Questioning the efficacy of Kata

[Zero]

How does your mindset work out for you in fights. Once you are actually engaged in them?

Brawls and street fights (quite a few fights, differing in agression and intent on the street a few at parties and one in a bar when I was much younger): mind set was confrontational, aggressive, more than willing to get involved, alchohol sometimes involved but often not much (mindset probably not disimilair to Tez's army guys). I was always big/strong and athletic for my age and had years of judo and TKD (for what it is worth) so did fairly well, better, more wins than not. Got some hidings, split lips, black eyes, broken finger, etc but nothing too bad, couple times things started getting scary.

One street fight in London with an ex-hard man turned cab driver: more of a fun, mutual exchange. I put one controlled snap kick into side of his head as he was coming in with raised fists and ended up suplexing him on the asphalt road by his cab, transitioned to ground n pound in a very controlled manner. He had a bloody lip and cut knuckles from hitting the road and we laughed about it after and reminisced about his younger hard-man years.

Competition fights: always enjoyed judo and TKD, always very competitive and happy mindset. Shifted to full contact kickboxing and karate tournaments. Initial fights I still got some pre and after fight jitters/shakes a you are dishing out and receiving a full on hidding but after a bit and for many years now mind set generally calm outlook and nothing more, it's just getting down to business. Same with the few mma and free style fights I have been in. I have won far, far more tournaments than lost.

To be frank with you, I train very competitively for a fight, I work my conditioning to the max both base fitness, fight fitness and strength and work on hand speed, etc big time. But my mindset is focused but calm generally; it is not a hyped "competitive" state.

SD: jumped by four guys with no immeidate exit. Tried to de-escalate, when they got in red zone I ended up punching three straight in the face and each went down. Mind-set: happended very quick, not sure, was reflex. Don't remember having shakes after. I went from trying to talk them down to essentiallly immediately lashing out when I was getting smothered.

Shop-lifter/citizen's arrest: shop lifter escaping from several mall and waitrose security guards, barging through average Jo-Public. Mind-set: "take guy out", I remember looking at his hands to see if he was packing something to avoid. Didn't telegraph anything, when crook coming alongside I shoulder barged him into shop wall, spear tackled him to ground and put shoulder lock on him with knee pin until security guys caught up.

There it is all laid out for you, quite a cathartic exercise.

 

[Tez3]

We've had new postings in with the withdrawal of the troops from Germany. I'm so pleased have retired and don't have to deal with one regiment in particular, the Highlanders who have taken the place of the Scots Guards. It's my father's old regiment. They have a reputation of being hard, they will fight as soon as look at you, only the Paras and Royal Irish fight as much as they do. I've spent 20 years breaking up fights, ducking flying pub furniture, skirting spilt beer and jumping of squaddies bigger than me, so glad not to have to do it anymore. Oh and the Highlanders? they have recruited the biggest meanest looking rugby playing Fijians they can find, I don't think I will even be going out locally much.

I forgot, we have the rugby World cup coming up, I was working during the last one, it was hell. Scotland v England v Wales v Fiji v Ireland, we have soldiers from all of those places and it's as good a reason for a fight as any. Thank goodness the Gurkhas don't fight in public.

 

[drop bear]

How many self defense situations have you been in and, separately, where there may be multiple assailents becoming involved?

How many serious unsanctioned street fights have you been in? I mean serious fights outside of the ring where someone is trying to hurt you?

Been a few.
Bounced for 20ish years.

 

[JowGaWolf]

OK. Most people don't fight to win. They fight not to loose. It is means they are fighting half in half out. And that works against their commitment to get the fight over.

Eg.

ha ha ha..Here's a walk through of the fight
(0:00 - 0:34) "I'm scared to get hit that's why neither one of us can hit the other"
(0:35 - 1:05) "I'm tired so I'm going to talk crap while I catch my breath"
(1:30 - 1:40) "I'm still tired so I'm just going to lay here.
(1:50 - 2:19) "Damn, I'm still tired"

That fight gets an A+ for effort lol. It's a good thing neither one of them really wanted to fight. Maybe the camera cause the fight because neither one wanted to look weak on camera.

 

[Zero]

Been a few.
Bounced for 20ish years.

Good, so you should have a fair bit of real world to draw on and not just mat time (and it's probably why you do have awareness and pre-fight skills, when many sports fighters, if they are not adding other things to their repertoire, do not).

That said, bouncing and a bouncing mind set is totally different to SD. Clearly if you are a good bouncer you need to have great awareness and people/situation reading ability. And sure you can (depending on location or overall number of other support/bouncers) at times be going into hairy situations, but you are generally acting from a position of "authority", as an instigator of your action on another and often with backup nearby or already there (and with the cops coming in a possibility) and with numerous witnesses/patrons. If you are good and the yob is not wired or drunk you can use de-escalation or you may need to simply act to escort or put the dude on his can on the street.

