Re No Peace in the Holy Land

[Tez3]

Are you saying, then, that when the Zionists tried to ally themselves with the Nazis, it was "evil bedfellows," but when the Grand Mufti of Palestine did it it was "duplicitous?"

I didn't say it was duplicitious at all, I said that he did it. I didn't say either that getting into bed with the Nazis wasn't evil, I said people make decisions that are wrong in hindsight. They were desparate to save their people, perhaps they considered the cost of allying themselves with the Nazis worth the lives of their people. What would you do to save your loved ones?
The Mufti went to the Nazis as an admirer of Hitler and his idealogy, if anyone was duplicitous it would have been the Nazis, they had no more love for Arabs than they had for Jews.

 

[elder999]

What would you do to save your loved ones?
.

Sell U.S. proprietary and export-protected aviation technology to the People's Republic of China, apparently.....

Spend half of their intelligence assets spying on their "ally" the U.S., apparently....

Spend a great deal of resources on industrial espionage against the U.S. defense industry, apparently.....

Target and penetrate over 125 U.S. defense related facilities, including the offices and homes of U.S. personnel in the first six months of 2001 alone, apparently....

I could go on, and on, and on, and on......pretty good thanks for over $2 billion a year in U.S. tax-dollars, ain't it? :lol:

 

[Tez3]

Sell U.S. proprietary and export-protected aviation technology to the People's Republic of China, apparently.....

Spend half of their intelligence assets spying on their "ally" the U.S., apparently....

Spend a great deal of resources on industrial espionage against the U.S. defense industry, apparently.....

Target and penetrate over 125 U.S. defense related facilities, including the offices and homes of U.S. personnel in the first six months of 2001 alone, apparently....

I could go on, and on, and on, and on......pretty good thanks for over $2 billion a year in U.S. tax-dollars, ain't it? :lol:

Could be worse. You know of course that the US also spies on the UK, as we do on you. We also spend a good deal of time, effort and money on industrial and military espionage against each other. A little while ago we caught a US serviceman alledgedly trying to get into a British MOD establishment. All hushed up of course you just don't spy on your allies do we?
It's the Great Game, all countries play it, Britain has been since Elizabethan times, it's not an Israeli thing particularly. Watch for the French btw lol!

 

[elder999]

Could be worse. You know of course that the US also spies on the UK, as we do on you. We also spend a good deal of time, effort and money on industrial and military espionage against each other. A little while ago we caught a US serviceman alledgedly trying to get into a British MOD establishment. All hushed up of course you just don't spy on your allies do we?
It's the Great Game, all countries play it, Britain has been since Elizabethan times, it's not an Israeli thing particularly. Watch for the French btw lol!

I suppose that makes it ok then.

Seriously, the problem isn't espionage, or even industrial espionage, as much as it is Israel's willingness to do business with entities that aren't in U.S. interests, like the sale of technology-our technology-to Red China, when that sale is strictly outide the contracted agreements.

Of course, the espionage part sucks, but as you say, it's almost to be expected.

 

[Tez3]

I suppose that makes it ok then.

Seriously, the problem isn't espionage, or even industrial espionage, as much as it is Israel's willingness to do business with entities that aren't in U.S. interests, like the sale of technology-our technology-to Red China, when that sale is strictly outide the contracted agreements.

Of course, the espionage part sucks, but as you say, it's almost to be expected.

Well America does things that are against the British interests ( and we're supposed to be 'cousins', family not just another country that America helps), against Isreals interests, and a lot of the time against America's interests. You don't buy countries, you can help them, be allies with them but you can't buy them. America has a problem with China because it's communist, the rest of the world doesn't always see it the same way as America which I know annoys Americans. Are you annoyed that Israel is allegedly selling the technology or that America isn't?
America is Saudi Arabia's biggest trading partner, do you imagine they aren't looking at your technology and who do you think they are selling onto? yep China and Syria and Iran.
In January last year Bush gave Saudi 20 billion dollars worth of arms, now where do you think thats been traded to?
In a West Point study it was found that 40% of the terrorists who attack Americans in Iraq were from Saudi. where does Bin Laden come from? Saudi.
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N19629188.htm

Incidentally America is the worlds biggest arms dealer, selling arms to basically any country that wants it, a lot of them very undemocratic.

http://www.worldpolicy.org/projects/arms/reports/wawjune2005.html

 

[elder999]

. Are you annoyed that Israel is allegedly selling the technology or that America isn't?

