Real World Attacks

[Marcy Shoberg]

I think some people on this thread need to read "Verbal Judo" and "How to Win Friends and Influence People" and other people on this thread need to realize that the angry words and gestures that often preceed punches are the real beginning of most fights.

Whatever it is you think I need to realize, tell me nicely or I am likely to not listen.

 

[Steve]

If you want to offer that, then go for it. Let us know how many students you sign up for your program.





I put the word tiny in there to emphasize a point, which is people show what they want from their martial arts schools by supporting them with students. And in that regard, the size of the school is a measure of what people want. And what they don't want is some self defense focused school teaching bar room oriented or even LEO oriented stuff to their children.

Gracie schools are thriving and their bullying program for kids is popular. Your success or lack of isn't necessarily an indication that the idea is without merit. It just means it didn't work for you.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2

 

[puunui]

made new thread.

 

[seasoned]

I think some people on this thread need to read "Verbal Judo" and "How to Win Friends and Influence People" and other people on this thread need to realize that the angry words and gestures that often preceed punches are the real beginning of most fights.

Whatever it is you think I need to realize, tell me nicely or I am likely to not listen.

Good point. People that get involved in this angry words and gestures are not defending themselves but participating in a dead end road. It only takes a few of the right words to defuse a situation.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Good point. People that get involved in this angry words and gestures are not defending themselves but participating in a dead end road. It only takes a few of the right words to defuse a situation.

The funny thing is that its the same person every time. He stopped coming here for a couple of months and all was fine, he comes back and the warnings start again. Personally I enjoy having them here, it ads some comedy to the site, and its all harmless.

 

[seasoned]

I think some people on this thread need to read "Verbal Judo" and "How to Win Friends and Influence People" and other people on this thread need to realize that the angry words and gestures that often preceed punches are the real beginning of most fights.

Whatever it is you think I need to realize, tell me nicely or I am likely to not listen.

Good point. People that get involved in this angry words and gestures are not defending themselves but participating in a dead end road. It only takes a few of the right words to defuse a situation.

The funny thing is that its the same person every time. He stopped coming here for a couple of months and all was fine, he comes back and the warnings start again. Personally I enjoy having them here, it ads some comedy to the site, and its all harmless.

I think most of what Marcy was saying, pertained to street confrontation, along with my comment.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Try reading the books again. Peyton's focus in on full contact training, and the idea of continuous striking, which he feels traditional martial arts lack. Hogu drills are full contact as well as continuous and if you want to talk about intimidation, then show up at nationals and draw steven lopez in your first fight.

The RMCAt intimidation strategy was the verbal bashing you are likely to encounter in the street. I think that is much more probable then encountering Mr. Lopez.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Again, the reason why you don't understand these things is because you do not understand the modern competition training methods found in kukki taekwondo and frankly, I don't think that you want to understand.

I think you are correct. I believe in the saying that goes "How you train is how you act / react." I understand that.
This applies not just to sparring. Was at a weapons defense course taught by a retired Military guy. Told us how soldiers had to pick up brass on the range. Then some got killed in Combat picking up Brass.

During weapons disarms he told us not to hand the weapon back to the attacker for the next practice. Instead we laid it on the floor and they picked it up. Apparently there were instances of people disarming an attacker and handing the weapon back and the fight continued. My Ju Jitsu Instructor told us of restraining a guy in a bar while he was bouncing. The guy he was restraining was a Ju Jtsu guy as well and tapped. He let him go, and the fight continued.

 

[MJS]

Folks,

One warning was already posted. I'm sure everyone saw it. Please, stop the veiled shots at people. You've all been here long enough to know the rules and about that wonderful ignore feature. Lets return to the topic please.

MJS
MT Asst. Admin

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I believe in the saying that goes "How you train is how you act / react." I understand that.

There is another, often taught statement that mirrors that statement, "We don't rise to the occasion, we sink to the level of our training". There has been a plethora of data from multiple decades of real world altercations (armed and unarmed) that support this perspective. The results can be success or tragedy depending upon the type of training one has receive and the situation they find themselves faced with.

As an illustration; decades ago in what in now referred to as the Newhall Massacre, officers were found shot to death with empty revolvers, full ammo pouches and spent brass in their pockets. What happened is that while in a fire-fight they shot their revolvers dry and instead of immediately reloading and getting back into the fight, they stopped to collect the spent brass and put it in their pockets. The badguys, wondering why the officers had stopped shooting changed location and gunned down the officers. These officers weren't dumb and were actually very proficient with their sidearm. But tracing it back to training, they had an anal-retentive range officer who wanted a tidy range. So after every string of six rounds the trainees cleaned up the spent brass, placed it in their pockets, reloaded and then went back to shooting. Now after doing that hundreds, perhaps thousands of times it was ingrained in them. When the time came, and while under critical duress, they reverted to their training. This time with tragic consequences.

