Racist Cop or Combative Professor?

[Steve]

Because other officers present, of various races, AND different agencies, have backed Crowley's account of the events, and stated that his actions were justified by the situation. They were there....you weren't.....nor was the President.

Now you can fall back on the 'Cops lie for each other' argument, but that would just reveal the core of a bias in your argument if you did so.

sgtmac, once again you've rebutted an argument I haven't made. Doesn't that get old? It's like you're continuously debating a fictitious, liberal icon in your head.

I'm basing my opinions on what I've read and heard. If, because we weren't there, we can't profer our own opinions, you might want to take your own advice and cut Gates some slack. You weren't there, either.

Once again, had Crowley said (regardless of whatever buffoonery Gates may or may not have been engaging in), "Mr. Gates, thanks for your time and I apologize for any confusion. Have a nice day," and then left, there would be no story. Instead, he invited Mr. Gates outside where he could arrest him. At the very least, as I've said, Crowley should be held responsible for his contribution to the situation. Had he politely left, there would be no arrest and no story.

Edit: Just to add, nothing I've said here conflicts with ANYTHING you've said. At all.

 

[yorkshirelad]

The only question I have is why you are prepared to let Crowley skate on his behavior while pursuing your points against Gates with the tenacity of a pitbull? To my knowledge, no one is suggesting Gates acted well or rationally. Omar empathized with him, but that's about it. Yet, you continue to turn every response into a race related, anti-Gates response, even when asked about Crowley's behavior. You don't see the double standard?

Gates and Obama turned this into a racial deal, not me. Did you see the interview Gates gave to one of the networks after this debarcle. He said something on the lines of "This is a consideration for all BLACK men". Then Obama played the race card at the healthcare press conference. These two players started all the racial BS.

Crowley went to the residence as a cop to perform his duty. Gates' response was uncalled for and totally purile. Crowley never insulted him or followed him, yet Gates insulted Crowley and followed him with a childish diatribe. Btw the "yo Momma" quote would've been embarassing for a ten year old school boy. Gates arrest was legal.

You know as well as I do, that if we went back say one year and this was a white professor friend of George Bush, most who are decrying Crowley, would be screaming "Damn Bush and his ******* friends". Olberman would be revelling in it as would Bill Maher, the NYT would have it all over the front page and some of you here would be sayingf the same thing.

I don't care if Gates is black, white or pink with prurple polka dots, he behaved like an *******.

I hope Crowley goes to the whithouse, eats the canapes, drinks some fine cabernet and then tell Gates to go forth and multiply.

 

[sgtmac_46]

sgtmac, once again you've rebutted an argument I haven't made. Doesn't that get old? It's like you're continuously debating a fictitious, liberal icon in your head.

Never said anything about liberals.....I asked you a question about why some people have suddenly decided that a racists version of events is more believable than that of numerous other people present.....I won't claim that's your position, but it does seem to be many folks.

I'm basing my opinions on what I've read and heard. If, because we weren't there, we can't profer our own opinions, you might want to take your own advice and cut Gates some slack. You weren't there, either.

I don't have to cute Gates any slack.......he's an obvious racist and deserves to be condemned as one.......there's no place in the 21st Century for his kind of rhetoric from a man of ANY race!

Once again, had Crowley said (regardless of whatever buffoonery Gates may or may not have been engaging in), "Mr. Gates, thanks for your time and I apologize for any confusion. Have a nice day," and then left, there would be no story. Instead, he invited Mr. Gates outside where he could arrest him. At the very least, as I've said, Crowley should be held responsible for his contribution to the situation. Had he politely left, there would be no arrest and no story.

So you claim, from your arm chair........but what you know about the incident is only what you've heard, most of it OBVIOUSLY heavily biased toward Skippy Gates' very DUBIOUS version of events, and dismissive of the version supplied not only by Crowley, but other officers of various races on scene, as well as the original caller.




As for George W. Bush, say what you will about the man.........he never at his worst moment displayed the kind of personal arrogance that Obama did in this one off-teleprompter speech.......and it would only be an applicable analogy if Bush was close friends with David Duke.

 

[yorkshirelad]

Well, I never said it was safe, just safer than being a minority. Most of the victims of the gangs and other criminals around here are other gang members or bystanders living in the area. I've been through Crenshaw, Watts/Compton, whatever the ******** around USC is called, and similar. Never had a problem. I was more terrified to go to a movie theatre in Baltimore.

Maybe you and I should get together for Frappacinos, start a book club and invite all the nice gangbangers. We could even start a knitting circle....oh what fun.