Well. America is selling it-to Israel, oftne under the implicit condition that they not sell it to people like the Chinese. By doing so, they've broken an agreement with us.

.America is Saudi Arabia's biggest trading partner, do you imagine they aren't looking at your technology and who do you think they are selling onto? yep China and Syria and Iran.

You seriously overestimate the Saudi's capabilities in this regard.

.
In January last year Bush gave Saudi 20 billion dollars worth of arms, now where do you think thats been traded to?

Since it was arms in that were pretty much non-transferrable, i.e., land based weapons systems and aircraft, they haven't traded them to anyone.

IN any case, it's not like I'm at all happy with Mr. Bush, who did that deal against the wishes of Congress and Israel, for doing so.

Pretty sure we were talking about Israel, not our rather ridiculous relationship with the House of Saud.

. Incidentally America is the worlds biggest arms dealer, selling arms to basically any country that wants it, a lot of them very undemocratic.

http://www.worldpolicy.org/projects/arms/reports/wawjune2005.html

Don't feel very good about that, but I feel even worse about the corporate welfare disguised as military aid to a country whose chief "U.S. interest" seems to be the misery of their neighbors, for which we get spied upon and have our secrets sold in return. :lol:

 

[Tez3]

Well. America is selling it-to Israel, oftne under the implicit condition that they not sell it to people like the Chinese. By doing so, they've broken an agreement with us.



You seriously overestimate the Saudi's capabilities in this regard.



Since it was arms in that were pretty much non-transferrable, i.e., land based weapons systems and aircraft, they haven't traded them to anyone.

IN any case, it's not like I'm at all happy with Mr. Bush, who did that deal against the wishes of Congress and Israel, for doing so.

Pretty sure we were talking about Israel, not our rather ridiculous relationship with the House of Saud.





Don't feel very good about that, but I feel even worse about the corporate welfare disguised as military aid to a country whose chief "U.S. interest" seems to be the misery of their neighbors, for which we get spied upon and have our secrets sold in return. :lol:

Ere, are we the only two chatting here lol?

Well you could look after your secrets better! Americans sell your secrets too which is actually worse because thats treason.

My point is that Isreal isn't the only country that America 'trades' with but seems to be the only one that you expect to have hughly high moral standards. Saudi is a favoured trading partner of America and helps sustain terrorists yet nought is said.

America spies on Israel and nicks their technology!
http://www.jonathanpollard.org/2001/050901a.htm

Hell, the CIA spies on every country and interferes in it's internal political situations.
http://www.serendipity.li/cia/cia_oz/cia_oz1.htm




All you will ever get out of any country at the most is enlightened self interest. Each country will look after it's own interests in the end. Israel, America, UK are no different. Israel doesn't want it's neighbours at war with it, it doesn't want the misery of war, it just wants to be left alone.

 

[CanuckMA]

Those who claim there was a 'Nation of Palestine' are historically inaccurate.....the MOST accurate description of the situation between the collapse of the Ottoman Empire and the founding of Israel is as a region without a nation......that was up for grabs by whoever could grab it.....and Israel grabbed it!

There was no autonomous state between the conquest of the Roman Empire and the founding of the state of Israel by anyone in that region, jew, palestinian or otherwise......Palestine was a never a country, and the 'Palestinian people' are a fabrication to give legitimacy to the Islamic Arab world's desire to push Israel in to the sea!

Prior to 1948, Palestinian refered to Jews living in the British Mandate. The Arabs we Arabs, most called themselves Syrians.

Between 1948 and the early 60s, there was not much said about Palestinians, that is until the Egyptian Arafat needed a cause for his terrorism.

 

[Tez3]

Prior to 1948, Palestinian refered to Jews living in the British Mandate. The Arabs we Arabs, most called themselves Syrians.

Between 1948 and the early 60s, there was not much said about Palestinians, that is until the Egyptian Arafat needed a cause for his terrorism.

Absolutely!

 

[Ninjamom]

I agree that there was no 'nation' of Palestine. However, we can all agree that there were people living on the land in homes, with farms, with jobs, and with property.

Regardless of what 'they' were called, I think the real point to consider is what to *do* with them. Since 1948, the land of Gaza has not been formally annexed into Israel, nor has it been granted status as an independent state. Meanwhile, since 1948, the people living in Gaza have not been absorbed into Israel as citizens, nor have they been given independence. Unfortunately, this continued state of 'limbo' exacerbates the situation.

