Israel and Hamas: War looms

[CanuckMA]

There can't possibly be two valid points of view on this?

Actually, no.

The Palestinians have had too many opportunities to have a state, starting with the original partition plan. When you indoctrinate kids to kill the other person, when you set your rocket launchers in the middle of civilian population to maximize your own civilian casualties if there is retaliation, when you deliberately target civilians, you are the bad guy.

At some point, the world has to truly admit to itself that Israel is the humane, restrained nation here. Let's face it, the IDF could get up and flatten Gaza and still be home for bagels and lox.

You realize that even at the financial and human cost, Israel was about to start a ground war. The only reason for that is because only boots on the ground can be very selective of targets.

 

[Big Don]

There can't possibly be two valid points of view on this?



I don't follow you. What's the connection?

Firing rockets with no guidance into areas with children and families is a valid point of view how?

 

[arnisador]

The Palestinians have had too many opportunities to have a state

But everyone wants their state in the same place.

At some point, the world has to truly admit to itself that Israel is the humane, restrained nation here.

There's a long history. Has Israel's treatment of the Palestinians given them no legitimate grievances at all? Their complaints are entirely fabricated?

I'm for Israel's right to defend itself in the current situation, but to claim purity on their part and simple malfeasance on the part of the Palestinians is not going to wash.

 

[CanuckMA]

But everyone wants their state in the same place.



There's a long history. Has Israel's treatment of the Palestinians given them no legitimate grievances at all? Their complaints are entirely fabricated?

I'm for Israel's right to defend itself in the current situation, but to claim purity on their part and simple malfeasance on the part of the Palestinians is not going to wash.

Israel's 'treatment' of the Palestinians is overwhelmingly the fault of the Palestinians. They need to do 3 things.

1) Stop firing rockets and blowing **** up
2) recognize israel as a nation
3) Sit down with Israel and figure out borders that make sense.

As much as the Pals ***** about Israel's refusal to comply to UN resolutions, they started it by not complying to 181.


BTW, this is the state they could have had in 1948


They could have had one after the 48 war instead of being occupied by Egypt and Jordan.
They could have had one after the '67 or '73 war. They could have had one after Oslo I, Olso II, Camp David, or at any time they met those 3 conditions.

 

[Big Don]

 

[WC_lun]

As long as the Palestinians refuse to recognize that Israel is a country and exsist, as long as Palestians are willing to perform actions that are a detrimate to thier own people, and as long as Iran keeps stirring the pot, there will be no long lasting peace. Yes, there are things that the Israelies have done to keep the simmer going as well, such as bull dozing houses and supporting settlers on agreed upon Palestinian land. First and foremost, the Palestinian people must show they want peace. That means no more missiles into Israel and if someone does launch a missle into Israel, they must not be treated as heroes. Palestinians live by the grace of the Israelis right now. Humas should be smart enough to realize this, but they are told often that Arabs and Iran will support them if it comes to war, which they will not. None of those countries will risk thier fragile economies and the devestation of war with Israel or America.

 

[arnisador]

All this sounds great if there is someone bringing them both to the negotiating table. Otherwise, it's just an endorsement of the sad status quo. The current bombing and counterbombing needs to be stopped; but the whole situation has to be addressed to stop the problems permanently.

 

[granfire]

All this sounds great if there is someone bringing them both to the negotiating table. Otherwise, it's just an endorsement of the sad status quo. The current bombing and counterbombing needs to be stopped; but the whole situation has to be addressed to stop the problems permanently.

It's like the race relations in the US (well, sort of, but more so):
As long as people profit from the status quo it will continue.

 

[Big Don]

Hamas cries victory; truce with Israel holds, Yahoo News/AP

Muslim Brotherhood leader blasts peace efforts with Israel after Morsi helps broker cease-fire Fox News/AP

Negotiating with these animals is perceived by them as weakness.

 

[Big Don]

All this sounds great if there is someone bringing them both to the negotiating table. Otherwise, it's just an endorsement of the sad status quo. The current bombing and counterbombing needs to be stopped; but the whole situation has to be addressed to stop the problems permanently.

Then you MUST blame the TERRORISTS and NOT the Israelis. Because, were there no terrorist attacks, there would be no need for Israel to shoot back.

 

[Big Don]

As long as the Palestinians refuse to recognize that Israel is a country and exsist, as long as Palestians are willing to perform actions that are a detrimate to thier own people, and as long as Iran keeps stirring the pot, there will be no long lasting peace.

