Israel and Hamas: War looms

[granfire]

Yup--really bad idea. Ensured WWII...



...but that specific form of WWII, including the Holocaust, was less clearly predictable. Still...



...plenty of Jews left Europe before WWI, even (including my wife's grandparents) because it was already problematic there. Anti-Semitism has long roots and the Jews would have wanted, and benefited from, their own country even without WWII.

I was not really talking about Europe.
In pretty much all countries along the mediterranean coast and the middle east were enclaves of Jewish people.

But a lot of people left for the new world before WWI...so that is neither here nor there either.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Good bye Ottoman Empire...hello unrest in the Middle East, it is an incredibly complicated area of the world what an incredibly complicated and convoluted history

But bad feelings between the Middle East and the west go back further than WW I and promise made that were not kept. They still tell stories in the Middle East about the Crusades, and they are generally not painting a positive picture about any of those we call Crusaders

 

[Tez3]

Good bye Ottoman Empire...hello unrest in the Middle East, it is an incredibly complicated area of the world what an incredibly complicated and convoluted history

But bad feelings between the Middle East and the west go back further than WW I and promise made that were not kept. They still tell stories in the Middle East about the Crusades, and they are generally not painting a positive picture about any of those we call Crusaders

True. memories are long and mistreatment is never forgotten.

 

[Tez3]

As if this man's pain isn't enough to bear he's being used as propaganda, so very sad.

 

[Big Don]

From ABC:
The Israel-Hamas cease-fire brokered by the Obama administration, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Egyptian president Mohammed Morsi, and announced today is fragile, White House officials acknowledged.

“The way we view this is that it’s an important step,” a senior White House official said, “but our concerns are Egypt can’t control all of Hamas,” the ruling party in Gaza designated a terrorist group by the U.S. State Department, “and Hamas doesn’t control every extremist with a rocket in Gaza. So there is a tenuous nature to this.”
___________________
What does this mean? It means nobody is shooting now, but, as soon as the nutjobs get some more rockets into Gaza, they'll start shooting at Israel again. Then, Israel will use targeted fire to take out the current terrorist leader, and the nutjobs will start screaming Israel is murdering children and otherwise oppressing them. You could argue that, but, you'd be arguing against decades of history.
From Politics and Finance blog:

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[Tez3]

In the first couple of hours of the ceasefire Hamas fired 20 rockets into Israel.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/162382

Hamas killed six of their own, shooting them then dragging them through the street tied to motorbikes. Killing their own is quite common, it keeps their people 'in line' I suppose.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/feedarticle/10538581

 

[Big Don]

In the first couple of hours of the ceasefire Hamas fired 20 rockets into Israel.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/162382

Hamas killed six of their own, shooting them then dragging them through the street tied to motorbikes. Killing their own is quite common, it keeps their people 'in line' I suppose.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/feedarticle/10538581

Had Israel RETURNED fire, you know, the way they do, they would have been pilloried as oppressors or some other ********

 

[Tez3]

It was ever thus since the bully David beat Goliath.

 

[Big Don]

Hey Tez, can you name any other instance where the nation (state/person/whatever) clearly acting in self defense is blamed?
The only thing that comes to my mind is blaming a rape victim for how she was dressed, i.e., "Miss, if you hadn't been wearing the short shorts and tube top, the rapist would have left you alone..."

 

[Big Don]

 

[CanuckMA]

In the first couple of hours of the ceasefire Hamas fired 20 rockets into Israel.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/162382

But they have the convenient excuse that it was other groups that did it.

 

[Tez3]

Hey Tez, can you name any other instance where the nation (state/person/whatever) clearly acting in self defense is blamed?
The only thing that comes to my mind is blaming a rape victim for how she was dressed, i.e., "Miss, if you hadn't been wearing the short shorts and tube top, the rapist would have left you alone..."

To be honest I can't. My shift partner is a Gurkha and he says it always worries the Nepalese that the Chinese might decide to invade them, he says Israel is a hope and proof that the little countries can stand up for themselves against overwhelming odds. Much not be much but hope is always a good thing.
I wish the people of Gaza well, most Israelis do actually, we think they are victims in this, they deserve so much more from their fellow Arabs. Iran doesn't care about them they are worth nothing to them which is awful. The Israelis and the Palestinians may be enemies for now ( Israel does hope for peace, always) but how much worse are the Palestinians 'friends' in dealing with them?

 

[granfire]

the Palestinians are the useful idiots in this game.

Frankly, to their 'friends' they are worth much more dead as poster children for the oppression and to point fingers at evil Israel.
(and apparently it does not even matter whom they are using, all victims are fair game)

I have heard the families of suicide bombers are paid somewhere around 20.000 dollars....life is cheap.

 

[Big Don]

I have heard the families of suicide bombers are paid somewhere around 20.000 dollars....life is cheap.

Saddam was one of those paying that fee, but, he was not a threat to anyone, remember...

 

[Tez3]

So very, very sad.

 

[granfire]

Saddam was one of those paying that fee, but, he was not a threat to anyone, remember...

Never said different.
But there were a lot of people (are, actually) with much deeper pockets who continue to pay the blood money.

 

[arnisador]

Hey Tez, can you name any other instance where the nation (state/person/whatever) clearly acting in self defense is blamed?

I'm not sure it's so clear who is the unambiguous "good guy" and who is the unambiguous "bad guy" here. Yes, Israel has the right to defend itself, but it could've done more to try to address the problems earlier. On Thanksgiving Day here in the U.S. I can see parallels to the American Revolution against the legitimate British govt. and parallels to the driving out of the Native Americans. (Please! I'm not saying it's exactly like either of those things.) A Palestinian with a bulldozed home might see more shades of grey than do you.

The only thing that comes to my mind is blaming a rape victim for how she was dressed

When can we start leaving rape analogies out of these things? Do people have no other rhetorical skills? That's the only thing that comes to your mind?

 

[Big Don]

Never said different.
But there were a lot of people (are, actually) with much deeper pockets who continue to pay the blood money.

Ideally, those people would be hunted down and killed.

 

[Big Don]

I'm not sure it's so clear who is the unambiguous "good guy" and who is the unambiguous "bad guy" here. Yes, Israel has the right to defend itself, but it could've done more to try to address the problems earlier. On Thanksgiving Day here in the U.S. I can see parallels to the American Revolution against the legitimate British govt. and parallels to the driving out of the Native Americans. (Please! I'm not saying it's exactly like either of those things.) A Palestinian with a bulldozed home might see more shades of grey than do you.



When can we start leaving rape analogies out of these things? Do people have no other rhetorical skills? That's the only thing that comes to your mind?

The unambiguous Bad guys fire unguided rockets into Israel causing numerous civilian casualties and then whine they are oppressed when the Israeli military uses surgical strikes to take out their terrorist leadership. The unambiguous good guys are the Israelis who, as a government do NOT discriminate based on religion, and don't indiscriminately fire rockets into their neighbor's land... The unambiguous bad guys were elected, and yet, failed to hold an election when the stated term of office was complete... If you can't figure that out, maybe you should see a proctologist about your rectal cranial inversion.
The Rape of Nanking is now a verbotten topic as well?

 

[arnisador]

If you can't figure that out, maybe you should see a proctologist about your rectal cranial inversion.

There can't possibly be two valid points of view on this?

The Rape of Nanking is now a verbotten topic as well?

I don't follow you. What's the connection?