The mind set is very different from an SD situation, where you may be on your own, on unfamiliar ground and when faced with a surprise attack and/or greater numbers against you. And remember, the focus is now on "you" and not you wading in to blind side some yob causing trouble. Much of the skills and "presence" garnered from bouncing can be put to use if faced with certain SD scenarios - but it is a different situation and needs a different approach, mind set and all.

I am going to hazard a guess and say that I bet deep down, when you dwell on it, you know that.

 

[Zero]

We've had new postings in with the withdrawal of the troops from Germany. I'm so pleased have retired and don't have to deal with one regiment in particular, the Highlanders who have taken the place of the Scots Guards. It's my father's old regiment. They have a reputation of being hard, they will fight as soon as look at you, only the Paras and Royal Irish fight as much as they do. I've spent 20 years breaking up fights, ducking flying pub furniture, skirting spilt beer and jumping of squaddies bigger than me, so glad not to have to do it anymore. Oh and the Highlanders? they have recruited the biggest meanest looking rugby playing Fijians they can find, I don't think I will even be going out locally much.

I forgot, we have the rugby World cup coming up, I was working during the last one, it was hell. Scotland v England v Wales v Fiji v Ireland, we have soldiers from all of those places and it's as good a reason for a fight as any. Thank goodness the Gurkhas don't fight in public.

Those rugby players can be huge too, a lot of them just naturally big lads. I am 6ft (nothing in itself) but have done a lot of heavy weights over the years so broad and large but when you come up against these guys in pubs or clubs, it's like, shoot, what did your momma feed you when you were growing!! : ) You don't get if from the screen or watching the matches live but when you see them in person they're pretty big units. Not necessarily the best fighters but monstrous lads!! Must have been hell getting trampled by Jonah back in the day, those poor English fellas getting cut down like stalks of wheat... : ) hehe!
Bring on the World Cup, actually let's stop talking about the rugby, I don't want any jinxes!!!

 

[Tez3]

Rugby world cup should be good. During the Football world cup ( soccer) the level of violence in pubs, clubs and at home rises. It's known that domestic violence escalates during the football world cup. The relatively modern thing about watching the matches on screens in pubs etc has brought together the football thugs, alcohol and Jingoism as well as national divides ( here we have the Scotland v England thing which tends to be violent) We've seen on repeated news reports fans going on the rampage in foreign cities, people being killed and badly injured. The violence isn't confined to British fans but throughout Europe. There is a culture of violence which actually has little to do with sport but views violence as a sport in itself. Getting caught up in that sort of mob violence is horrendous and needs more than a competitive mind set and skills to get out of.

 

[drop bear]

I am going to hazard a guess and say that I bet deep down, when you dwell on it, you know that

Really no. For the bulk of it I think it is a fantasy made up to sell self defence training. Like sunscreen.(where you can buy the face one or the sport one but they all have the same ingredients)

If deescalation or awareness was ever trained in a comprehensive and proven method and so validate a mindset difference then I would agree. But it isn't.

Otherwise I almost never fight when I am not being paid to. It is not that hard to avoid. Don't be a duche and leave if things are getting heated. I mean how simple is that. I spent 20 years not being allowed to leave a confrontation. Everybody else has it easy.

 

[Tez3]

Like sunscreen.(where you can buy the face one or the sport one but they all have the same ingredients)

Sunscreens don't all have the same ingredients, some are effective some aren't, they come in different strengths which is why you have different ones for face, children, fair people etc etc. Not all sunscreens are equal. the cheap ones you buy are often very weak and need applying very often, the more expensive ones are more effective due to have better ingredients which do the job better and don't irritate the skin.

 

[Zero]

Really no. For the bulk of it I think it is a fantasy made up to sell self defence training. Like sunscreen.(where you can buy the face one or the sport one but they all have the same ingredients)

If deescalation or awareness was ever trained in a comprehensive and proven method and so validate a mindset difference then I would agree. But it isn't.

Otherwise I almost never fight when I am not being paid to. It is not that hard to avoid. Don't be a duche and leave if things are getting heated. I mean how simple is that. I spent 20 years not being allowed to leave a confrontation. Everybody else has it easy.

I think you used this "proven" reference in another similar themed post/topic. I don't know how much merit the word's inclusion has. Very hard to prove by using de-escalation, awareness or avoidance training that a fight or altercation was avoided. Would be such a large scale complex poll that would need to be undertaken to basically determine of the population (maybe with a martial artist sub-set) how many of those that trained in SD specific teachings and applied them, in comparison to people that did not, ended up being jumped/mugged/attacked. To my knowledge, that kind of survey has not been undertaken as yet. And I am not going to buy an argument that that means SD training is not effective - because it is not "proven".