Another officer disarmed a badguy of his gun during a store robbery. The disarm was beautiful and worthy of any martial arts class....and then he gave the gun back to the badguy! Fortunately the officer's partner rounded the corner and shot the badguy before he could shoot the officers. Again, the officer wasn't stupid and obviously had great skill in disarms as he did it to a real badguy in a real robbery. But tracing back to training one officer played the good guy and one officer played the bad guy. The good guy would disarm the bad guy of the gun and then hand it back to him so he could do it again...and again...and again for practice. So under critical stress the officer reverted to his training.

From these lessons learned (the hard way), we altered our training methodology.

This can be applied to the martial arts. This is in NO WAY a shot at any art, don't take it as such please. Not all arts are meant for SD. Many have sole or strong sport elements such as Judo, BJJ and TKD. And they do great in sport venues. The point needs to be made however, that any art needs to take a very close look at its teaching methodology to make sure it is applicable for its purpose. You don't teach a TKD sport competitor SD methodology because it can't be used in the venue in which he/she competes. And the reverse is just as true. Under duress, you can experience a variety of things such as auditory exclusion (you can't hear the gun going off, the car coming at you, someone shouting), tunnel vision (you're focused on the threat to the exclusion of other threats, or help around you), loss of manual dexterity in the extremities (you revert to gross motor skills and refined motor skills become difficult if not impossible to attempt/complete), dramatically elevated blood pressure/pulse, memory loss etc. Real things that happen to real people under duress. To simplify, you go on auto-pilot to a lesser or greater extent.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Had to cut my above post short as my battery was about to die. I switched PC's

To continue, this is why the vast majority of attacks are as discussed above; right-handed haymakers. The attacker(s) are likely to be under duress as well, predominately from adrenaline dump. Most people aren't 'trained fighters' so they go with the easiest of gross motor skill attacks and they use their right-hand to initiate it as most are right-handed in the world. This is why I stated previously that if someone initiates a different mode of attack, they may well be trained in 'something'. It would be worth noting if you have the opportunity as to what type of attack is forthcoming. This may well be information you need to know, again if you have the luxury of time.

Is the guy balling up his fists and advancing on you? Is he in a deep 'horse stance'? Are his hands open and his body bladed to you? Is he bouncing around and light on his feet as if he intends to use a kick? Valuable information, if of course you have the luxury of time to note and evaluate it.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

No competitive rule set is preparation for self defense. They all develop bad habbits of some kind and they all miss the mark in critical areas

True enough, but this is far and awya the most common critical area. If we accept the 78% rule it is more than twice as likely than all other areas combined.

The original exchange was with regards as to whether or not KKW taekwondoin are prepared to deal with punches to the face, which could be a thread all its own. The questioning of the figure was due to the fact that he threw out a solid figure rather than saying 'the vast majority' and followed it up with 'why is WTF sparring taught as self defense' when it is not. Those who compete in it don't think that it is either. And it isn't. Any more than boxing or judo is. Which prompts the question; do you and others who bemoan the lack of punching in WTF sparring go to the BJJ, judo and jujutsu sections make the same arguments?

As for preparedness against a punch to the face, defense and countering against a physical technique is the tail end of the process. If you (the general you, not you specifically) are finding yourself on the receiving end of a punch to the face, your defense has already failed. Even if you deflect the punch and win the physical confrontation, you have already been defeated every area leading up to that point.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I think I can safely say that from the responses here so far that the punch to the face is the most common attack you will come accross.

Most common opening attack in an unarmed altercation outside of schoolyard fighting. This is different from saying that it is the most common attack that you will come across; that will vary depending on location, environment, and lifestyle.

In any case, nobody argued to the contrary; simply that it isn't as all encompassing as a 99% figure, and is probably closer to 50% based on a lot of conversations with a lot of people. Seat of the pants estimate would

To be honest, it ranks almost at the bottom of my list in terms concerns about self defense; I am skilled in avoiding the circumstances that will put me into a position to worry about being punched in the nose. Yes, I'm trained to respond to it. And yes, that training has been tested. And yes, I still train against punches to the face. Not because I am concerned about, however, but because the training is enjoyable and it is how I was taught.

Top of my list as far as SD concerns are the type of encounters that are more of a challenge to prepare for because the lead up to them is outside of the experience of most people.

In any case, it has been explained to you and others many times and by many people that SD is generally a separate part of the curriculum from that of WTF sparring. None of you want to hear it. You just keep repeating the same tired arguments over and over again. But you expect us to kindly and openly evaluate your descriptions of what you do.

So, despite the fact that no ruleset for sparring will ever completely prepare you for self defence, if you were designing a ruleset to "best prepare" someone for what they will most likely encounter in a real altercation you would probably pencil in allowing face punches into the ruleset.

Except that nobody is designing rule sets for that purpose. If they were, wrestling wouldn't exist and boxing would look more like MMA. Even MMA isn't designed to emulate real world altercations, though it is the most comprehensive of competitive rule sets that I am aware of, though it is probably the closest in terms of rule sets, but it would be pretty boring if MMA were the only fight sport available; I like the variety of martial sport.

That was the point being made in the other thread. I dont care if technically its 97% or 89% etc, the bottom line is that its highly likely that if you have to defend yourself for real this is an attack you will almost certainly come up against.