You are 100% correct so far.

Yes, there are things that the Israelies have done to keep the simmer going as well, such as bull dozing houses and supporting settlers on agreed upon Palestinian land.

Nope, sorry, housing people is not the same as firing rockets and suicide bombers.

First and foremost, the Palestinian people must show they want peace. That means no more missiles into Israel and if someone does launch a missle into Israel, they must not be treated as heroes. Palestinians live by the grace of the Israelis right now. Humas should be smart enough to realize this, but they are told often that Arabs and Iran will support them if it comes to war, which they will not. None of those countries will risk thier fragile economies and the devestation of war with Israel or America.

Sometime, in the next days or weeks, rockets will fly from Gaza, or Syria, or Lebanon, into Israel, are the Israelis supposed to just fort up and take it?

 

[WC_lun]

Don, really? If someone bull dozes your house down would you tell me you hate them any less because at least they didn't shoot a missile at you? The situation between the Palastinians and Israel is far more complicated than those mean ole Palastinians are shooting rockets. Peace is going to require a more nuanced aproach than kill the Palastinians because they launch rockets. That means understanding both side's beef with the other.

Israel will take rocket launches into thier territory for a bit. Not because they are passive, but because it strengthens thier case against Humas when Egypt fails to control them. It will quell some of the negative reactions from Isreal's nieghbors. Again, it isn't as simple as you make it seem.

 

[CanuckMA]

All this sounds great if there is someone bringing them both to the negotiating table. Otherwise, it's just an endorsement of the sad status quo. The current bombing and counterbombing needs to be stopped; but the whole situation has to be addressed to stop the problems permanently.

They both were at the negotiating table.

Remember Olso I, Olso II?

Remember Camp David where Israel agreed to 97% of what the PA wanted, should have been down to negotiating the final details. Barak was willing to sell a solution that could potentially kill his political future. Arafat went back home and started the Second Intifada.

It's not sitting them down at the table. It's having the Palestinians willing to actually negotiate a peace accord. That starts by recognizing Israel's right to exist and renouncing terrorism.

 

[Big Don]

That starts by recognizing Israel's right to exist and renouncing terrorism.

Not just in words, in deeds.

 

[seasoned]

That starts by recognizing Israel's right to exist and renouncing terrorism.

Yes.

Not just in words, in deeds.

And yes again.

Peace comes with compromise, compromise comes with a willingness for peace.
No one wants to appear weak, and there, is part of a bigger picture.

 

[Big Don]

Remember and recognize that Israel pulled out of Gaza several years ago?
That was supposed to bring peace...

 

[Tez3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel's_unilateral_disengagement_plan

On the subject of razed homes, the Israelis razed more Jewish homes than Palestininas. It was the ideal way to go about it but it showed the willingness of Israel to make the peace plans work, note what the Palestinians did when they took over the remaining Jewish homes.

"The evacuated settlements were razed by demolition crews, with 2,530 homes being destroyed. All but two of the synagogues of the settlements were left intact. The remaining two synagogues, whose construction allowed for them to be taken apart and reassembled, were dismantled and rebuilt in Israel. The demolition of the homes was completed on September 1, while the Shirat HaYam hotel was demolished later.[SUP][30][/SUP]
On August 28, the IDF began dismantling Gush Katif's 48-grave cemetery. All of the bodies were removed by special teams of soldiers supervised by the Military Rabbinate and reburied in locations of their families' choosing. In accordance with Jewish law, all soil touching the remains was also transferred, and the dead were given second funerals, with the families observing a one-day mourning period. All coffins were draped in the Israeli flag on the way to reburial. The transfer was completed on September 1.[SUP][31][/SUP][SUP][32][/SUP]
The IDF also began withdrawing its forces in the Gaza Strip, and had withdrawn 95% of its military equipment by September 1. On September 7, the IDF announced that it planned to advance its full withdrawal from the Gaza Strip to September 12, pending cabinet approval.[SUP][33][/SUP] It was also announced that in the area evacuated in the West Bank the IDF planned to transfer all control (excluding building permits and anti-terrorism) to the PNA - the area will remain "Area C" (full Israeli control) de jure, but "Area A" (full PNA control) de facto.
On September 11, the Israeli cabinet revised an earlier decision to destroy the synagogues of the settlements. The Palestinian Authority protested Israel's decision, arguing that it would rather Israel dismantle the synagogues.[SUP][34][/SUP] On September 11, a ceremony was held when the last Israeli flag was lowered in the IDF's Gaza Strip divisional headquarters.[SUP][35][/SUP] All remaining IDF forces left the Gaza Strip in the following hours. The last soldier left the strip, and the Kissufim gate was closed in the early morning of September 12.[SUP][36][/SUP] This completed the Israeli pullout from the Gaza Strip. However, an official handover ceremony was cancelled after the Palestinian Authority boycotted it in response to Israel's decision not to demolish the synagogues.
In addition to the synagogues, all of the greenhouses in the settlements were left intact after the Economic Cooperation Foundation raised $14 million to buy the greenhouses for the Palestinian Authority.[SUP][37][/SUP]
On September 20, the IDF temporarily entered the northern Gaza Strip, constructing a buffer zone parallel to the border near Beit Hanoun before pulling out.[SUP][38][/SUP]