With that out of the way, de-escalation, awareness, avoidance and much more is absolutely consistently drilled at dedicated SD classes/schools and to a lesser degree (I admit), in some martial arts schools. My old goju ryu school was just such a place, it was heavily focused on competitions and fighting but also thankfully three of the top seniors/senseis were also very much into SD and other real world applications. Again, I have nothing against bjj but I just don't think you have seen it at your particular club (and you will not see a focus on this at most bjj clubs, the same was when I did judo, (never saw any training other than focused on mat/sport application).

You are making the mistake of taking your view and experience and applying this to all things. There is no need to be walking the streets with a competitive mind set or feeling the need to be ready to drop into such a mind set.

Absolutely agree with you on most of the times it is not that hard to avoid these situations and it's better to just exit a bad looking scene! It's just plain common sense (which is a lot of what SD training entails) but unfortunately, a lot of this common sense does not seem obvious to many people - and why SD, for many, needs to be trained.

 

[drop bear]

I think you used this "proven" reference in another similar themed post/topic. I don't know how much merit the word's inclusion has. Very hard to prove by using de-escalation, awareness or avoidance training that a fight or altercation was avoided. Would be such a large scale complex poll that would need to be undertaken to basically determine of the population (maybe with a martial artist sub-set) how many of those that trained in SD specific teachings and applied them, in comparison to people that did not, ended up being jumped/mugged/attacked. To my knowledge, that kind of survey has not been undertaken as yet. And I am not going to buy an argument that that means SD training is not effective - because it is not "proven"

So it can,t be proven. Why would you assume it is effective?

 

[drop bear]

Sunscreens don't all have the same ingredients, some are effective some aren't, they come in different strengths which is why you have different ones for face, children, fair people etc etc. Not all sunscreens are equal. the cheap ones you buy are often very weak and need applying very often, the more expensive ones are more effective due to have better ingredients which do the job better and don't irritate the skin.

No a lot of times it is a marketing device. Cosmetics pull the same stunt. Same company same stuff different lable different price.

Not sunscreen but you get the idea.

 

[drop bear]

You are making the mistake of taking your view and experience and applying this to all things. There is no need to be walking the streets with a competitive mind set or feeling the need to be ready to drop into such a mind set.

When you are attacked you need to be prepared to drop the hammer. And you need to do it with a bit of haste.

When you deescalate you need to be prepared to drop the hammer.

In both circumstances it is you against them.

From my experience anyway.

 

[Tez3]

LOL at a chap telling a woman about cosmetics, son, you have no idea what I know about them!
Your analogy about sunscreens was almost right but probably not in the way you think. Various sunscreens has different ratings, they can also contain more active ingredients than others depending on cost, a cheap sunscreen will have very little active ingredients in it, more expensive ones have more plus are more stable. So basically the trick is to read the label carefully so you know what you are buying and isn't that just a metaphor for life ie don't assume everything is the same because it has the same 'name' and look carefully at what the 'ingredients' are and in what quantity before you buy, just the same as martial arts.

Oh and for those who live in or need a sunscreen this is a very good article which I recommend reading. yep off topic but life saving.
Sunscreen Fact Sheet - British Association of Dermatologists

 

[Zero]

When you are attacked you need to be prepared to drop the hammer. And you need to do it with a bit of haste.

When you deescalate you need to be prepared to drop the hammer.

In both circumstances it is you against them.

From my experience anyway.

Ah, yup, all valid points Dropbear. I just don't think that you equating any of that to (or requiring) a "competitive" mind set is correct. And if it is a competitive mind set (as in, "I am going to beat him") that you are generally applying to how you address SD circumstances, well, good luck to you and each to their own.

 

[Zero]

So it can't be proven. Why would you assume it is effective?

I never said it cannot be proven. I simply said that in my view it would be a massive task to do it on a large scale empirical / scientific level.

From my own experience, I have proven that it works. I have de-escalated situations that could very likely (I can actually say 99% (as you never know exactly what another person will do, but you can have a damn good idea when you have enough experience)) have gone to all out violence...and if I had gone about it with a "competitive" mind set, it would have gone violent, when there was no need for such.

I have assessed environments becoming very shady and have exited and/or avoided such. I am going to put it back to you, that the fact I was not attacked therefore proves the effectiveness of these skills.

 

[Zero]

When you are attacked you need to be prepared to drop the hammer. And you need to do it with a bit of haste.

When you deescalate you need to be prepared to drop the hammer.

In both circumstances it is you against them.

From my experience anyway.

Not always. And in this context, "you against them" is not a competition and a competitive mind set is therefore not optimal or even on point.

 

[RTKDCMB]

It's a good thing neither one of them really wanted to fight.

Or knew how to.

 

[RTKDCMB]

So it can,t be proven. Why would you assume it is effective?

'Proof' implies absolutes and there are no absolutes in nature.

 

[drop bear]

Not always. And in this context, "you against them" is not a competition and a competitive mind set is therefore not optimal or even on point.

You against them is kind of the definition of competition.