Re No Peace in the Holy Land

[sgtmac_46]

Not arguing, not deciding, not judging-just discussing. Like I said, I try to avoid "the debate." I, too, have friends in Israel-better just not to discuss it; especially with those who refuse to see that suffering is universal, and hate diminishes us all, apparently.

On the other hand, over here in the U.S., we can't help but "support Israel" (not necessarily "support" you, Irene-you're British :lol. In 2007, the U.S. paid Israel $40 million to aid refugees, $120 million in "economic assistance," amd increased military aid to Israel to about $2.5 billion of our tax dollars.

$2.5 billion dollars given to Israel-not loaned, last year. The bulk of which Israel was obligated to turn around and spend on U.S. hardware-from U.S.corporations, though Israel is permitted to spend a portion on their own, mostly excellent, domestic defense products, and is able to contract some of those U.S. defense firms they buy hardware from to use Israeli parts in the manufacture of some of those items.

There, I think that's the big brush picture of all the convolutions and pemutations of the billions that we spend in military aid to Israel. Okay, maybe not all, but the other details don't offer much...:lol:

And we give $1.7 BILLION dollars to Egypt during the same time period, several hundred million for military assistance.......the notion of a unique relationship with Israel is mostly smoke and mirrors. We do have a tendency to buy our friends, and keep them paid......but that's not restricted to Israel.

So, again, why the fixation on ISRAEL?

 

[sgtmac_46]

I'd say that the LEHI group's (AKA, "the Stern gang) attempt to take part in WWII on the side of the REAL Third Reich against the British in the Middle East in exchange for promises of a Jewish homeland and emigration from Europe was equally, if not even more ironic.

the 'REAL Third Reich' what is the REAL third reich?!

As opposed to the 'fake' third Reich that the Grand Mufti of Palestine recruited Muslim SS UNITS FOR?!

I think your memory of history is mistaken, or distorted on the matter.....allow me....

"The Mufti was one of the initiators of the systematic extermination of European Jewry and had been a collaborator and adviser of Eichmann and Himmler in the execution of this plan. ... He was one of Eichmann's best friends and had constantly incited him to accelerate the extermination measures. I heard him say, accompanied by Eichmann, he had visited incognito the gas chamber of Auschwitz." -Dieter Wisliceny

 

[elder999]

the 'REAL Third Reich' what is the REAL third reich?!

As opposed to the 'fake' third Reich that the Grand Mufti of Palestine recruited Muslim SS UNITS FOR?!

I think your memory of history is mistaken, or distorted on the matter.....allow me....

Dude, you started it. I think your memory of yesterday is mistaken, or distorted on the matter...:lfao:....allow me:

Given the duplicity of Grand Mufti of Palestine (Arafat's uncle) with the REAL Third Reich, and his pressing of Hitler to come up with a final solution, the whole thing is rather ironic.

 

[Tez3]

I think the fixation on Israel is that many people feel they 'own' it somehow. Mostly it seems to be Christians who have a sense that because of familarity through the Bible and Christian teaching. Mostly this shows in welcome support for Israel but often means that Israel is somehow held up to higher standards than others. The 'Holy Land' shouldn't be inhabited by people with all too human failings. I beleive it has a lot to do as well with the belief that the Israelis will rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem which is supposed to happen before the 'end of the world' so many are looking forward too.
http://www.newgateministries.com/jerusalemchronicles/rebuilt-temple.html

I think too that the perception too is that Arabs ( whether Muslim or not) are somehow not quite to be trusted, that they are an underclass. Rich some of them maybe but they are still looked down on. Much of the support for Arab and Arab countries in the UK is of a 'Lawrence of Arabia' type of colonial attitude. They are admired but they aren't 'one of us'.

None of these attitudes is helpful or right. What surprised me was watching a series of programmes by Boris Johnson the Mayor of London on Islam. The shadow of the Crusades has never left the Middle East he says. It's left a huge scar on the Arab pysche as well as leaving huge distrust of non Muslims especially the Christian churches. I have to say after centuries of persecution I can sympathise with that.

But still the fixation and the myths, fables and wishful thinking will carry on about Israel.

 

[elder999]

And we give $1.7 BILLION dollars to Egypt during the same time period, several hundred million for military assistance.......the notion of a unique relationship with Israel is mostly smoke and mirrors. We do have a tendency to buy our friends, and keep them paid......but that's not restricted to Israel.

So, again, why the fixation on ISRAEL?

Actually, if one looks into the details of our "aid" to Israel, one does find a rather unique relationship-in fact, it's something that AIPAC brags about at length in their brochures.

