism of WTF sparring is a perceived disconnect with real world SD, the fact that boxer or judoka don't train in kicks or general strikes respectively shouldn't matter, and should open those rule sets up to the same criticisms.

Im cool with that. All I questioned was, in relation to Puunuis comment, why straight punches to the body arent used often is all. And I added that if They were, Theyd probably keep Their arms a bit more bent up. And Theyre a part of KKW TKD Training. Id actually prefer it if They just werent allowed in Competitive Sparring, just so that I wouldnt need to question why Theyre not used often

*goes to read the new thread

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

...I never questioned the punches to the face. Thats fine. But Kyokushin regularly uses Punches. Punches that are allowed, to the body, in WTF TKD.


Im cool with that. All I questioned was, in relation to Puunuis comment, why straight punches to the body arent used often is all. And I added that if They were, Theyd probably keep Their arms a bit more bent up. And Theyre a part of KKW TKD Training. Id actually prefer it if They just werent allowed in Competitive Sparring, just so that I wouldnt need to question why Theyre not used often

*goes to read the new thread

Hopefully new thread will answer that for you.

 

[dancingalone]

Regarding the Olympic rules sparring thing...from my observation, it's not necessarily the rule set used even most of the time in KKW curriculum schools. In my dojang, we spar the majority of the time like I imagine most other TKD/karate schools do: timed rounds with stand up striking - hand attacks are equally 'rewarding' as kicks, since there is no referee scoring. And this was true even before I purchased the school from the previous headmaster.

Schools that choose to pursue Olympic competition will undoubtedly practice shihap kyorugi, since that is the competition framework set up. Those of us who aren't involved in the tournament circuit can and do practice other things.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Regarding the Olympic rules sparring thing...from my observation, it's not necessarily the rule set used even most of the time in KKW curriculum schools. In my dojang, we spar the majority of the time like I imagine most other TKD/karate schools do: timed rounds with stand up striking - hand attacks are equally 'rewarding' as kicks, since there is no referee scoring. And this was true even before I purchased the school from the previous headmaster.

Schools that choose to pursue Olympic competition will undoubtedly practice shihap kyorugi, since that is the competition framework set up. Those of us who aren't involved in the tournament circuit can and do practice other things.

This has been said many times before. By both myself and many others. It is one of the many points that detractors conveniently ignore. While the majority, if not all, Kukkiwon schools practice shihap kyorugi, it is not practiced exclusively.

 

[puunui]

Better forms of 'active defense' would be open hands, forearms, edge-of-hand, elbows etc preferably to soft target areas such as the side of the head, brachial plexus, solar plexus, joints etc. Now, nothing works on everyone all the time, and sometimes you have to take what you can get, so take what I'm offering within context please. From personal experience, I have had the greatest positive results with elbows, forearms and edge-of-hand strikes (when it has been necessary and appropriate to use a strike or to set up for a lock, escort or throw).

Our taekwondo seniors and pioneers tell us that the primary hand weapon is the the closed fist. Its importance is underscored by the fact that many kwan have as their symbol, a closed fist. This importance is also shown to us by the fact that the hand strike that scores in taekwondo competition is, a closed fist. Those who engage in the modern competition training methods also train hand strikes and they associated strategies to effectively utilize punches against an uncooperative partner. Fist strikes are aimed at the hogu yes, but we hit all over that hogu, including up towards the collarbone.

In any event, taekwondoin who are properly trained to effectively use fist strikes against a hard hogu have no problems adapting that training to strikes to the face. I have one student who won nationals using punches. He was dropping everybody with that.

Instead of needlessly worrying about breaking or otherwise injuring your hand when striking someone, perhaps more time should be spent acquiring the necessary attributes and skill required to effectively strike with a closed fist, without injuring yourself.

 

[puunui]

Im sure They can Punch. But if there was more punching in competitive sparring, the hands would no longer be at the sides.

Incorrect. The hands are down by a competitor's sides for a specific reason.

 

[puunui]

Now take this example into the Dojang, if the training is for SD. Using a full contact sparring session.

• Possible current method - two practitioners get into stance. On the command they begin trying to punch or kick each other till a point is scored in the correct area or 'damage' inflicted is considered sufficient to stop the other.
• Better method if SD is the consideration - good guy practitioner has the opportunity to avoid the situation and/or has the opportunity to deescalate the situation. Failing that, good guy has the opportunity to scan his/her surroundings for points of escape and/or additional threats or areas of concern. Good guy has opportunity to use concealed or improvised weapon(s) (simulated for safety). Good guy engages and defeats bad guy(s). Good guy leaves area, if appropriate while checking self for injuries while seeking means of escape and notification of authorities.

