Rank From Outside Your Art

[Rich Parsons]

What are your thoughts on getting rank from someone outside of your main art? In other words, here is a hypothetical situation. Lets say you're ranked a 5th in Parker Kenpo. Something happens to your instructor, you leave the org. ,etc. Next time someone sees you, you're walking around with a 6th on your waist. When questioned, you state that you got your rank from someone outside of the art of Kenpo altogether or you received it from a different branch of Kenpo, ie: Tracy.

Do you think that this is right? Should you accept rank from someone outside your group? Should you have sought out another teacher from your original art?

Let the discussion begin!

Mike

I am not a practitioner of Ken/mpo. But I know some who do.

While I agree all rank should be based upon skill sets and knowledge and teaching capabilities and such, the issue is rank in System A given by a person from System B.

There is recognition of skill sets done by peers, and this is a different topic.

This issue is about a person in Art A going to someone in Art B and getting a title or Rank. I will go into further discussion on this. If Art A and Art B are all Parker Kenpo then I argue that it is not Art A and Art B, but Art A and Art A' and possible Art or System A'' and so forth. But for someone in th FMA's to go to a Kenpo event and come back with rank and titles for their FMA system is not a good thing. But is the people of System B wish to rank them in System B, and the rank is in System B and not in System A then this a different arguement about transferring rank and skill to other arts.

I personally believe that someone in a similar art can recognize a person. They could even grant rank in their own system.

The big issues come when their is a vacuum at the top then what do people do. Of course there are lots of ways to handle this and all have postive and negative issues around them. But it should be either handled internally, or with peers or with people from a sister art, and not from something totally different.

But that is my opinion and it means very little on the street and else where.

 

[Perpetual White Belt]

I personally believe that someone in a similar art can recognize a person. They could even grant rank in their own system.

I was gonna say the same but you beat me to it.

 

[MJS]

Wow, lots of great answers. For myself, I view it like this. If you were in the Tatum org, then left and went to Palanzo and he promoted you another degree, I see nothing wrong with that, as its still Parker Kenpo. If a TKD inst. offered to promote you, I'd have to flat out refuse it due to the fact that he probably knows nothing about Kenpo. If you went to a Tracy school, IMO, I'd still say that it would be wrong, due to the fact that while there're similarities, its not Parker Kenpo.

 

[Karatedrifter7]

I got ahold of a Tracy Kenpo manual. My teacher has to be affiliated with Tracy, to some degree, because he was honored this year at the gathering of Eagles. But I looked at a manual for the various belts and the moves from the Tracy manual are pretty different from ours. So it doesnt make a great study guide for me.
So I'll take this question a step further. Is there a vast degree of difference between each Tracy school as to what's taught, at what level? Our is my class kind of off the Tracy curriculum since the order is so different from the official manual? Our system is called "Chuan Fa America" so that may have something to do with it.

 

[Gentle Fist]

If this question was asked about an art like "Judo" it would not be such a problem. Judo has a official set of throws and the only difference in the different associations is the order that they follow. A throw is a throw so to speak.

Kenpo is all over the place with it's number of moves and the ridiculous number of forms and one step self defense techs makes it close to impossible to crossover overnight. I would be weary of anyone (Dan level) who was EPAK one year and Shaolin the next and claimed a parallel move.

 

[Perpetual White Belt]

If this question was asked about an art like "Judo" it would not be such a problem. Judo has a official set of throws and the only difference in the different associations is the order that they follow.

The same could also be said of the different Karate styles. Most of them have the same kata with only minor technical differences for the most part, but the order that the kata are taught is different.

 

[arnisador]

Well, I think the difference is bigger there--look at the stance differences and punching styles between Isshin, then Goju, then Uechi. I see bigger differences between even just Okinawan styles of Karate than between Judo or even ost FMA schools.

 

[KenpoDave]

I got ahold of a Tracy Kenpo manual. My teacher has to be affiliated with Tracy, to some degree, because he was honored this year at the gathering of Eagles. But I looked at a manual for the various belts and the moves from the Tracy manual are pretty different from ours. So it doesnt make a great study guide for me.
So I'll take this question a step further. Is there a vast degree of difference between each Tracy school as to what's taught, at what level? Our is my class kind of off the Tracy curriculum since the order is so different from the official manual? Our system is called "Chuan Fa America" so that may have something to do with it.

If your teacher was inducted into the Hall of Fame, that simply means he was nominated and accepted. Many who are not affiliated with Tracy's were inducted.