In any case, it's hardly a "fixation." The facts that are of chief concern to me are detailed over two pages of this thread: Israel spies on us; Israel steals from us; Israel sells our technology to our enemies.

I haven't even gotten into the things they cooked up in Demona..

And lastly, what I detailed in this post....since you seem to be playing "catch up," sgt......:lfao:

 

[Tez3]

Well it's a case of the pot calling the kettle black really, as America spies on Israel ( it spies on everyone so Israel isn't singled out there http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katharine_Gun) and Jews get accused all the time of stealing things. Even stealing Christmas.


Israel hasn't stolen anything, it buys from Americans willing to betray their country for money. If I were American that would worry me far more than what the Israelis do. There's Americans who'll sell secrets to anyone though why the Swiss I'm not sure. You have officials who enable secrets to be taken. So who's worse, a spy for his country or a person who betrays his country for money?
http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/view/17156

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article3137695.ece

 

[elder999]

Israel hasn't stolen anything, it buys from Americans willing to betray their country for money.

Geez, I'm sorry Irene, but, semantics about "buying from American spies," aside, Israel steals from us.

A report in the March 15, 1992, New York Times revealed the pattern of illegal sales by Israel of U.S. weapon technology. The article revealed that Israel did this by either installing the U.S. components in an Israeli weapon system or disassembling the weapon to discover how it worked and then constructing their own, selling the secret technology to foreign countries, some being hostile to the U.S. interests.

Israel received Patriot missiles worth hundreds of millions of dollars from the United States, and instead of keeping the technology secret, sold the missiles with Patriot technology to other countries, including China, in clear violation of U.S. law. A State Department report accused Israel of engaging, for nearly ten years, in a systematic pattern of reselling cutting-edge U.S. military technology to Third World countries.

NBC reported fully documented evidence that the government of Israel had sold to the People's Republic of China the most closely guarded secrets of fighter aircraft technology for an estimated price of $5 billion. The Chinese regime plans to use the technology in producing more than 200 fighters beginning in the near future. Intelligence experts say the technology will put China's fighter aircraft on a par with the latest and most advanced U.S. fighters. One feature of the technology enables fighter aircraft to evade most radar

Intelligence experts are not sure how much China paid Israel for the technology. One expert said the fee is very significant, probably $5 billion and perhaps twice that much. The transfer began about 10 years ago when the Lavi, a project of enormous cost to the U.S. taxpayer, was finally scrapped.

In 1997, "Defense Week" reported (05/27/97) that, ...." the U.S. Office of Naval Intelligence reaffirmed that U.S.- derived technology from the cancelled [Israeli] Lavi fighter project is being used on China's new F-10 fighter." The following year, "Jane's Intelligence Review" reported (11/01/98) the transfer by Israel to China of the Phalcon airborne early warning and control system, the Python air-combat missile, and the F-10 fighter aircraft, containing "state-of-the-art U.S. electronics."

The U.S. State Department describes Israel as a "non-traditional adversary." They are on a list of countries that I cannot travel to without explicit authorization, briefings and debriefings from the Department of Energy and the Department of Defense-as well as anyone else within U.S. military and intelligence who wants in on it. They are on that list-which, BTW, Britain, France, and Japan, other nations that merely "spy" on us, are not-for a reason, and that reason is that they steal from us, and they sell our export controlled technology to other adversaries, in direct violation of agreements made for the transfer of that technology to Israel, which is a form of stealing, in that it's not theirs to sell.

 

[elder999]

Back on topic, though:

In West Bank, there's anger at Hamas as well as at Israel:

RAMALLAH , West Bank — Since the war in Gaza began two weeks ago, Rami Hamdan has oscillated between two emotions: sadness at the deaths of Palestinian civilians and anger, not only at Israel but also at its Palestinian foe, the militant Islamist group Hamas .

"Of course I am unhappy about the killings," said Hamdan, a 30-year-old building inspector in Ramallah , the de facto capital of the West Bank . "But Hamas is also responsible. They breached the truce. Israel is an aggressive entity at the end of the day, and Hamas knew this could happen."

Not many Palestinians will say that out loud in the West Bank these days. Most people voice outrage about Israel's offensive in the Hamas -controlled Gaza Strip , which by Friday had killed nearly 800 people, two-fifths of them women and children.

Below the surface, however, many in the West Bank are conflicted. A violent rift between Hamas and the secular Fatah party, which controls the West Bank , has left many unsure of their political future and fearful that their own territory could be engulfed in yet another round of battles with Israel .

and....

Israel tells Gazans to brace for war escalation
:

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip – Israel pounded rocket sites and tunnels Saturday while its planes dropped leaflets warning of an escalation, and Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas predicted a "waterfall of blood" unless all parties adhere to the U.N.'s call for a durable cease-fire.