Residents of Elei Sinai camping in Yad Mordechai, just over the border from their former homes.



A protest camp in Tel Aviv from members of Netzer Hazani left without homes.


Bedouin citizens of Israel from the village of Dahaniya in the Gaza Strip were evacuated and resettled in Arad. The village had had a long history of cooperation with Israel, and the residents themselves had asked to be evacuated due to security concerns.[SUP][39][/SUP][SUP][40][/SUP][SUP][41][/SUP]
On September 22, the IDF finished evacuating the four settlements in the northern West Bank. While the residents of Ganim and Kadim, mostly middle-class seculars, had long since left their homes, several families and about 2,000 outsiders tried to prevent the evacuation of Sa-Nur and Homesh, which had a larger percent of observant population. Following negotiations, the evacuation was completed relatively peacefully. The settlements were subsequently razed, with 270 homes being bulldozed. In Sa-Nur, the synagogue was left intact, but was buried under mounds of sand by bulldozers to prevent its destruction by the Palestinians.[SUP][42][/SUP]
Following Israel's withdrawal, Palestinian mobs entered the settlements waving PLO and Hamas flags, firing gunshots into the air and setting off firecrackers, and chanting slogans. Four synagogues were vandalized, looted, and torched. Palestinians also looted objects from destroyed homes.[SUP][43][/SUP] Hamas leaders held celebratory prayers in Kfar Darom synagogue as mobs continued to ransack and loot synagogues.[SUP][44][/SUP] Palestinian Authority security forces did not intervene, and announced that the synagogues would be destroyed. Less than 24 hours after the withdrawal, Palestinian Authority bulldozers began to demolish the remaining synagogues.[SUP][45][/SUP][SUP][46][/SUP][SUP][47][/SUP] The settlements' greenhouses, which were left intact by Israel, were also looted by Palestinian mobs. Palestinian Authority security forces attempted to stop them, but did not have enough manpower to be effective. In some places, there was no security, while some police officers joined the looters.[SUP][48][/SUP]

 

[Sukerkin]

Amongst the many reports and images I have seen over the decades about the war that has flared with varying degrees of heat in that region of the world, there is one that has stuck in my mind from the very first time I saw it. It's in a book called "The Israeli War Machine" by Ian V. Hogg. On page 164 of that book (I just went to check and, after about thirty years it took me all of a minute to find the picture I recalled) there is a fairly poor quality photo of a young Israeli woman.

What caught me so strongly about the shot?

Well, for a start she is nine months pregnant. She is standing outside a West Bank kindergarten in the bright sun. She has shades, a headscarf, flowery print dress and, shoulder-slung but in hand, an uzi.

It's not a particularly well taken photo but that shocking juxtaposition of a woman so close to giving birth having the necessity to stand armed guard on a school for the very young really brought home to me just how much of a fortress mentality the Israeli's have had to have. After all, it's not paranoia if they really are out to get you.

 

[Tez3]

If you think the Israelis are hard on the Palestinians think on the fact that the commercial greenhouses were bought for the Palestinians at a cost of $14m and they smashed them all up. They could have instead run a very successful market garden business bringing jobs and a measure of prosperity to the area. They smashed up and razed the synagogues which apart could have been used as schools, communitry centres, clinics etc and they smashed up and destroyed houses that Palestinians could have lived in. Does this sound like the Israelis are the ones making the Palestininans suffer unduly?

Israeli help for Palestinians in a quake. http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/05/15/us-palestinians-israel-relief-idUSBRE84E0YW20120515

http://www.politico.com/blogs/ben-s...acks-aid-to-palestinian-authority-108380.html

Israeli humanitarian aid to Gaza.