That said, if the techniques are the same, but in different order, your teacher may teach an earlier version of the current Tracy's curriculum.

Sort of a side topic to this one, really. People in the same organization teaching different material, yet accepting and bestowing rank as one.

I don't have a problem with it. All trees have roots and branches. Even apples that fall off that still come from the same tree.

 

[Perpetual White Belt]

Well, I think the difference is bigger there--look at the stance differences and punching styles between Isshin, then Goju, then Uechi. I see bigger differences between even just Okinawan styles of Karate than between Judo or even ost FMA schools.

True, but unless you're planning to switch from taking 1 style to taking 3 styles at one time, then it shouldn't be too difficult to make those adjustments in a relativly short time. The Okinawa Kenpo school I went to taught Shotokan up until the previous year and from my understanding all of the students transitioned over in that year timespan.

 

[Karatedrifter7]

If your teacher was inducted into the Hall of Fame, that simply means he was nominated and accepted. Many who are not affiliated with Tracy's were inducted.

That said, if the techniques are the same, but in different order, your teacher may teach an earlier version of the current Tracy's curriculum.

Sort of a side topic to this one, really. People in the same organization teaching different material, yet accepting and bestowing rank as one.

I don't have a problem with it. All trees have roots and branches. Even apples that fall off that still come from the same tree.

Allright thanks for clearing that up.

Dave M

 

[Karatedrifter7]

If your teacher was inducted into the Hall of Fame, that simply means he was nominated and accepted. Many who are not affiliated with Tracy's were inducted.

That said, if the techniques are the same, but in different order, your teacher may teach an earlier version of the current Tracy's curriculum.

Sort of a side topic to this one, really. People in the same organization teaching different material, yet accepting and bestowing rank as one.

I don't have a problem with it. All trees have roots and branches. Even apples that fall off that still come from the same tree.

But something else comes to mind. Suppose I was to move into your town with a Green Belt from my system? Where would you start someone like me? Would I begin at White, and you see how fast I advance? I think you are right this is an older version of Tracy's Kenpo.

 

[Blindside]

But something else comes to mind. Suppose I was to move into your town with a Green Belt from my system? Where would you start someone like me? Would I begin at White, and you see how fast I advance? I think you are right this is an older version of Tracy's Kenpo.

At our school you would have two options; start over with a white, or continue to wear your green belt but you would continue to wear your old uniform or simply a plain one. You could wear our uniform when you equalled your old rank.

You would advance as fast as you could advance, which if the basic material is already there, is going to be very rapid. But we need to know how well you know the material, and how we teach it, so we would not simply grant someone a green.

Lamont

 

[Karatedrifter7]

Got ya.

 

[Wanderer]

Originally posted by Kacey
Now, if I were to start a new art and the instructor said "You're a black belt, I want you to wear a black belt so that the other students understand you're not a beginner", given the option, I'd turn it down.

Originally posted by Big Don
Shouldn't rank be a recognition of your skills and abilities, not just an ego thing?

Big Don, this is exactly why I disagree with Kacey, and would be suspicious of any school that does not acknowledge my previous experience, albeit in a different style.

A white belt is a beginner. A white belt does not know how to strike effectively, evade effectively, attack along lines that the opponent cannot perceive, etc. While there is difference between styles, many skills and principles carry through.
I believe the only accurate assessment is to acknowledge previous rank, while recognizing that it is of a different style.

Also, it may be a rank of a different style, but it is a valid rank, and to wear any other is to pretend to be something that you are not. I can just imagine a 2nd degree black belt in Tang Soo Do trying to compete as a white belt in a Tae Kwon Do tournament because he just recently started Tae Kwon Do.


Anthony

 

[Wanderer]

A separate post to address the original topic of the thread.

Originally posted by MJS
Wow, lots of great answers. For myself, I view it like this. If you were in the Tatum org, then left and went to Palanzo and he promoted you another degree, I see nothing wrong with that, as its still Parker Kenpo. If a TKD inst. offered to promote you, I'd have to flat out refuse it due to the fact that he probably knows nothing about Kenpo.

If I had a 3rd degree black belt in Kenpo, then studied Tae Kwon Do for a while and the Tae Kwon Do instructor wanted to promote me to 4th degree, I would accept the rank.

It would not be a ‘Kenpo’ promotion. That rank would be a Tae Kwon Do rank, a valid 4th degree Tae Kwon Do rank, awarded by someone with the authority to do so. I believe it would be silly not to acknowledge my skills in style X just because I studied style Y first.