Hamas fighters kept up attacks on southern Israel, launching 15 rockets. And with neither side ready to step down, the death toll in two weeks of fighting rose to more than 800 Palestinians, according to Palestinian medical officials, and 13 Israelis.

Flames and smoke rose over Gaza City amid heavy fighting.

 

[Tez3]

Honestly Elder, you say stealing from you like it's a bad thing!

I think you can only take the moral high ground if your country hasn't spied or stolen from any other country which it can't say it hasn't. If you set the precendent you can't be surprised when others do the same.
We are your oldest ally and you steal from us, go figure.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...for-its-oldest-friend--the-dollar-707550.html

 

[elder999]

Honestly Elder, you say stealing from you like it's a bad thing!

I think you can only take the moral high ground if your country hasn't spied or stolen from any other country which it can't say it hasn't. If you set the precendent you can't be surprised when others do the same.
We are your oldest ally and you steal from us, go figure.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...for-its-oldest-friend--the-dollar-707550.html

Nope, sorry-doesn't quite wash. In the first place, it is a bad thing when it runs counter to our national security interests. I mean, it's not as though they stole or illegally transferred a water-purification system-we're talking about export-protected weapons and military technology. Things that could wind up being a threat to the U.S.

In the second place, two wrongs don't make a right. Nowhere have I said that I approve of any of the actions of my own country in this regard. More importantly, our relationship with Israel is completely different from our relationship with you, and the nature of the "spying" (which you have excused in past posts, in any case, as expected in some way) in each instance is different. The real point is that Israel has entered into agreements with the U.S. and completely violated them for profit, in spite of our generosity towards them.

At least you've conceded the extent of Israel's outright betrayal of the U.S.'s trust and support.

 

[Tez3]

No I haven't actually, I just said you say stealing like its a bad thing and that you can't be surprised when people steal, didn't say it was the Israelis. I don't concede anything.
Spying is a fact of life, everyone is spying on everyone else, if they didn't a lot of us would be out of work lol.

Seriously though, yes the relationship between the UK and America is different, for all the help we received from you in the last world war you charged us dearly, hundreds of millions of pounds, we only finished paying you off a couple of years ago. America demanded and received the rights to several military bases in the UK which they still have, it demanded and received special trading concessions and it demanded and received the poodle like following of our politicians which made us follow you into the blood Iraqi wars then Afghanistan.

Don't think for one minute we don't realise you will dump us ( and Israel) the minute it becomes useful for you to do so.

You won't ever understand that the Americans with their money thinking they can buy anything they want in this world is what is really the problem, you send money to Israel, Egypt, Gaza, Argentina (to the Junta that killed so many of its own people and invaded the Falklands) Africa and practically everywhere and yet you can't understand why you aren't loved and respected. It's long been a joke in the the rest of the world, the Americans and money buying their way around the world.


You shouldn't confuse profit for survival though you know.

 

[elder999]

so.

You won't ever understand that the Americans with their money thinking they can buy anything they want in this world is what is really the problem, you send money to Israel, Egypt, Gaza, Argentina (to the Junta that killed so many of its own people and invaded the Falklands) Africa and practically everywhere and yet you can't understand why you aren't loved and respected. It's long been a joke in the the rest of the world, the Americans and money buying their way around the world.

Oddly enough, I do understand it-and I'm almost completely against it.......oddly enough, all that laughter at the joke doesn't stop any of those places from taking our money

You shouldn't confuse profit for survival though you know.

I'm not the one that's confused; if I'm confused about anything, it's how Israel's sale of our technology to China has anything to do with their survival, and could be for anything but profit.

 

[Tez3]

I suppose too it hasn't occured to you that nothing is what it seems and America may want Israel to have certain things that if they were to give them overtly it would cause ructions among other nations? If Americans are selling things so easily to the Israelis do you not wonder why? Would it not be easier to clamp down on foreign workers getting security passes etc to work in places the Americans want kept quiet?
If it was a real problem would the President not be shouting louder, wouldn't Israel be threatened with having aid cut off?
America doesn't want war with China, it wants good relations as does China with America but overtly supplying China with anything would cause huge problems both at home and away for both countries. what better than Israel as an intermediary? You may not think it's likely, you may not like it but it's naive not to consider it. The deviousness of politicians should never be under rated.

 

[elder999]

You may not think it's likely, you may not like it but it's naive not to consider it. The deviousness of politicians should never be under rated.

Oh, but I have considered it, and its likelihood-or the lack thereof. I'm speaking as a citizen in this regard, though-and one who only has knowledge of the public face of the facts at hand, and that one says that Israel is not our friend. It's entirely possible that China was sold a bill of goods, and none of those things work as they should, or that the U.S. has the hidden capability of making them non-functional through electronic means, though this also seems unlikely.

