Rank From Outside Your Art

[Doc]

Don't you carry your 10th holstered anywho?

40 CAL/KD Baby. Don't leave home without it!

 

[Dr John M La Tourrette]

Would I expect the instructor to recognize my previous experience and inform other students of my rank - for safety reasons, if nothing else? Certainly. Does that mean I should be eligible for promotion in a different art to something above the rank I hold in my core art? I really don't think so.

You might enjoy the following story.

Back in 1970-73 I taught Taekwon-do Chin Mu Kwan in the Southern Oregon area. One of my students (Bob) was a Green Belt (oh kup, 5th kyu) and joined the Army after graduating from college (SOC).

He was stationed in korea , so he went down to work out at the local base dojang (dojo/gym).

That night, after the Cha Yu Taeryon (free sparring) part of training his Korean Son Seng Nim spot promoted him to Cho Dan (1st Dan).

I found that amusing. Hell. He wasn't even very good.

And he did wear that black belt with pride.

Dr. John M. La Tourrette

 

[Dr John M La Tourrette]

Here in Louisiana, there are still a few companies who move houses. When the house is moved, it is still a house, but no matter where it lands, it gets a new foundation.

If you switch arts, you still "are what you are." But, you need to take the time to learn the new foundation. My system builds on itself. You may be a black belt, but part and parcel of being a black belt in my system is knowing the required curriculum.

Haha!

I loved your isomorphic metaphor.

Quick understanding at a deep level.

Dr. John M. La Tourrette

 

[tellner]

I'm not sure what you mean by isomorphism in this context. I'm only familiar with the term in mathematics. Could you please clarify?

Tnx,
Todd

 

[MJS]

A separate post to address the original topic of the thread.



If I had a 3rd degree black belt in Kenpo, then studied Tae Kwon Do for a while and the Tae Kwon Do instructor wanted to promote me to 4th degree, I would accept the rank.

It would not be a ‘Kenpo’ promotion. That rank would be a Tae Kwon Do rank, a valid 4th degree Tae Kwon Do rank, awarded by someone with the authority to do so. I believe it would be silly not to acknowledge my skills in style X just because I studied style Y first.

Anthony

Let me make sure I'm understanding this. You said, if you studied TKD for a while. How long is a while? 1 yr? 5 yrs? Would you take that 4th degree if you didn't know all of the material up to 4th?

I'm sorry, maybe I'm just misunderstanding you here, but unless you were to put a large amount of time in and knew all the material required to 4th dan in TKD, taking that rank, IMO, is worthless. As far as acknowledging your skill....your skill is in Kenpo, not TKD. Just because one can do Kenpo well, doesnt mean they'd perform the same in TKD.

 

[SenseiKeith]

Hello All,

I would have to agree with the point of view that if one trains in Kempo/Kenpo and then is offered a promotion in rank by TKD for a Kenpo/Kempo rank that would be silly. If the person in TKD was going to rank the person in Karate and the person had the skills and abilities of someone that is of said rank, well then thats another story.

With each technique you learn there are principles and concepts. A person can learn these concepts from many sources. For example I will take a technique from EPAK
Thundering Hammers and a technique from SKK combination number 3.

Both techniques are different but if you look at them closely you can see where they are similar. With this being said I feel that if the rank is a generic one and the person truly possesses the knowledge and have the ability to give a generic rank, whats the problem?

I wouldn't expect a TKD guy to give me a Kenpo/Kempo promotion or even a TKD promotion. I would expect to receive a generic rank in Karate.

Now from a Kempo/Kenpo person giving a new rank to a fellow Kempo/Kenpo person. Well if it was a generic Kempo/Kenpo ranking I would have to think about it.

In the end as some of you guys have stated it is about ability/skill and knowledge of the person. I would have to see it in order to believe it.

Just my 2cents,
Keith

 

[jks9199]

Something else that has occurred to me on this topic...

I recently read a copy of a letter endorsing someone's ranking in a particular system. (While it was posted on the internet, I'm not linking too it, in part because I don't want to dig through everything I did the first time...) It was written by a well-known, highly ranked martial artist whose skills are well-respected. It basically read "As you requested, I endorse your rank in <a different style than the writer's>..." The key thing to me was that it was clearly written in response to a request for external validation from this person. I'd look at that letter much differently as proof of someone's skill than one that read more like "I recently had the opportunity to train with you; it's clear to me that you are highly deserving of your umpty-ninth ranking." Yes, I know, both could have been requested by the subject, just written differently. The first one clearly was a case of seeking an outside confirmation; the second at least on its surface, is written solely to acknowledge the skill, without prompting.

To me, if I see that someone has clearly looked outside his style for endorsement of his rank, I have to wonder if there's a reason people from his own style haven't endorsed it. Maybe I'm just untrusting..

 

[Kacey]

I wouldn't expect a TKD guy to give me a Kenpo/Kempo promotion or even a TKD promotion. I would expect to receive a generic rank in Karate.

Am I understanding this correctly? Are you saying that, while performing Kenpo/Kempo, you would accept Karate rank from a TKD practitioner, even though Karate is a style of its own? Why? I am a TKD practitioner, and I can't imagine ranking anyone in Karate; I don't know Karate. I realize that Karate is a generic term used for martial arts by many people, but that doesn't change the fact that it is a style of its own.

Rank, IMHO, is specific to the style in which it is conferred; each style - and often each organization that teaches a particular style - has its own requirements and standards. Students who can demonstrate those requirements and standards at an acceptable level should be awarded the rank commensurate with their skills - in the art in which they demonstrated them. No other form of rank signifies.

If your personal integrity allows you to accept rank presented in any other fashion, that is between you and your instructor (and students, if you have any); mine does not allow me to accept rank I have not earned. Now, there may be people - such as the example given in this post in another thread - who demonstrate that they have met the requirements and standards differently, but such people still have, IMHO, met the requirements.

Belts and certificates are easy to come by - especially in the computer age - knowing that you have earned what you have is worth much more, and is much harder to achieve - but it's worth it.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Something else that has occurred to me on this topic...

I recently read a copy of a letter endorsing someone's ranking in a particular system. (While it was posted on the internet, I'm not linking too it, in part because I don't want to dig through everything I did the first time...) It was written by a well-known, highly ranked martial artist whose skills are well-respected. It basically read "As you requested, I endorse your rank in <a different style than the writer's>..." The key thing to me was that it was clearly written in response to a request for external validation from this person. I'd look at that letter much differently as proof of someone's skill than one that read more like "I recently had the opportunity to train with you; it's clear to me that you are highly deserving of your umpty-ninth ranking." Yes, I know, both could have been requested by the subject, just written differently. The first one clearly was a case of seeking an outside confirmation; the second at least on its surface, is written solely to acknowledge the skill, without prompting.

To me, if I see that someone has clearly looked outside his style for endorsement of his rank, I have to wonder if there's a reason people from his own style haven't endorsed it. Maybe I'm just untrusting..

This is how I read it as well and like you we are from the real world where skepticism is always good!

(matter of fact I think I know exactly the situation that you just described)

 

[arnisador]

Rank, IMHO, is specific to the style in which it is conferred; each style - and often each organization that teaches a particular style - has its own requirements and standards. Students who can demonstrate those requirements and standards at an acceptable level should be awarded the rank commensurate with their skills - in the art in which they demonstrated them. No other form of rank signifies.

Things are a little different for some arts. Different styles of FMA are often considered to be mostly just different interpretations of the same basic moves. There usually aren't anyos (kata), nor are techniques within a given art meant to be interpreted in the precise, just-so way that, say, Karate techniques often are. I can differentiate the four major styles of Okinawan Karate from one another easily; within a few moves I can tell you if a person is doing Isshin, Goju, Shorin, or Uechi. I can't do that with most FMAs. I can pick up some general differences in emphasis, but can't usually tell you what the style is. (There are exceptions.) Indeed, while in many cultures forming a new art could be considered disrespectful--Tatsuo Shimabuku famously sought permission and recognition from other Karate masters before starting Isshin-ryu--in the FMAs it's traditionally been expected that if you're any good you'll start your own school teaching your own approach, under your own system's name. The point is, from when I studied Karate I believe it'd be absurd to have a Karateka from one system rank someone in another in almost all cases. (However, there is a precedent for recognizing that someone in another system is at a senior level, qualified to be addressed as a GM or equivalent. Indeed, what the ZNKR does for iaido, with a standardized set of techniques done by people in the different styles who then do their own material in addition, is a form of this, and similarly for kyudo, etc.) However, for many FMAs I would find nothing as fundamentally inappropriate about such a thing, though it's still uncommon and I'd still have concerns about the fact that these arts do have their own curricula and hence you can't truly rank that person in some sense. But again, in the FMA there's always been less of an emphasis on the specific techniques and more on how one moves than in other arts I've studied.

So, I largely agree with you, but I want to point out that different types of arts have different approaches and standards, and it's much less surprising in some circumstances than in others.

 

[Kacey]

I'm certainly not disputing that things are different in different arts - my comments were more in regard to SenseiKeith's comment that he would accept generic Karate rank from a TKD practitioner; within variations of an art it would depend on the level of similarity and how the ranking was determined within the art.

 

[Dr John M La Tourrette]

I'm not sure what you mean by isomorphism in this context. I'm only familiar with the term in mathematics. Could you please clarify?Tnx,Todd

I've already replied privately to Todd and gave him the definition used by those in my field.

What I am curious about is that he is the first one on either kenpotalk or martialtalk to ask for a definition of that word.

My point being, is just maybe, much of the condemning I read is about people NOT understanding what the person they are judging is really talking about because neither of them take the time to clarity definitions, values, criteria, etc?

Thank you Todd.

Dr. John M. La Tourrette

 

[Michael Billings]

Remembering the topic is rank from OUTSIDE your art, I would think that accepting that rank is an issue between you and your teacher. I could be Kenpo specific about it, but that really gets into the politics of the rank seekers and inflated red on belts. Keeping out of ones own art/system, if you are training with your instructors knowledge and permission, there is no reason not to display earned rank in the appropriate context, e.g. when attending a class or event.

The problem of course, is competition, sandbagging, egos, etc., which should receive quick correction if allowed to happen at all.

When accepting a black belt from another system, when you are not training in that system, could just be recognition for your attainment of proficiency in whatever your mother art is. Seen it done lots. Do not think it is something I would want or ever accept, but hey, whatever floats your boat. It is what it is, recognition. Lots of other arts outside kenpo have guys heading it with multiple black belts and recognitions from lots of other arts. I always wondered about it, was it just marketing? Nope, it is part of the culture of their arts, Hapkidoist, ranked in Tae Kwon Do, Ju-Jitsu, Aikido, and Escrima. I look for their core art and go from there and try not to judge them. It is part of their system's culture to hang bunches of certificates and pictures on the wall, me, I like windows instead.

-Michael

 

[Doc]

A simple reminder, that when Parker chose to proliferate his art through a commercial business, he accepted the rank of black belts who came to his new IKKA. In fact, he even issued diplomas to most, and many are the beneficiaries of that policy, in that they've been promoted by some of those same people.

But Parker in his Kenpo Business maintained a policy that students are the responsibility of their teachers, and your skill and knowledge is their responsibility and not his. To that end Parker never flunked anyone in a test, and always asserted people will always know who is good, an who isn't no matter what the rank.

 

[Danjo]

A simple reminder, that when Parker chose to proliferate his art through a commercial business, he accepted the rank of black belts who came to his new IKKA. In fact, he even issued diplomas to most, and many are the beneficiaries of that policy, in that they've been promoted by some of those same people.

But Parker in his Kenpo Business maintained a policy that students are the responsibility of their teachers, and your skill and knowledge is their responsibility and not his. To that end Parker never flunked anyone in a test, and always asserted people will always know who is good, an who isn't no matter what the rank.

Doc,

I notice your careful wording such as "through a commercial business" and "in his Kenpo business" and "To that end" to qualify your statement.

I take it that this is not an accident?

 

[Kacey]

I've already replied privately to Todd and gave him the definition used by those in my field.

What I am curious about is that he is the first one on either kenpotalk or martialtalk to ask for a definition of that word.

My point being, is just maybe, much of the condemning I read is about people NOT understanding what the person they are judging is really talking about because neither of them take the time to clarity definitions, values, criteria, etc?

Thank you Todd.

Dr. John M. La Tourrette

And then... there are those of us who took chemistry, and didn't need to ask. Convergence, in this context, is an interesting theory, and I don't dispute that many arts have similar features. The difference, as they say, is in the details. Similarities notwithstanding, I have no interest in receiving rank from arts I have not trained in, no matter how similar they may be to one I have trained in. Others have different preferences; if accepting rank from similar but different organizations is something that you're offered, and it works for you, that's your choice - but my personal interpretation of integrity precludes accepting such offers.

 

[Doc]

Doc,

I notice your careful wording such as "through a commercial business" and "in his Kenpo business" and "To that end" to qualify your statement.

I take it that this is not an accident?

Well sir, you know I'm very deliberate in my wording. Rank was never an issue in the original Kenpo-Karate. Those that stayed and could handle the training, made black in about a year give or take a month or two. After that everyone just trained.

When Parker moved to Chinese Kenpo the rank issue was still never much of a thought either, with everyone divided into either students or teachers as the Chinese culture dictated.

Than the business of the art had to have a hierarchy, and a pecking order as the business grew and more people assumed more rank, and began to wear the new rank designation stripes.

Parker personally could care less and never wore stripes in all of his previous training. Ultimately he placed and first wore stripes at the rank of seventh, and this was prior to the "bar." He had seven stripes in a row on his belt, and he personally thought it was gaudy, but everyone else loved them and flaunted their stripes proudly. As the Big Kahuna, the CEO, the Chairman of the Board, he had to wear his as well. This is also why he embraced Tom Kelly's suggestion of the "bar," to help mitigate the ostentatious nature of the accouterment. That idea was ultimately executed incorrectly. The 5th designation was to be a compilation of the stripes into a bar, and should have been a two and half inch bar, (5X 2 1/2) instead of a five inch brick. But once it was done it became the standard and Parker let it stand. Under the proper guideline, it would have been less of an ornament and 10th degree would have been a couple of 2 1/2 inch bars. Not bad.

I never wore the stripes either until it became a general Parker mandate in the IKKA, and even then I held out for quite a while, not wearing any stripes until around 1980, and wore them in Infinite Insights because I was in the books. When Parker passed away, I ultimately went back to the "old school" method I had grown up with and removed the stripes, and banned them for my lineage. They are a product and represent his commercial system, which I was never really a part of so .....

Anyway I think we would have all been a lot better off if everyone had to demonstrate their rank on the floor, instead of on their belt. I think everyone knows someone with a lot of red on their belt they consider pretty incompetent whose rank was sanctioned by Parker. Then there are others much lower in rank who have much respect. Than there are guys in the business who need to wear them. I have no problem with that either. Bottom line, most know who the real guys are, and they didn't draw their clues from the belts, but the man standing in front of them.

Parker gave out and sanctioned a lot of rank, some as high as 9th. But, if someone needs Parker's name on a diploma for credibility, than they aren't very good anyway.