Real World Attacks

[Kong Soo Do]

I see the finger poke to the chest or shove as a gauge for their next shot that is coming. It is all about distancing in and out of the dojo.

Correct. These would fall under pre-fight precursors just as would non-verbal cues such as the clenching of the fists, increased heavy breathing. rapid eye movements etc. They are not the attack in-and-of-themselves.

And given the fact that the overwhelming majority of taekwondo students today in the US are children who won't be defending themselves in a bar room situation, or even in a school yard situation due to zero violence policies, the whole argument about the dire and essential need for "self defense" training in taekwondo schools is, well, a waste of time.

Where has this argument about the dire need for SD for children taken place? Those that do teach SD for children know that it is very different from SD for adults. This would include elements to deal with bullies, abduction prevention, verbal code words used with a parent or guardian etc. And this sort of training is never a waste of time. It can be effectively, and is effectively put into any type of martial arts program. Those instructors that don't teach this should learn it for the benefit of their students (particularly children). To suggest that age-appropriate SD is a waste of time in a martial arts setting (or other learning environment) is silly

If people think that taekwondo does not teach self defense, then they should go join another (tiny) hard core tiny self defense school.

Do you think you put 'tiny' enough times in your sentence? The size of a school (or organization) is not necessarily a measure of its quality.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Correct. These would fall under pre-fight precursors just as would non-verbal cues such as the clenching of the fists, increased heavy breathing. rapid eye movements etc. They are not the attack in-and-of-themselves.



Where has this argument about the dire need for SD for children taken place? Those that do teach SD for children know that it is very different from SD for adults. This would include elements to deal with bullies, abduction prevention, verbal code words used with a parent or guardian etc. And this sort of training is never a waste of time. It can be effectively, and is effectively put into any type of martial arts program. Those instructors that don't teach this should learn it for the benefit of their students (particularly children). To suggest that age-appropriate SD is a waste of time in a martial arts setting (or other learning environment) is silly



Do you think you put 'tiny' enough times in your sentence? The size of a school (or organization) is not necessarily a measure of its quality.

as has been said before, if. The size of an organisation or business determined its quality then mcdonalds would be a top notch restaurant. You know someone is clutching at straws when they start to make dorogatory remarks towards other organisations based on the number of members they have.

 

[puunui]

Where has this argument about the dire need for SD for children taken place? Those that do teach SD for children know that it is very different from SD for adults. This would include elements to deal with bullies, abduction prevention, verbal code words used with a parent or guardian etc. And this sort of training is never a waste of time. It can be effectively, and is effectively put into any type of martial arts program. Those instructors that don't teach this should learn it for the benefit of their students (particularly children). To suggest that age-appropriate SD is a waste of time in a martial arts setting (or other learning environment) is silly

If you want to offer that, then go for it. Let us know how many students you sign up for your program.

Do you think you put 'tiny' enough times in your sentence? The size of a school (or organization) is not necessarily a measure of its quality.

I put the word tiny in there to emphasize a point, which is people show what they want from their martial arts schools by supporting them with students. And in that regard, the size of the school is a measure of what people want. And what they don't want is some self defense focused school teaching bar room oriented or even LEO oriented stuff to their children.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

If you want to offer that, then go for it. Let us know how many students you sign up for your program.

I do want to offer it as I consider it important. I've taught over a thousand people these principles that have gone on to teach others the same. I've taught in various schools as well to different age groups of children. And as of right now, I don't even accept new students and have had to institude a waiting list. Thank you for asking.

And what they don't want is some self defense focused school teaching bar room oriented or even LEO oriented stuff to their children.

Do you even read other people's posts before responding? Seriously. I'm pretty sure no one mentioned teaching LEO oriented stuff to children or bar room brawling. Age-appropriate SD is always in demand and an excellent resource for helping a child defend themselves against bullies or abduction attempts. This is what has been discussed and offered as far as children are concerned.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

as has been said before, if. The size of an organisation or business determined its quality then mcdonalds would be a top notch restaurant. You know someone is clutching at straws when they start to make dorogatory remarks towards other organisations based on the number of members they have.

I don't know why he does it? It is a silly and inaccurate premise to stand upon. Quality is always superior to quantity in regards to martial arts. Pumping people through any type of program for sheer numbers, or allowing them to join regardless of their qualifications for the sake of numbers may make an organization impressive numbers wise but has nothing to do with quality. This is a general statement. Additionally, an organization can be large and have good quality in one area but be completely lacking in another area. But to put down any organization due solely to the size of the organization is well...silly.

 

[seasoned]

As a by stander, I see you guys poking each other in the chest. I see that over hand right coming, please, prove me wrong...............

 

[Kong Soo Do]

As a by stander, I see you guys poking each other in the chest. I see that over hand right coming, please, prove me wrong...............

I'm sticking strictly with the issue and not the person. I'll leave the personal stuff to him.

 

[puunui]

I do want to offer it as I consider it important. I've taught over a thousand people these principles that have gone on to teach others the same. I've taught in various schools as well to different age groups of children. And as of right now, I don't even accept new students and have had to institude a waiting list. Thank you for asking.

Terrific. And when you do get your school started, no one from kukki taekwondo will criticize you for failing to offer competition poomsae or sparring training to your students.

Do you even read other people's posts before responding? Seriously. I'm pretty sure no one mentioned teaching LEO oriented stuff to children or bar room brawling. Age-appropriate SD is always in demand and an excellent resource for helping a child defend themselves against bullies or abduction attempts. This is what has been discussed and offered as far as children are concerned.

How many takers did you get for your children self defense offerings in the past? Make a good living doing that?

Another thing that they don't want is to go easter egg hunting through forms looking for "self defense applications" that the instructor reverse engineered into them. If they did, then the large large large super large large successful successful super successful successful kukki taekwondo schools that dominate the martial arts market would be offering that right now.