To grant full citizenship to all the occupants of Gaza and Samaria (the 'West Bank') would be demographic suicide for the democratic/representative state of Israel. To force the original residents of Gaza out on a 'Trail of Tears' into other countries would be demographic genocide (That's the UN definition - the forced expulsion or demise of a people-group). The worst course of action would be to sit and do nothing, letting the situation simmer for another 60 years with Gazans given neither rights, nor responsibilities, nor hope.

Israel has no choice but to defend itself against the continued attacks of Hamas. Maybe by destroying Hamas, Israel will establish enough security in the area to allow more rational heads in Gaza to work honestly towards a solution. A rational solution that doesn't entail genocide.

I'm not sure why some folks see conspiracy on the part of Israel, in actions where, in similar circumstances, we acknowledge human error on our own behalf.

Possibly because when the US has a 'friendly fire' incident, we don't follow up by strafing life rafts.

 

[CoryKS]

To force the original residents of Gaza out on a 'Trail of Tears' into other countries would be demographic genocide (That's the UN definition - the forced expulsion or demise of a people-group).

Please explain how the residents of Gaza differ from the residents of Egypt or Jordan. What makes them distinct and separate? How would it be "demographic genocide" to assimilate these Arabs into the Arab populations of the aforementioned countries?

 

[Tez3]

That is a very serious accusation to make without proof to back it up.
American investigations into the attack on the Liberty.

My original piece of copy didn't come out well so I've put the link to the page instead.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/liberty2.html

The captains report said nothing about strafing of the lifeboats which were empty anyway, the ship not having been abandoned. 'Witnesses' are said to have seen the Israelis gunboats fire at the lifeboats, witnesses have also said the Israelis were fired upon first by the Liberty.
Only a couple of days before the Isreali planes had been involved in another friendly fire incident where some of their own troops were killed, friendly fire is a sad tragic fact of war, to suggest that the Israelis fired on lifeboats without proof is unnecessary

 

[Tez3]

Jews in Gaza


The Jewish community of Gaza City was expelled (lynching was prevented by the Arab A-Shawa family), during the 1929 anti-Jewish Intifada, which exterminated the Jewish community of Hebron. Rather than punishing the lynching mob, the British Police evacuated the Gaza Jewish community. In 1885, the Jewish leadership decided to resettle three historical Jewish locations – Lydda, Nablus and Gaza. The largest nucleus (30 families) was referred to Gaza. A Jewish day school and a Jewish-managed bank were established in 1910 and 1914 respectively. Upon the eruption of WWI, the Ottomans deported the Jewish community. Jews returned to Gaza in 1919, operating its windmill and hotel and reopening the Shimshon (Samson) Jewish day school. They left for a few months due to the 1921 Intifada. Former President Ben-Zvi and the Jewish daily Halevanon wrote about the 1870-72 and 1882/3 Jewish presence in Gaza, following the 1799-1820 flight of its Jews, during the Napoleon siege, which devastated the city. The 1492-1497 Jewish expulsion from Spain/Portugal directed some families to Gaza, headed by the seven Castil brothers. The flow of Jews to Gaza was bolstered upon the Ottoman takeover in 1517 (116 Jewish families in 1549), producing prominent Jewish clergies, such as Chief Rabbi Israel Najarah (1620), the composer of “Yah Ribon Olam” hymn, who was buried in Gaza, succeeded by his son, Rabbi Moshe Najarah. The 17th century prosperity of the Gaza Jewish community was aborted in 1660, when eerie Shabtai Zvi was declared at the Gaza synagogue as the supposed Messiah.

1. Renowned travelers documented Jewish presence in Gaza. In 1384, Georgio Gucci complimented Gaza Jews for producing excellent wine. In 1395, De Angelir noted that the Jews of Gaza had to wear a yellow cloth. In 1481, Meshulam from Voltera noted that Gaza Jews were entrenched in Gaza, since they owned substantial real estate, including vineyards and controlled the wine industry. He was impressed with the hilltop synagogue, which was destroyed in 1831 by Egypt's Ibrahim Pasha (the Gaza hilltop neighborhood is currently known as Khart Al Yahood, the Jewish Neighborhood). In 1488, Ovadia from Bartenura described the wholesome Jewish community of Gaza. In 1507, Martin Baumgarten noted the presence of Jews in Gaza and Hebron.
   
2. Gaza substituted Jerusalem (135-600 AD) – just like Tiberias – when Rome prohibited Jewish pilgrimage to Jerusalem. The Gaza Jewish community dates back to biblical time, including – as noted in Cloakroom #164 – the era of the Patriarchs, Judges and Kings. Jonathan the Maccabee took over Gaza in 145 BC and Shimon the Maccabee settled it, King Alexander Yanai-Janeus renewed the Jewish community in 96 BC, which was expelled by Rome in 61 BC. Rome’s Constantinus The Great failed in his attempt to convert the 4th century AD Jewish community to Christianity. Remnants of ancient synagogues were discovered in Gaza, most notably a mosaic floor next to the Gaza pier, dating back to 508/9 AD.
   
3. Gaza has always been a critical security asset, constituting an invasion route, beginning with Egypt’s Mentuhotep 2nd (2004-1992 BC), Sennacherib (681-704 BC), Ptolemi 1st (284-304 BC), Alexander the Great, Napoleon, General Alenby and the 1948 Egyptian military. The Gaza population has recently been (at least since early 20th century) a terrorist safe haven. Control of Gaza (until 1993) constrained Palestinian terrorism, as far as incitement, recruitment, training, operational maneuverability, manufacturing and smuggling of explosives, missiles, etc. Disengagement from Gaza has dramatically exacerbated terrorism.

The aforementioned data was researched by Haggai Huberman <[email protected]>, an expert on the Gaza Jewish community

 

[Tez3]

Who Were the 1948 Refugees?

by Yoram Ettinger
[email protected]​

February 4, 2001​

1. 630,000 Palestinian, and 820,000 Jewish, refugees were produced by the 1948 war, which was launched by Palestinians, Syria, Iraq, Egypt, Jordan and Lebanon against Israel.
   
2. The Jewish refugees - from Muslim countries - were absorbed (590,000 in Israel), as were millions of European refugees in the aftermath of WWII. In contrast, Palestinian refugees have been confined to camps, by Arab and PLO leaders, fomenting terrorism. None of the financial aid received by the PLO, from the US and other countries, has been directed at the refugee camps!
   
3. 810,000 Arabs resided in Israel (defined by the 1949 ceasefire lines) on November 30, 1947. At the end of the war there were 168,000 Arabs in Israel (including 14,000 Bedouins, down from 66,000 before the war). Considering the 1%-2% war fatalities (Israel lost 1% of its people!), the 52,000 displaced Bedouins, who joined tribes in Jordan and Sinai, the Palestinians who rejoined their families in Lebanon and Syria (please see below) and the wealthy Palestinians who were resettled in the Mideast and in other parts of the globe, the actual number of Palestinians in refugee camps, in 1949, was no more than 550,000!
   
4. Many Palestinians are descendants of Egyptian, Sudanese, Syrian and Lebanese migrants, who settled in the current boundaries of Israel during 1830-1945. Migration by Arab citizens of the Ottoman Empire did not require any permit until WWI. Migrant workers were imported by the Ottoman and (since 1919) by the British authorities for infrastructure projects: The port of Haifa, the Haifa-Qantara, Haifa-Edrei, Haifa-Nablus and Jerusalem-Jaffa railroads, military installations, roads, quarries, reclamation of wetlands, etc. Illegal Arab laborers were also attracted by the relative boom, stimulated by Jewish immigration, which expanded labor-intensive enterprises (construction, agriculture, etc.).
   
5. The (1831-1840) conquest, by Egypt's Mohammed Ali, was solidified by thousands of Egyptians settling empty spaces between Gaza and Tul-Karem up to the Hula Valley. They followed in the footsteps of Egyptian draft dodgers, who fled Egypt before 1831. The British traveler, H.B. Tristram, identified Egyptian migrants in the Beit-Shean Valley, Acre, Hadera, Netanya and Jaffa. The British Palestine Exploration Fund indicated that Egyptian neighborhoods proliferated in and around Jaffa: Saknet el-Mussariya, Abu Kebir, Abu Derwish, Sumeil, Sheikh Muwanis, Salame', Fejja, etc. Many of those who fled in 1948 attempted to reunite with their families of origin.
   
6. "30,000-36,000 Syrian migrants (Huranis) entered Palestine during the last few months alone" (La Syrie daily, August 12, 1934). Syrian rulers have always considered the area as a southern province of Greater Syria. Az-ed-Din el-Qassam, the role-model of Hamas terrorism, who terrorized Jews in British Mandate Palestine, was a Syrian, as were Said el-A'az, a leader of the 1936-38 anti-Jewish pogroms and Kaukji, the commander-in-chief of the Arab mercenaries terrorizing Jews in the thirties and forties.
   
7. Tristram, and other travelers, identified over 15 Arab nationalities who settled in Jaffa. Libyan migrants and refugees settled in Gedera, south of Tel Aviv. Algerian refugees (Mugrabis), escaping the French conquest of 1830, settled in Safed, Tiberias and other parts of the Galilee. Their leader, Abd el-Kader el-Hasseini, headquartered in Syria! Circassian refugees, fleeing Russian oppression (1878), Moslems from Bosnia, Turkomans, Yemenite Arabs (1908) and Bedouin tribes from Jordan (escaping wars and famine) diversified Arab demography there. The aforementioned data are contained in the book The Claim Of Dispossession (Arieh Avneri, 1982) and in From Time Immemorial (Joan Peters, Harper, 1984).
   
8. Habib Issa, Secretary General of the Arab League: In 1948, Azzam Pasha, the former Secretary General, "assured Arabs that the occupation of Palestine, including Tel Aviv, would be as simple as a military promenade...Brotherly advice was given to the Arabs of Palestine to leave their land, homes and property, and to stay temporarily in neighboring fraternal states." (Al-Hoda Lebanese daily, New York, June 8, 1951).

 

[Makalakumu]

I posted this thread regarding the attack on the USS Liberty.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=71623

 

[Tez3]

I posted this thread regarding the attack on the USS Liberty.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=71623

I saw that, good idea as the argument over that detracts from this one.

 

[elder999]

That is a very serious accusation to make without proof to back it up.
American investigations into the attack on the Liberty.

American investigations also show that Kennedy was killed by a lone gunman, there were never any American efforts to kill Fidel Castro, the Roswell crash in 1948 was a "weather balloon" :lol:, and that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction......

.....further investigation reveals that several high-level U.S. military, intelligence and State Department personnel, as well as many of the survivors of the U.S.S. Liberty believe(d) that the attack was deliberate.

Of course, that's all I am going to say about this topic. There's another thread on the Liberty that I assume explores these issues, here.

"Fog of War" indeed.

Back on topic, though:

UN rights chief wants investigation of Gaza abuses

GENEVA &#8211; The U.N. High Commissioner for Human Rights called Friday for an independent war crimes investigation in Gaza after reports that Israeli forces shelled a house full of Palestinian civilians, killing 30 people.
Navi Pillay told an emergency meeting of the U.N. Human Rights Council that the harm to Israeli civilians caused by Hamas rockets was unacceptable, but did not excuse any abuses carried out by Israeli forces in response.
Pillay went further in an interview with the British Broadcasting Corp., saying an incident in Gaza City this week "appears to have all the elements of war crimes."

As seen:here.

 

[Tez3]

American investigations also show that Kennedy was killed by a lone gunman, there were never any American efforts to kill Fidel Castro, the Roswell crash in 1948 was a "weather balloon" :lol:, and that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction......

.....further investigation reveals that several high-level U.S. military, intelligence and State Department personnel, as well as many of the survivors of the U.S.S. Liberty believe(d) that the attack was deliberate.

Of course, that's all I am going to say about this topic. There's another thread on the Liberty that I assume explores these issues, here.

"Fog of War" indeed.

Back on topic, though:



As seen:here.

Ah but you as usual post more than a bald statement of blame You give something to get the teeth into and argue for or against!

 

[Tez3]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090109/ap_on_re_mi_ea/un_un_gaza_rights

The UN says it want an investigation but states that Israel is behaving unacceptably before the investigation has started or made conclusions. Of course if Israeli troops have behaved in a way thats inhumane they should be puncished and I think you'll find that that will happen. As I said before Israel is a free country and many Jews will speak out ( and not be killed or kneecapped for it) against any war crimes.

 

[Ninjamom]

Please explain how the residents of Gaza differ from the residents of Egypt or Jordan.

The residents of Gaza live in Gaza. The residents of Egypt and Jordan live in Egypt and Jordan.

It is immoral to force the Gazans out of their homes just because you don't want them there. It is no different than "honorable" men in times past forcing innocent Cherokee men, women, and children on a Trail of Tears halfway across the country (hence my previous comparison).

How would it be "demographic genocide" to assimilate these Arabs into the Arab populations of the aforementioned countries?

Oh, excuse me. My mistake. It's not genocide. It would be ethnic cleansing. Still immoral, still a crime against humanity, but at least we all can rest assured we have our terms straight.