 

[sgtmac_46]

As Obama has stated this should be a teachable moment.......unfortunately for Obama the lesson is that the kind of OVERT RACIST rhetoric and beliefs held and espoused by men like Skippy Gates should not be tolerated or excused from anyone, regardless of race. The idea that we need to give a wink and nod to racist views held by members of certain races because we think, based on some errant views of historical ills that they are ENTITLED to those racist views, is ASININE IN THE EXTREME!

The Hutus used as the notion that they were entitled to their views based on historical wrongs to SLAUGHTER NEARLY ONE MILLION TUTSI'S in the Rwandan Genocide..........if the logic that Skippy Gates and his ilk are ENTITLED to their hatred because of acts committed decades and even centuries ago, then the Hutus were perfectly justifed as well........and that's a dangerous argument.

That is why the issues of this incident go FAR BEYOND whether or not an individual police officer lost his momentary cool and allowed himself to be goaded in to an arrest that many folks who watch too many reruns of Law and Order feel they wouldn't have made in their fantasy world version of police work.........because at it's WORST on Crowley's part, what you have is an officer who let an irate idiot get the better of his momentary judgment.......there is ZERO evidence of any kind of racial bias, and every reason to believe that had the incident been EXACTLY the same, but involving an irate WHITE guy, he would have done EXACTLY the same thing.........the issue of Skippy Gates and Barack Obama's bias, however, are FAR FAR more troubling.

 

[Empty Hands]

i'll take the side that DOESN'T have as it's sole witness an avowed racist.

"in 1959 we were watching Mike Wallace's documentary called "The Hate that Hate Produced." It was about the Nation of Islam and I couldn't believe --I mean, Malcolm X was talking about the white man was the devil and standing up in white people's faces and telling them off. It was great."

THIS is what makes him an avowed racist to you? He enjoyed Malcolm X standing up to the white man in 19****ing59? Why don't you think back for, oh, about 6 nanoseconds what life was like for your average black person in 1959, particularly in the South. Then ask yourself why it's a bad thing that Malcolm X stood up to that, in any way he chose.

This is absolutely shameless and disgusting behavior on your part.

 

[yorkshirelad]

There it is. That's the crux of it right there. This isn't a discussion with you. In your mind, it's sparring. It's like the lightbulb went off. You aren't discussing things. You're reading with the intent to rebut. It's a mock battle. Maybe that's why I've been beating my head against the wall. Here I thought we were trying to explain our points of view and perhaps come to some kind of understanding, and all the while you've been reading the posts looking only for a means to refute the points and further your own agenda.

Well you must admit Steve this does resemble a game. I mean nothing you say to me is gonna persuade me that your position IN THIS CASE is correct. I get the impression that the feeling is mutual.

There have been threads where my position has changed somewhat, during and after the debate and I really do enjoy the joust.

I got into this thread rather late, because it went unnoticed. I believe that it should be in the Political DEBATE thread. I really thought that you guys were enjoying this also, why on earth would we be here otherwise. Itr's a beutiful day here in HB and the beach is only 10 blocks away, but I choose to be here, because I enjoy it. I also happen to believe that in this instance my position is valid, everything has been said partaining to the case.

Btw, my agenda at this time is to enjoy myself. My agenda (as you call it) has been staed. I'm very forthright and have no sinister motives to hypnotize you into conforming to the mind of Dom. Trust me, one of me is more than enough. That's why my wife and I have both decided never to have children......right, let's get back to it shall we, come on touch gloves.

 

[sgtmac_46]

"in 1959 we were watching Mike Wallace's documentary called "The Hate that Hate Produced." It was about the Nation of Islam and I couldn't believe --I mean, Malcolm X was talking about the white man was the devil and standing up in white people's faces and telling them off. It was great."

THIS is what makes him an avowed racist to you? He enjoyed Malcolm X standing up to the white man in 19****ing59? Why don't you think back for, oh, about 6 nanoseconds what life was like for your average black person in 1959, particularly in the South. Then ask yourself why it's a bad thing that Malcolm X stood up to that, in any way he chose.

This is absolutely shameless and disgusting behavior on your part.

No, the fact that he considered the white man the devil and still does makes him a racist.......are you really going to make this debate about whether Skippy Gates harbors racist views? GO AHEAD! I'll take that argument all day long!


But before we begin lets examine the core of your argument........are you going to argue that Skip Gates isn't racist because.......

1) There is no evidence of racist views.
2) That black folks CAN'T be racist no matter how racist their views

Just so we know where you stand.

 

[yorkshirelad]

Gates-gate (ha!) is like a reactionary hot fudge sundae with crack and hookers sprinkled on top. It's completely irresistible. In one fell swoop, a reactionary can target:

1) Defending the police.
2) Criticizing a liberal.
3) Criticizing a black man, and get to call him the "real racist" to boot.
4) Criticizing an "elite Harvard intellectual".
5) Criticize the President, combining elements of 2-4 irrespective of all actual evidence and reason, and get to decide it makes him incompetent too.

All those political resentments and flash points get combined in one tasty package. If only welfare cheats and the French could be worked in, the perfect storm of wingnuttery would be complete. Thus, a relatively minor affair gets blown into a massive Event that has consumed the news cycle for going on two weeks now.

I must admit, I do the first five rather well, but I'm still trying to figure out the french angle....Can some of you Canadians help me out?

 

[Empty Hands]

No, the fact that he considered the white man the devil and still does makes him a racist

Post even the SLIGHTEST evidence that is the case. Your quote won't cut it! He said it was "great" that Malcolm X called the white man the devil and got in his face in 1959. I think it was great too. That doesn't mean I believe the white man is the devil. JIM CROW WAS THE LAW OF THE LAND IN 1959 IN THE SOUTH! Until you acknowledge THAT in light of your quote, you are engaging in the most disingenuous, dishonest, and outright VILE character assassination! Seriously! What you are saying is "Gates thought it was great someone stood up to the Jim Crow regime? Called them names? RACIST!"

Disgusting.

.......are you really going to make this debate about whether Skippy Gates harbors racist views? GO AHEAD! I'll take that argument all day long!

Why don't you post some actual evidence? Rely on something other than a vast reservoir of racial resentment and your own assumptions.

 

[sgtmac_46]

I must admit, I do the first five rather well, but I'm still trying to figure out the french angle....Can some of you Canadians help me out?

He's just pulling out every 'Fox News Watching/France Hating' cliched 'conservative' stereotype he can fit in one post.......nothing new.

 

[Archangel M]

Thus, a relatively minor affair gets blown into a massive Event that has consumed the news cycle for going on two weeks now.

Bwahaha!! Yeah, THOSE are the reasons this has been in the news so long. Its not the medias fault for making an arrest for a minor law violation into NATIONAL news? Its NOT the fault of the President of the United States opening hit trap on the matter in front of the press?

NO..its a vast right wing conspiracy thats the cause of all this.

Please.

 

[jks9199]

LOL... so that he could arrest him. Come on...

So now you're accusing him of entrapment?

Look, it seems you've already decided that Sgt. Crowley was out of control, looking to arrest Professor Gates for whatever reason, maybe just because he dared to question the sergeant. You're going to interpret everything as being a means for Sergeant Crowley to further that.

I've said several times that, given the circumstances, the arrest may not have been the wisest or best choice. That doesn't matter, because it was the choice that Sergeant Crowley made in the moment. He was there, I wasn't. I can think of arrests I've made that, in hindsight, might have been better satisfied with some other action. Oh, well. Just like Sergeant Crowley, I had legal authority and justification for the arrest. I can think of other times when I should've or could've arrested, and didn't.

Can you possibly accept that maybe, just maybe, Sergeant Crowley was within his authority, and took reasonable steps to avoid the arrest, then took Dr. Gates into custody only when he felt that it was the best option available in light of the totality of the circumstances? That it wasn't just a knee jerk, out of control response to a situation where someone challenged his authority?

 

[sgtmac_46]

Post even the SLIGHTEST evidence that is the case. Your quote won't cut it! He said it was "great" that Malcolm X called the white man the devil and got in his face in 1959. I think it was great too. That doesn't mean I believe the white man is the devil. JIM CROW WAS THE LAW OF THE LAND IN 1959 IN THE SOUTH! Until you acknowledge THAT in light of your quote, you are engaging in the most disingenuous, dishonest, and outright VILE character assassination! Seriously! What you are saying is "Gates thought it was great someone stood up to the Jim Crow regime? Called them names? RACIST!"

Disgusting.



Why don't you post some actual evidence? Rely on something other than a vast reservoir of racial resentment and your own assumptions.

Really.....you think it's great that 'The White Man' is the devil? Not the nuanced 'Racist White Men' or 'Those who wrote Jim Crow laws'.........but the general 'The White Man is the Devil' INCLUDING those who struggled to bring equality and fairness to society! That's pretty telling.

By the way, the PROOF of Skippy Gates continued racist views are his CURRENT actions and words, including this incident, which he turned in to a racial incident PURELY by his own actions.......I don't have to prove that to you, as it's obvious your biases wouldn't let you believe it if I had a written confession......but the majority of Americans are certainly seeing it that way.


Here's a hint.......TRULY racist people let their racism seep out in moments of stress........remind me.....what did Skippy Gates say during his encounter with Sgt. Crowley?

 

[Archangel M]

Can you possibly accept that maybe, just maybe, Sergeant Crowley was within his authority, and took reasonable steps to avoid the arrest, then took Dr. Gates into custody only when he felt that it was the best option available in light of the totality of the circumstances? That it wasn't just a knee jerk, out of control response to a situation where someone challenged his authority?

That obviously wouldn't mesh with his worldview in relation to LEO's.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Thus, a relatively minor affair gets blown into a massive Event that has consumed the news cycle for going on two weeks now.

Bwahaha!! Yeah, THOSE are the reasons this has been in the news so long. Its not the medias fault for making an arrest for a minor law violation into NATIONAL news? Its NOT the fault of the President of the United States opening hit trap on the matter in front of the press?

NO..its a vast right wing conspiracy thats the cause of all this.

Please.

That's the spin for every inconvenient issue......'Vast Rightwing Conspiracy'..........it's starting to sound more like the Dimocrat Underground or the Daily Kook in some corners.

 

[Carol]

Can we work in some pro-gun rhetoric?

[gratuitous pro-gun rhetoric]

The Cambridge PD can be armed.

But not Professor Gates. HarvardRES does not allow guns or ammunition in university housing, even if the resident is properly licensed.

Perhaps if Professor Gates was allowed to own a gun in his own home, he wouldn't have felt as frustrated and powerless.

So There. :lfao:

[/gratuitous pro-gun rhetoric]

 

[sgtmac_46]

So now you're accusing him of entrapment?

Look, it seems you've already decided that Sgt. Crowley was out of control, looking to arrest Professor Gates for whatever reason, maybe just because he dared to question the sergeant. You're going to interpret everything as being a means for Sergeant Crowley to further that.

I've said several times that, given the circumstances, the arrest may not have been the wisest or best choice. That doesn't matter, because it was the choice that Sergeant Crowley made in the moment. He was there, I wasn't. I can think of arrests I've made that, in hindsight, might have been better satisfied with some other action. Oh, well. Just like Sergeant Crowley, I had legal authority and justification for the arrest. I can think of other times when I should've or could've arrested, and didn't.

Can you possibly accept that maybe, just maybe, Sergeant Crowley was within his authority, and took reasonable steps to avoid the arrest, then took Dr. Gates into custody only when he felt that it was the best option available in light of the totality of the circumstances? That it wasn't just a knee jerk, out of control response to a situation where someone challenged his authority?

NOPE! NOPE! NOPE! Law Enforcement officers MUST not only make the 'Objectively Reasonable' decision based on the situation at hand.....they MUST make the decision that will make the entire country happy, including all the TV Cop experts in their arm chairs......OTHERWISE they are a racist and bad cop.

At the same time, while the standards for behavior applied to an individual law enforcement officer on the part of many people is obscenely HIGH........they apply a far LOWER standard to the judgment of the MOST POWERFUL MAN ON THE PLANET!

In their twisted warped world view the local street cop has such AWESOME POWER as to require that any who fills the job must not only do it perfectly, but please everyone in the process.......while the POTUS (if he's the right political ideology) can pretty much screw up as bad as he wants, with the justification that he's only human.

Bottom line......Sgt. Crowley, motivated by his view of enforcing the law and maintaining order.......regardless of critique on his actions at the moment. I have zero reason to believe that race even factored in to his actions EXCEPT to perhaps to DELAY a more assertive response out of the notion that this would blow up in his face!

 

[sgtmac_46]

[gratuitous pro-gun rhetoric]

The Cambridge PD can be armed.

But not Professor Gates. HarvardRES does not allow guns or ammunition in university housing, even if the resident is properly licensed.

Perhaps if Professor Gates was allowed to own a gun in his own home, he wouldn't have felt as frustrated and powerless.

So There. :lfao:

[/gratuitous pro-gun rhetoric]

Okay, that was pretty good!

 

[yorkshirelad]

Post even the SLIGHTEST evidence that is the case. Your quote won't cut it! He said it was "great" that Malcolm X called the white man the devil and got in his face in 1959. I think it was great too. That doesn't mean I believe the white man is the devil. JIM CROW WAS THE LAW OF THE LAND IN 1959 IN THE SOUTH! Until you acknowledge THAT in light of your quote, you are engaging in the most disingenuous, dishonest, and outright VILE character assassination! Seriously! What you are saying is "Gates thought it was great someone stood up to the Jim Crow regime? Called them names? RACIST!"

Disgusting.



Why don't you post some actual evidence? Rely on something other than a vast reservoir of racial resentment and your own assumptions.

Again, for the umpteenth time, GATES and OBAMA brought race into this quagmire, so much so that Obama is now back peddling. Why the diatribe Empty, admit it Gates is a race bater and because of that he is by definition a racist. God, you need to take an ativan.