Anthony

 

[Kacey]

Big Don, this is exactly why I disagree with Kacey, and would be suspicious of any school that does not acknowledge my previous experience, albeit in a different style.

A white belt is a beginner. A white belt does not know how to strike effectively, evade effectively, attack along lines that the opponent cannot perceive, etc. While there is difference between styles, many skills and principles carry through.
I believe the only accurate assessment is to acknowledge previous rank, while recognizing that it is of a different style.

Also, it may be a rank of a different style, but it is a valid rank, and to wear any other is to pretend to be something that you are not. I can just imagine a 2nd degree black belt in Tang Soo Do trying to compete as a white belt in a Tae Kwon Do tournament because he just recently started Tae Kwon Do.


Anthony

Would I expect the instructor to recognize my previous experience and inform other students of my rank - for safety reasons, if nothing else? Certainly. Does that mean I should be eligible for promotion in a different art to something above the rank I hold in my core art? I really don't think so.

I've spent 20+ years getting to my current rank (IV Dan) and while I could reasonably expect that I might progress more quickly in a different - especially related - art, the depth and breadth of knowledge that I have in TKD would take a significant about of time to duplicate in another style. Perhaps not as long as it did in TKD, because, as you said, some of the principles would be the same - but the devil's in the details, and those would be different. Promotion, to me, implies a mastery of techniques at a certain level - and while parallel experience may speed mastery, it does not equal mastery.

Likewise, I would have no problem progressing more quickly in a different art - just how quickly would depend on how similar the arts are. In some ways greater similarity would be an advantage; in other ways, it would be a disadvantage, because the similar details would be hard to differentiate.

Competition is yet another issue and would have to be dealt with appropriately and individually - but just as it would be unreasonable for a II Dan in TSD to compete as a white belt in TKD, it would be unreasonable for a II Dan in TSD to compete as a II Dan in TKD without a significant amount of experience in the differences in rules and techniques. As I said, not as long as if the person had no experience in MA - but again, the devil is in the details.

 

[Ray]

Big Don, this is exactly why I disagree with Kacey, and would be suspicious of any school that does not acknowledge my previous experience, albeit in a different style.

Having moved around, whenever I go to a different school, if the instructor asks about my experience I tell him. If he says wear my current rank, I'm okay with it; if he says wear a white belt, I'm okay with that, too.

If I go somewhere and they don't ask about my rank, then I'll just wear a white belt. They usually notice that I'm not an absolute beginner and then ask - then we decide, at their discretion, what belt I'll wear. I'm not usually at a place to show them what I know, I'm usually there to learn things I don't know.

One place I was going to, just for "fight night," the instructor told me to wear a white belt. People noticed the "white belt" and asked how come I was "so good." He told them I was a kenpo man, the person asking the question then commented something to the effect of kenpo must be a superior art if that's how a kenpo white belt fights. The instructor then told me to wear my black belt at his place.

 

[KenpoDave]

But something else comes to mind. Suppose I was to move into your town with a Green Belt from my system? Where would you start someone like me? Would I begin at White, and you see how fast I advance? I think you are right this is an older version of Tracy's Kenpo.

If you wanted to learn my system, yes, you would start at the beginning and advance as rapidly as applicable. However, the fact of your previous experience would not be a secret to anyone.

There are people I have run across who will obtain an advanced degree in a style, then change styles and wear a lower belt simply because they do "better" in tournaments. Sad.

Here in Louisiana, there are still a few companies who move houses. When the house is moved, it is still a house, but no matter where it lands, it gets a new foundation.

If you switch arts, you still "are what you are." But, you need to take the time to learn the new foundation. My system builds on itself. You may be a black belt, but part and parcel of being a black belt in my system is knowing the required curriculum.

 

[Doc]

Someone once asked me if I was a 10th degree. I said, "No, but I did stay in a Holiday Inn last night."

Doesn't it really matter? You take any organization, profession, activity, etc. They are not all created equal. Take the lofty position of Medical Doctor. These people go through many hours of training, education, study, examination, and certifications to wear the title. Some are good, some are bad, and you should always seek a second opinion.

Don't call me grandmaster, cause I like "your majesty" better. Check please!

Filed under the heading, "Who cares?" unless you're in business and you're afraid the jerks will hurt your bottom line. Personally, all the 10ths make me look good wearing no stripes.

 

[IWishToLearn]

Don't you carry your 10th holstered anywho?