 

[puunui]

As a by stander, I see you guys poking each other in the chest. I see that over hand right coming, please, prove me wrong...............

A small vocal minority, especially non taekwondo, non kukki taekwondo types, like to come here and disparage taekwondo every chance they get. I'm just here to present facts in the face of false accusation.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Well, I think i understood it. While at RMCAR I spoke to Peyton Quinn about it at length.

.

I need to retract my prior statement. The initial punch attack is addressed in Bouncer's Guide (Page 26 is one example) Real fighting highlights the grab then punch to the head .( Page 40 is one example.) My memory kind of ran the two things together.

 

[Earl Weiss]

In my opinion, Peyton's RMCAT program is one big modified series of hogu drills and one big endorsement for the full contact training against a live opponent methodology that is the centerpiece of the modern competition training methods.

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While I do not like the idea of sparring with the Hogu, I do like the idea of utilizing it for full contact. However to analogize it to RMCAT as "Modified" is a severe understatement. 2 big difference. 1. Is their intimidation strategy. 2. The contact is allowed almost anywhere, including the head, with almost any technique which is a much broader spectrum than hogu drills.

 

[puunui]

While I do not like the idea of sparring with the Hogu, I do like the idea of utilizing it for full contact. However to analogize it to RMCAT as "Modified" is a severe understatement. 2 big difference. 1. Is their intimidation strategy. 2. The contact is allowed almost anywhere, including the head, with almost any technique which is a much broader spectrum than hogu drills.

Try reading the books again. Peyton's focus in on full contact training, and the idea of continuous striking, which he feels traditional martial arts lack. Hogu drills are full contact as well as continuous and if you want to talk about intimidation, then show up at nationals and draw steven lopez in your first fight. Or just try and show up at nationals period. Again, the reason why you don't understand these things is because you do not understand the modern competition training methods found in kukki taekwondo and frankly, I don't think that you want to understand.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Terrific. And when you do get your school started..

This is why I question whether or not you truly read others posts with a heart for understanding and even learning from them. If I can't accept any new students and have had to adopt a waiting list...I already have a school going. And have had for decades.

...no one from kukki taekwondo will criticize you for failing to offer competition poomsae or sparring training to your students.

They don't. But I do get them sent to me for SD training. This isn't a slight against KKW TKD, I just offer something they don't receive in that format.

Make a good living doing that?

Do you consider this as a requisite for success? I teach for free as I have a career, which you already knew.

Another thing that they don't want is to go easter egg hunting through forms looking for "self defense applications" that the instructor reverse engineered into them. If they did, then the large large large super large large successful successful super successful successful kukki taekwondo schools that dominate the martial arts market would be offering that right now.

You weren't clear, how large? :ultracool

And actually, the adults do seek me out and that is one of the reasons. You simply can't claim to speak for everyone. And children, as has been discussed already have different needs. KKW TKD has a great following in sport applications, and that is great. They don't need SD applications from the forms as it wouldn't be useful in KKW competition. But the applications are there for those that wish to learn them. That's where 'we' come in and why we are sought out.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

A small vocal minority, especially non taekwondo, non kukki taekwondo types, like to come here and disparage taekwondo every chance they get. I'm just here to present facts in the face of false accusation.

Who are these people? And how have they disparaged TKD?

 

[puunui]

This is why I question whether or not you truly read others posts with a heart for understanding and even learning from them. If I can't accept any new students and have had to adopt a waiting list...I already have a school going. And have had for decades.

How many students do you have? And where do you teach? I think you said you work out out of your garage, but not sure if that is the same place where you have your school.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

You guys need a sandbox somewhere to throw the contents of your diapers at each other. For God's sake, grow up some.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

How many students do you have?

What does that have to do with this thread?

And where do you teach?

What does that have to do with this thread?

I think you said you work out out of your garage, but not sure if that is the same place where you have your school.

No sir, I said I workout in my garage. I have built a gym (as in benches, power rack, T-bar, weight racks etc) in my garage where I workout in preparation for an upcoming bodybuilding competition. I do not teach martial arts out of my garage, there's no room!

Back on topic;

Loren Christenson (sp?) has written (or compiled) two good books called the 'Fighters Fact Book' and the 'Fighters Fact Book 2'. Each have very good chapters by various martial artists from different disciplines that touch on real world altercations. Both from a professional i.e. L.E., bouncer etc and civilian standpoint.

 

[puunui]

What does that have to do with this thread?

You brought up the fact that you teach for decades and that you have a waiting list for students to join. Just following up on that. Should we start a new topic so that your answer doesn't distract from this thread?

 

[jks9199]

I would have sworn I saw something about Martial Talk being a place for "Friendly Discussion About Martial Arts"... Oh, yeah... It's there in the header.

Let me once again encourage people to make use of the "Ignore" list. We on the staff here recognize that there are some folks who just plain cannot get along. We aren't going to let them ruin the party for everyone else as they do their own personal on-line monkey dances, so we provide them a way to simply not see those what those folks post. If you can't manage that, stick to the topics, keep it polite, and don't be asshats about it.

ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please keep the conversation polite and respectful.

jks9199
MT Assistant Adminstrator

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I wanted to touch base again on the Fighter's Fact Book 2. The first one iirc was entirely Loren Christensen. The second had the following authors that contributed; Lt. Col. Dave Grossman, Iain Abernethy, Rory Miller, Lawrence Kane, Kris Wilder, Alain Burrese, Richard Dimitri, Mark Mireless and Dan Anderson.

I found this to be a very interesting read and touches in many places on the topic of the thread and some of the follow-up comments on what happens after the initial attack. Everything from in-fighting to kicking to improvised weapons to fighting when wounded etc. May be of interest.