So do you go to the judo forums and make these same arguments?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Had to cut my above post short as my battery was about to die.

Hate it when that happens.

 

[Earl Weiss]

So do you go to the judo forums and make these same arguments?

Kano developed Judo as a sport. It is trained by Players as a sport. This is not to say that plenty of Judo Guys would be 10 miles of bad road in a fight. Rhond R now doing well in MMA having transitioned their training.

Some of my Ju Jitsu instructors and friends flat out tell us that the street is not the place for grappling. Stick with the striking. They also train for the strike.

Some of you are very up front about WTF style sparring not being the optimal answer for the street. I can't help but wonder how many WTF style instructors truly reinforce this with the students.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Most common opening attack in an unarmed altercation outside of schoolyard fighting. This is different from saying that it is the most common attack that you will come across; that will vary depending on location, environment, and lifestyle.

In any case, nobody argued to the contrary; simply that it isn't as all encompassing as a 99% figure, and is probably closer to 50% based on a lot of conversations with a lot of people. Seat of the pants estimate would

Part of the reason for this thread was to get feedback aabout numbers and percentages about attacks. The BB Mag had some interesting statistics. Of course it would be better if 10,000 fights were summarized.

In that articel 50 fights were observed and 78% started with punches (39) and 10% with grabs. (5).

I submit that the punching factor is much more significant from those numbers than a basic reading shows. #1. The grab is not a debilitating attack. #2 What immediately followed the grab is not stated.

If you look at initial physical actions that had the potential to debilitate the recipient then its 39 of 45 or 86%.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

So do you go to the judo forums and make these same arguments?

Kano developed Judo as a sport. It is trained by Players as a sport. This is not to say that plenty of Judo Guys would be 10 miles of bad road in a fight. Rhond R now doing well in MMA having transitioned their training.

WTF shihap kyorugi was developed as a sport. It is trained by players as a sport. It was developed this way with an eye towards Olympic inclusion. So if you don't do it on the judo forums, then why do you do it here?

Some of my Ju Jitsu instructors and friends flat out tell us that the street is not the place for grappling. Stick with the striking. They also train for the strike.

So, do you go the jujutsu forms and make these same arguments?

Some of you are very up front about WTF style sparring not being the optimal answer for the street. I can't help but wonder how many WTF style instructors truly reinforce this with the students.

So far as I have seen, they do. I cannot speak for all schools, but I have visited many over the past thirty years and I have yet to see any that treat tournament fighting as self defense, separating SD as a separate part of the curriculum. Also, universally, every MA school that I have trained at exhort the students not to get into fights and to settle things peacefully.

Secondly, why do you wonder? I don't wonder if judo guys think that competitive judo is SD. I don't wonder if BJJ guys think BJJ is SD. I don't wonder if ATA schools teach that their sparring is SD. The only thing that I wonder is why non KKW/WTF people even care.

I don't care if MMA, BJJ, HKD, TSD, KSD, IKA, ITF, boxing, wrestling, sumo, judo, bondo or condo people think their sparring is realistic or not. If they like what they do, then good for them. Presumably, people in these arts or organizations are aware of the purposes and the norms of their art. I'm happy to let them figure out if the sparring rules are to their liking.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Most common opening attack in an unarmed altercation outside of schoolyard fighting. This is different from saying that it is the most common attack that you will come across; that will vary depending on location, environment, and lifestyle.

In any case, nobody argued to the contrary; simply that it isn't as all encompassing as a 99% figure, and is probably closer to 50% based on a lot of conversations with a lot of people. Seat of the pants estimate would

Part of the reason for this thread was to get feedback aabout numbers and percentages about attacks. The BB Mag had some interesting statistics. Of course it would be better if 10,000 fights were summarized.

In that articel 50 fights were observed and 78% started with punches (39) and 10% with grabs. (5).

I submit that the punching factor is much more significant from those numbers than a basic reading shows. #1. The grab is not a debilitating attack. #2 What immediately followed the grab is not stated.

If you look at initial physical actions that had the potential to debilitate the recipient then its 39 of 45 or 86%.

Wow! That is embarrassing: I left my sentence unfinished! "My seat of the pants estimate would..." put shoves on even par or even higher than that of punches, though I do agree with you that a shove or a grab is not itself generally debilitating. However, now you're changing the nature of the statement. Before it was most common first attack. Now you are saying most common debilitating first attack. Which is fine; if that is what you meant in the first place, then I might be inclined to put the number over 78%.

 

[miguksaram]

I think some people on this thread need to read "Verbal Judo" and "How to Win Friends and Influence People" .....

I love that book. Works well in stopping the right handed hay maker punch.

 

[miguksaram]

During weapons disarms he told us not to hand the weapon back to the attacker for the next practice. Instead we laid it on the floor and they picked it up. Apparently there were instances of people disarming an attacker and handing the weapon back and the fight continued.

We were told something similar by one of our instructors who works with FBI and LEO. He told us of an incident where a cop did disarm an assailant from his gun and as a reflex gave the gun back. The assialant shot him. This type of mentality is why we also teach our kids that when they do an escape they are to run away instead of just standing there.