That might be feasible if you only have one or two students. Try teaching that to 45 six year old orange belts at the same time. Besides, why would an instructor incorporate that sort of "training" within a dojang context. The students who are there aren't primarily concerned with learning self defense, remember? If you wish to carve out a little self defense niche for yourself, then great.

Now, not all of the above has to be done each and every time. Additionally, one could toss in other factors such as being with a loved one and having to work through keeping them safe. Additional threats such as more bad guys, traffic, user-unfriendly objects or obstacles. Dim-light. Non-flat surfaces etc. Some times the deescalation works, some times it doesn't. Some times avoidance works, some times it doesn't. What I'm saying is that if we just teach strike/kick but never touch on other real-world factors the student isn't getting the training needed for other factors/possibilities. Can we cover each and every possible situation? No. Can we cover a bunch of likely situations with some before and after considerations to round out the students range of responses? Yes. And it can be fun to do in the Dojang (and out of it) as it presents new stimulus and new challenges to the student.

If you wish to open up a private club and pass out eight track tapes for free, terrific. No one will stop you, and perhaps you may even have a waiting list of people who wish to join your club. But don't be surprised if walmart or any other store for that matter chooses not to sell, much less give away eight track tapes, and instead focuses on mp3 players, cellphones with digital music capability, as well as cds and cd players. The people that shop at walmart don't want eight track tapes. They go someplace else for that if that is what they want, and if that is the niche that you wish to develop for yourself, more power to you.

Many is the time I came in and dimmed the lights or told the students we were going outside in the parking lot or on the grass or some other situation that took the training up a notch towards realism. Those were the classes students would comment, "that was the best class ever"!

I wouldn't recommend that sort of thing, from a liability exposure perspective. Again, that sort of thing might be ok if you have only a couple of students, but to bring a whole class of kids out there at night in the parking lot is asking for trouble.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Instead of needlessly worrying about breaking or otherwise injuring your hand when striking someone, perhaps more time should be spent acquiring the necessary attributes and skill required to effectively strike with a closed fist, without injuring yourself.

This is an unfounded point of view on your part. Boxers, who I would argue are much better at striking that someone in the martial arts protect their hands for a reason. They are easily damaged. Real world encounters bear this out as factual. Regardless of one's skill level, we cannot control every aspect of a chaotic real-world fight. Closed fist strikes to soft body targets are one thing, to a hard target is quite another. That is why those that were senior to TKD seniors developed such a variety of different strikes.

The considerations I have listed in the above couple of posts concerning closed-fist strikes come from professional, high liability training circles based on military, L.E. and private citizen altercations. Good research on this topic would come from any system associated with William Fairbairn, Rex Applegate, Pat O'Neill, Carl Cestari, Ken Good, Tony Blauer, Tony Lambria and others within the combative communities.

Hitting with a closed fist, while hands are taped and/or gloves are worn and/or the opponent is wearing head gear doesn't equal good training for a bare closed fist against a hard target in a real-world altercation.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

That might be feasible if you only have one or two students. Try teaching that to 45 six year old orange belts at the same time. Besides, why would an instructor incorporate that sort of "training" within a dojang context. The students who are there aren't primarily concerned with learning self defense, remember? If you wish to carve out a little self defense niche for yourself, then great.

I wouldn't recommend that sort of thing, from a liability exposure perspective. Again, that sort of thing might be ok if you have only a couple of students, but to bring a whole class of kids out there at night in the parking lot is asking for trouble.

Why would you attempt to teach a six-year old child methods meant for adults? They should be learning age-appropriate skills as presented in this and other threads.

If you wish to open up a private club and pass out eight track tapes for free, terrific. No one will stop you, and perhaps you may even have a waiting list of people who wish to join your club. But don't be surprised if walmart or any other store for that matter chooses not to sell, much less give away eight track tapes, and instead focuses on mp3 players, cellphones with digital music capability, as well as cds and cd players. The people that shop at walmart don't want eight track tapes. They go someplace else for that if that is what they want, and if that is the niche that you wish to develop for yourself, more power to you.

You're comparing apples and oranges again in an effort to support or defend you circular reasoning argument. You get so defensive and threatened when anyone talks about SD as opposed to sport. That's silly. Be happy with what you've learned and can pass on to others. Be happy for those that have experience and skills you don't have that can be passed on to others. Then you'll be happy and less defensive all the time.

 

[puunui]

This is an unfounded point of view on your part. Boxers, who I would argue are much better at striking that someone in the martial arts protect their hands for a reason.

And the reason is that they are fighting many rounds, and they get tired. Contrast this to a boxer who gets into a self defense situation, and they are not throwing more than three blows to get the job done. I have a client who was a golden gloves boxer and could have turned pro if he wanted to. He is the type that trouble always seems to follow and so he has been in by his estimate at least 100 fights. He told me that all ended after he threw one punch to the jaw of his attacker, and he never hurt his hands, ever. He said it was the same way with his friends at the boxing gym, that street fights were nothing compared to a match against a skilled opponent.

Hitting with a closed fist, while hands are taped and/or gloves are worn and/or the opponent is wearing head gear doesn't equal good training for a bare closed fist against a hard target in a real-world altercation.

You should hang out with more boxers, because they will tell you a different story.

 

[puunui]

Why would you attempt to teach a six-year old child methods meant for adults? They should be learning age-appropriate skills as presented in this and other threads.

Same concerns apply for adults as well. Maybe if you have only two students to work with it might be okay. But try teaching that to 45 adults at the same time.

You're comparing apples and oranges again in an effort to support or defend you circular reasoning argument.

Really? What is the circular argument that you are speaking about?

You get so defensive and threatened when anyone talks about SD as opposed to sport.

I don't know why you keep bringing up sport because it really doesn't apply. Most dojang are not geared or focused on competition or self defense, but rather other things which their student base want.

That's silly. Be happy with what you've learned and can pass on to others. Be happy for those that have experience and skills you don't have that can be passed on to others. Then you'll be happy and less defensive all the time.

I am a happy guy. We were just at the US Open Hanmadang and one person walked up to me out of the blue and said that my constant smiling face throughout the tournament was exactly what he was told the Hanmadang and taekwondo was all about.

If I were you, I would simply accept the fact that people are not overly focused on self defense anymore in their martial arts training. And you know what, they are not overly focused on "sport" or competition either. That's just the way it is. Family friendly kid friendly training is here to stay. I used to have a problem with that, but now I don't, because it is like fighting the face of inevitability. What is the alternative, stand up and shake your fist as the tidal wave comes rolling in? Put your head in the sand and pretend it isn't so?

Today, more people than ever are taekwondo students. And the bottom line is, that is a good thing.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

And the reason is that they are fighting many rounds, and they get tired. Contrast this to a boxer who gets into a self defense situation, and they are not throwing more than three blows to get the job done. I have a client who was a golden gloves boxer and could have turned pro if he wanted to. He is the type that trouble always seems to follow and so he has been in by his estimate at least 100 fights. He told me that all ended after he threw one punch to the jaw of his attacker, and he never hurt his hands, ever. He said it was the same way with his friends at the boxing gym, that street fights were nothing compared to a match against a skilled opponent.

You should hang out with more boxers, because they will tell you a different story.

I do know a lot of boxers, and they back up the points I've made. Injuries in the ring can and do come in the first round just as they may happen in the last round. And this is with tape, gloves and possibly head gear.

Point is, once again, closed fist strikes to the face/head are NOT the best option for a plethora of reasons. To teach otherwise is not to have the students best interest in mind. Simple as that.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Hmmm, let me try this with you puunui. Using just one word, respond to the following;

Day

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

And you know what, they are not overly focused on "sport" or competition either. That's just the way it is. Family friendly kid friendly training is here to stay. I used to have a problem with that, but now I don't, because it is like fighting the face of inevitability. What is the alternative, stand up and shake your fist as the tidal wave comes rolling in? Put your head in the sand and pretend it isn't so?

I used to have a problem with it as well. I'm sure that a search on MT can find old threads where I expressed my problems with kid friendly training. Lot of reasons that I no longer think along those lines. One of those reasons was due to one of my kendo students. She brought her nephews in who are both under twelve and both of whom take taekwondo. They are not KKW; not sure of the federation, but it isn't a Chang Hon or ATA school either, but they do weapons, including bo, bokken, kama, and nunchuku. Anyway,the older one is a black belt and the younger one a colored belt.

They came in to watch the class and sat quietly and watched intently. At the end of class, they asked me a good number of fairly intelligent questions about the kendo class, questions that people who don't practice an MA would probably never even think of; questions about footwork, weapon grip, sparring strategy, and even the zanshin after the strike. They didn't know the term, but they picked it out as different from what they were used to.

Since the older one was to learn the bokken as his next weapon, he asked me all manner of questions about swords. It definitely changed my perspective on what a child can comprehend.

The overall good behavior of both kids was impressive as well.

 

[puunui]

I do know a lot of boxers, and they back up the points I've made. Injuries in the ring can and do come in the first round just as they may happen in the last round. And this is with tape, gloves and possibly head gear.

Point is, once again, closed fist strikes to the face/head are NOT the best option for a plethora of reasons. To teach otherwise is not to have the students best interest in mind. Simple as that.

Point is, once again, if you if you are so concerned about hurting your hand punching someone in the face during a self defense encounter, then perhaps the answer is to develop your abilities and skills such that you are no longer afraid of that. Another point, once again, is if hand damage is such a concern, then perhaps you should tell that to all the people who think that a face punch is the answer to defeating a taekwondo practitioner in a fight, the same people who argue that taekwondo needs more punching to be effective in a self defense situation.

 

[puunui]

Forgot about these two:

Closed fist strikes to soft body targets are one thing, to a hard target is quite another. That is why those that were senior to TKD seniors developed such a variety of different strikes.

I would say that the jaw, underneath the ear, is not a hard target. As for why "those that were were to TKF seniors" developed such a variety of different strikes, I would disagree. I would say that the primary weapon has always been the two knuckle punch, which is why so much time and effort was spent on makiwara training.

What the taekwondo seniors tell us about the "variety of different strikes" is that they are to be used when your two knuckle punch fails for whatever reason, like you break your wrist or your hand gets smashed or cut with a weapon. Then as a back up you utilize the other types of strikes, including forearm and elbow. But the primary hand weapon of karate is two knuckle punch.

 

[elder999]

n

What the taekwondo seniors tell us about the "variety of different strikes" is that they are to be used when your two knuckle punch fails for whatever reason, like you break your wrist or your hand gets smashed or cut with a weapon. Then as a back up you utilize the other types of strikes, including forearm and elbow. But the primary hand weapon of karate is two knuckle punch.

Chiming in late, here, but I'd say "for whatever reason" has an awful lot to do with where you're standing, and what's happening.

After all, you can't do a lunge punch, or spinning back kick in a phone booth. Maybe a front kick, maybe a reverse punch, but there are more effective ways-in karate-to defend yourself in close quarters.

When I was in college, I bounced at a place called the "Mad Hatter," in Smithtown, LI, NY. It used to be a Woolworth's, and had one of those old time phone booths you don't see anymore-the wooden kind, with a seat in it, set into the wall. When you closed the door, a light and a fan would come on.........ah, nostalgia.

Anyway. One of my fellow bouncers was a taekwondoin-had earned some trophies in open tournaments and tae kwon do tournaments-and he was BIG. Saw him get pushed into the phone booth and eaten for lunch by a fairly strong brawler, in about 15 seconds-before I could do much about it, he'd had his jaw and a couple of ribs broken, and his groin smashed for good measure, because his training didn't give him any weapons for the phone booth-though it probably did for the way the guy just bowled into him and shoved him in there, but-for whatever reason-he didn't use it.

The "variety of different strikes" are for a "variety of circumstances,' like a phone booth, or a hillside, or a staircase, or an elevator, or a crowded bus, or a boat, or a narrow hallway, or a slippery kitchen floor, or a toilet, or......you know, all those places that "real world attacks" take place.......the real world. :lfao:

 

[puunui]

Saw him get pushed into the phone booth and eaten for lunch by a fairly strong brawler, in about 15 seconds-before I could do much about it, he'd had his jaw and a couple of ribs broken, and his groin smashed for good measure, because his training didn't give him any weapons for the phone booth-though it probably did for the way the guy just bowled into him and shoved him in there, but-for whatever reason-he didn't use it.

Your friend who got his jaw and ribs broken, what was the other guy hitting with, a closed fist?

 

[bugatabugata]

Circling back to the original point -- I used to get in a lot of fights as a teenager (a combination of a rough environment and a bad attitude - not something I'm proud of now). The OP's correct -- most of the time, it was a punch to the face that got things rolling. Since the people I ended up fighting were usually largerand stronger, one thing that could turn the tide was a quick jab to the nose -- once the blood starts flowing, it's a huge psychological advantage and from there on out, it's relatively easy pickings. (Plus, it's painful as heck, if you've ever had it happen to you.) As that line from the "Princess Bride" goes -- it's all about communicating to your opponent that they're in for a world of pain and their best option's to fold. Sadly, didn't work all the time...got my behind whopped on many an occasion.

 

[Dirty Dog]

And the reason is that they are fighting many rounds, and they get tired. Contrast this to a boxer who gets into a self defense situation, and they are not throwing more than three blows to get the job done. I have a client who was a golden gloves boxer and could have turned pro if he wanted to. He is the type that trouble always seems to follow and so he has been in by his estimate at least 100 fights. He told me that all ended after he threw one punch to the jaw of his attacker, and he never hurt his hands, ever. He said it was the same way with his friends at the boxing gym, that street fights were nothing compared to a match against a skilled opponent.


You should hang out with more boxers, because they will tell you a different story.

Bah. Anecdotes are not science.

I never use the closed fist anywhere except in the dojang. And the ONLY time I've ever hurt my hand? A messed up block (with a closed fist...) while sparring against 3 opponents. #1 had been knocked out of range. I was focused on delivering a roundhouse to the head of #2, and blocked the kick of #3 incorrectly. The low block was too early, and got in front of the kick, and I caught it right on the 4th knuckle. That was about 15 seconds in, and by the end of the 2 minutes, that hand was a bit sore.

The idea that openhand strikes are less effective than closed is just silly.