More to the point, I've also considered that the bombing of Gaza is just to use up U.S. supplied hardware, in order to have to buy more, and thus support the U.S. economy--an equally silly but no less likely scenario than U.S. complicity in the selling of our secrets.

 

[Tez3]

Oh, but I have considered it, and its likelihood-or the lack thereof. I'm speaking as a citizen in this regard, though-and one who only has knowledge of the public face of the facts at hand, and that one says that Israel is not our friend. It's entirely possible that China was sold a bill of goods, and none of those things work as they should, or that the U.S. has the hidden capability of making them non-functional through electronic means, though this also seems unlikely.

Er, that wasn't my thoughts at all. In fact it's very far fetched. I was suggesting that they were simply sold goods they needed and America sold them in a round about way, none of that weird stuff.

More to the point, I've also considered that the bombing of Gaza is just to use up U.S. supplied hardware, in order to have to buy more, and thus support the U.S. economy--an equally silly but no less likely scenario than U.S. complicity in the selling of our secrets

Thats an odd thought, it doesn't make any sense. Isreal got sick and tired of being the target of rockets killing it's people, no more no less than that.

Israel isn't Americas friend? Can you honestly say America is Israels friend? A friend who supports them because of humanity and because it believes it's right or a 'friend' who it supports so it can spy on the Arabs and provide a bulwark for the west against it's Islamic neighbours? A country it can use to do it's dirty work for it like bomb the Iranians nuclear sites. American never gives aid to countries it doesn't want something from, it's not a philanthropic enterprise, it's a case of lining up allies and having people beholden to you. You foster a culture of favours engendered by your money. American politicians regard Israel as being in their debt, a pawn and therefore can use when playing politics in the wide world.

 

[Tez3]

http://www.davidduke.com/

Nice to see such love for Israel.

 

[elder999]

Er, that wasn't my thoughts at all. In fact it's very far fetched. I was suggesting that they were simply sold goods they needed and America sold them in a round about way, none of that weird stuff.

It's all weird stuff. :lol: We've forbidden export of those items for really valid reasons-we wouldn't sell them to the Chinese in a roundabout way, any more than we would openly. At least, the notion is no more or less likely than:

More to the point, I've also considered that the bombing of Gaza is just to use up U.S. supplied hardware, in order to have to buy more, and thus support the U.S. economy

Thats an odd thought, it doesn't make any sense. Isreal got sick and tired of being the target of rockets killing it's people, no more no less than that.

None of it makes any sense. :lol: While I'll grant you that Israel probably did just get sick of being the target of rockets-and maybe wanted to do a little housecleaning before the new President can jerk their chain- it is going to make us some money. Do you have any idea of how much they're expending in armament, financially? Where do you think they'll get the replacements from?

http://www.davidduke.com/

Nice to see such love for Israel.

I'd invoke Godwin's law-maybe I'll make a corollary to it: Duke's half-pint Hitler wannabe maxim, or something.....:lfao:

(I'll bet you don't know who David Duke is, Irene, but I'll forgive this one in either case.....:lfao

 

[sgtmac_46]

Dude, you started it. I think your memory of yesterday is mistaken, or distorted on the matter...:lfao:....allow me:

If you read that statement as a response to my post.....even you will realize it's a dodge of the point I made.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Actually, if one looks into the details of our "aid" to Israel, one does find a rather unique relationship-in fact, it's something that AIPAC brags about at length in their brochures.

In any case, it's hardly a "fixation." The facts that are of chief concern to me are detailed over two pages of this thread: Israel spies on us; Israel steals from us; Israel sells our technology to our enemies.

I haven't even gotten into the things they cooked up in Demona..

And lastly, what I detailed in this post....since you seem to be playing "catch up," sgt......:lfao:

You seem to be more impressed with the cleverness of your posts than they were worthy of......especially since you've now resorted to evidence of 'bragging' as opposed to empirical evidence of how much money in aid is being spent, when confronted by Israel's neighbor, Egypt, getting a comparable amount from us.....but I guess if you add enough smilies it'll APPEAR as though you have an argument.

Let the STRAW GRASPING begin in the sad attempt to paint Israel as some unique evil in the world! :lfao:

 

[sgtmac_46]

Nope, sorry-doesn't quite wash. In the first place, it is a bad thing when it runs counter to our national security interests. I mean, it's not as though they stole or illegally transferred a water-purification system-we're talking about export-protected weapons and military technology. Things that could wind up being a threat to the U.S.

You might like the CLINTON ADMINISTRATION gave to the Chinese? :lfao: