Questions on Stephen Hayes

[Enson]

Yes. That is correct. Train To-Shin Do and earn a Buj rank.

hasn't that been stated already?:idunno:

 

[Seig]

hasn't that been stated already?:idunno:

I didn't know the answer. I found it valuable. What I also have found to be very cool is that in the links some of the traditionalists have posted lately is that Hatsumi Sensei does not require a set curriculuum. My next question is this,"In To-Shin-Do" is there a set curriculuum?

 

[RRouuselot]

Bester, I would recommend you take great care on how your respond to and about mods. MT administrators are pretty strict about that.

that's kind of a 2 way street.......
In the past there were several "Mods" on MT that got a little too snippy with some of the members and were relieved of duty…..I would imagine Kaith wouldn’t have a problem relieving more if it were deemed necessary.

 

[gmunoz]

I didn't know the answer. I found it valuable. What I also have found to be very cool is that in the links some of the traditionalists have posted lately is that Hatsumi Sensei does not require a set curriculuum. My next question is this,"In To-Shin-Do" is there a set curriculuum?

Yes, To-Shin Do does have a set curriculum. I looked on RVD's courses and he, too, has a set curriculum that progresses the the Bujinkan Kyu's. There is still a set curriculum, or structure rather, in both organizations that comprise the Kyu level one is working at.

 

[Limeydog]

I believe that An Shu Hayes offers "Modern" and "Traditional" courses for the HSC. Hence a Toshindo rank and a Bujinkan rank. It all depends on what you want. In the Quest centers they offer Toshindo classes and the Shadow of Iga classes. I believe the latter to be Bujinkan...

For those of you interested I posted on the Rick Tew Question regarding background of instructors. Lets keep the posts honest, yet friendly as we seem to be going in the same direction as all other forums.

Peace to all
Patrick

 

[Limeydog]

Hi Seig,

Yes there is a set curricullum in Toshindo, much like American Kenpo (self defense techniques, but they are called Kata). I come from an American Kenpo background (Bryan Hawkins-United Kenpo Systems) and like things to be organized. When I first heard of ninjutsu I thought it was very "fly by night" but once I looked into it I found that it was very structured.

Hope this helps

 

[Bester]

There is a number of articles on Hayes website concerning his teachings:

One good article is:
Ancient vs. Modern Ninja Training
http://www.skhquest.com/articles/ancientmodernninjutsu.aspx

More at http://www.skhquest.com/articles/default.aspx

 

[heretic888]

I did a search for books and videos relating to him. The results at Amazon were interesting to say the least. (I think their search is broken).

I found this: The Last Ninja - Bujinkan TaiKai USA DVD which while most likely belonging on the traditional side, may be of interest here as well.

It was interesting to see the number of books he's been involved in as well. (http://www.skhquest.com/shop/booklist.aspx) I have 3 of them, wasn't aware there were so many others though still in print.

(Have these: The Ninja and Their Secret Fighting Art, Ninjutsu: The Art of the Invisible Warrior, The Mystic Arts of the Ninja: Hypnotism, Invisibility, and Weaponry)

Time to head to check out Half.com.

It should be remembered, Bester, that Hayes has subsequently redacted many of his earlier claims --- especially in regards to "ninja history". His later works (such as Ninja Vol. 5: Lore of the Shinobi Warrior) reflect this.

 

[Bester]

So noted. I'll be updating my reference library next month. I've added the missing books to the "wish list".

 

[gmunoz]

Speaking of Hayes' books. I assume those training in To-Shin Do have or are reading Enlightened Self Protection by An-Shu Hayes. How did you enjoy it and what are your thoughts?

 

[Satt]

Speaking of Hayes' books. I assume those training in To-Shin Do have or are reading Enlightened Self Protection by An-Shu Hayes. How did you enjoy it and what are your thoughts?

I really enjoyed it. It was very interesting. SKH must have a good artist/video crew working for him. I just need to start memorizing the action codes and stuff.

 

[Limeydog]

Still waiting for my order to arrive, but will let you know as soon as I have read it. Man oh man it's like waiting for Christmas and your first born all rolled together. Looking forward to spending some quality mat time with you guys (Jason and Gabriel).

 

[gmunoz]

Pat, so what are you using to train right now if you haven't received your material? I too, am looking so forward to meeting you both in person and gettin' knocked around in training...

 

[Satt]

Pat, so what are you using to train right now if you haven't received your material? I too, am looking so forward to meeting you both in person and gettin' knocked around in training...

We are SO gonna kick each other's butts!!! LOL. Yeah, I can't wait. I just hope I can get the money for it soon. I am getting ready to start taping my Earth element test really soon. I have to beg my wife to let me spend the $45 testing fee. (Yes, I am whipped.) I love her though.

 

[Limeydog]

Hi Guys,

Whilst I am waiting for my material I am practice mainly my basics (Kihon and Sanshin no Kata) I was lucky enought to have started Budo Taijutsu a while ago and am using my lesson notes to keep me going. I also the Togakure Kihon DVD from An Shu Hayes. I am trying to build as good a foundation as I can with what I have. I also have found a Bujinkan class nearby that Dan Weidman kindly told me/invited me to on a Tuesday night...

I also like to keep myself busy with the other systems I study. I try to look at them from a Taijutsu perspective.

How long did it take you guys to get your DVD's once you had ordered them? It's been just over a week for me. My Togakure DVD got here within 6 days of ordering it.

 

[te_greening]

at a relatively recent (around june) seminar in sydney a high ranking instructor put out a message to all present that if bujinkan students trained with stephen hayes (who was actually one of four instructors (black-)listed) then they were not welcome to train with the bujinkan. this message was apparently directly from hatsumi.

 

[Satt]

Oh well. I still enjoy SKH's teaching. In the end you just have to do what is right for YOU. Just because you mentioned it, here is a little note off his website...

"I am sure you have read some disconcerting stuff on the internet from critics of my program. Please remember that the most severe critics have never actually visited my school to see what I am doing. The way I up-graded the old curriculum when I started my school really frightened and shocked a lot of old friends and students, but I had to change if I wanted to offer the best possible self-protection training to my community. And of course it is true that shocked and frightened people tend to over-react in defensiveness. All kinds of absurd things started to fly around the internet – I had “watered down” the training, I was running a “belt factory”, I was “only in it for the money”, and other silly things that scared people came up with to protect the beliefs that make them feel special. Well, my new curriculum is not watered down, it is more demanding and more relevant, but it did scare a lot of old Bujinkan people, and frightened people do tend to over-react…"

Also go to this link for info on SKH and Hatsumi...

http://www.skhquest.com/articles/MasaakiHatsumi.aspx

...Just so you know his thoughts on it a little. I don't see why you wouldn't be allowed to just sample both though you know. That way you could really make up your OWN mind. Hope this helps.

 

[te_greening]

i've read some of stephen hayes stuff mainly when i first started to get intrested in ninjitsu, which is also when there wasn't much to read about ninjitsu. i wouldn't bother with it now.

i also agree that you should do whatever art you enjoy doing.

i do think it's a bit of a problem that it is only during relatively recent times that these teachers have been actually acknowledging that they are no longer affiliated with bujinkan.

it seems that stephen hayes has been developing his own brand of ninjitsu for some time, but was unwilling to actually state this. implying that it is a slight variation on bujinkan.

there is a similar situation in australia with wayne roy who was one of the first acknowledged guys from here to train (however briefly) in japan. he is no longer affiliated with bujinkan (to the best of my knowledge), but until quite recently his instructors were keeping quiet about the fact that roy's ninjitsu had no ties with japan.
i'm not sure whether they were uncertain themselves, whether the break was genuinely recent, or whether they were unwilling to acknowledge that they had no ties to japan. roy's style is his own concoction. he himself says that his style is his own interpretation of his experience in ninjitsu training, plus some other bits. it's a bit of this, bit of that, all thrown in together. i know cos i did it for a while, until i went and found a real school.

from what you are saying it seems like the stephen hayes situation is pretty similar.

i think that these instructors in general should just come out and say that they are a new style, which is not linked to the traditional styles in japan (where appropriate), so the students can decide for themselves whether they want to be associated with what is essentially a made up martial art.

from what i've seen the new schools take precious little from the old schools any way so why would they want to be associated, except for maybe commercial reasons.

call it 'modern street fighting', 'street effective combat arts' whatever, but if it's not genuinely based on ninjitsu technique then don't imply that it is.

now down off the soapbox...

 

[Enson]

first... a high ranking buj member using the word "ninjItsu"... awesome!

second the truth of the matter is, probably... no one would even know about ninjutsu if it wasn't for hayes. i don't care where it came from. he is the one who was the source for all the info one could want on ninjutsu and apperantly continues to be the source of info on ninjutsu history.

go hayes!artyon:

 

[Bob Hubbard]

it seems that stephen hayes has been developing his own brand of ninjitsu for some time, but was unwilling to actually state this. implying that it is a slight variation on bujinkan.

You could state this, but my thinking is that SKH's stuff is less his own original creation, but a reorganization, and modification to his Buj. training done to fit the cultural differences of an American audience. The core of everything is based on his years in the Buj,

there is a similar situation in australia with wayne roy who was one of the first acknowledged guys from here to train (however briefly) in japan. he is no longer affiliated with bujinkan (to the best of my knowledge), but until quite recently his instructors were keeping quiet about the fact that roy's ninjitsu had no ties with japan.

The difference here is that Hayes was an active student for I believe a decade of Dr. Hatsumi, not just a part-time dabbler who did a few seminars.

i'm not sure whether they were uncertain themselves, whether the break was genuinely recent, or whether they were unwilling to acknowledge that they had no ties to japan. roy's style is his own concoction. he himself says that his style is his own interpretation of his experience in ninjitsu training, plus some other bits. it's a bit of this, bit of that, all thrown in together. i know cos i did it for a while, until i went and found a real school.

from what you are saying it seems like the stephen hayes situation is pretty similar.

Many differences.

i think that these instructors in general should just come out and say that they are a new style, which is not linked to the traditional styles in japan (where appropriate), so the students can decide for themselves whether they want to be associated with what is essentially a made up martial art.

I agree. Why hide your art behind marketing hype and mysticism?

from what i've seen the new schools take precious little from the old schools any way so why would they want to be associated, except for maybe commercial reasons.

call it 'modern street fighting', 'street effective combat arts' whatever, but if it's not genuinely based on ninjitsu technique then don't imply that it is.

now down off the soapbox...

A number of questionable individuals call their arts/styles/etc "Ninjitsu", without knowing or caring about the real meaning or even having any real Ninjutsu in them. Mr. Hayes has legit, long-term real ninjutsu training, but to my knowledge has not marketed his ToShinDo as ninjustsu. He does however have a traditional program available.