KATA: Is more better?

Is more Kata better, sure it is, it of course depending on one's needs.

I've known good Isshinryu practitioners who had no interest in doing more than Isshinryu's 8 empty hand forms and never tried the 6 weapons kata.

I've trained with instructors who've trained in 400-500 Chinese forms. In fact in the 80 or so empty hand forms in Faan Tzi Ying jow Pai (Norhtern Eagle Claw) one form Lin Kuen has 50 rows of techniques and may well be more complex than the entire body of Okinawan karate. As I understand it though the Northern Chinese arts build on each other and as you move into the more advancing forms you discontinue the earlier ones. You have to perform their basics correctly from the earlier sets in the advanced ones, so you spend your focus on advancing all the time.

With the exception of choosing to train in Isshinryu, and likewise choosing to study Yang Tai Chi Chaun and other Chinese forms to become a more knowledgable judge, I've never sought to study forms with anyone else. On the other hand it was explained to me if you are a black belt you don't say I can't, and training many places with many friends I've probably studied close to 200 kata, kuen, hung, sets and forms, and practiced most of them for several decades before I made senior choices.

I never tried to teach what was shared with me to my students, simply because it was outside of their need. I choose to visit those dojo and in turn trained, and if that meant learning another form so be it, I had no right to say no, I was a guest.

Of course many of them were variations of forms, Variations of Seisan, Chinto, Bassai dai and so forth. That made it sometime easier.

I never trained with anyone, ever who worried about mastering anything. Kata or tools, not endings. Your body keeps changing, inreasing its potential, your knowledge moves forward, you age, slow, learn new tactical doctrines....

I once remarked to the instructor who studied many hundreds of forms that I can't do it all, I was doing too much. His reply, it's not what you retain, it's what you experience that is important. If you have the opportunity and follow it, you gain deeper understanding of what others are doing. That is the key.

Those who can do, that's just it, nothing more.

I do understand great performance, the mastery term can be used, but it doesn't last. That great performance is a result of decades of movement, forwards, backwards, sideways, and when you see it, you have no idea what would be the answer 10 years later either.

It's neither the kata or the bunkai which is the answer, imo.

The goal is to have the knowledge and unerstanding how to tactiacally set up an attacker so your technique moves through them, interrupting their wa.

the pleasant pefection.
 
Probably a combination of two or more styles. For example, someone who has studied Shito Ryu and Shotokan Karate could certainly have that number of empty hand kata. There could easily be significant overlap, though, since both systems have a lot of similar kata (Enpi, Bassai Dai / Sho, Gankaku, Gojushiho Sho / Dai, Jion, Naihanchi / Tekki, etc).
actually there are no overlaping kata in our syllabas... I learned one with each name...i.e. I call them Heian so I don't list Pinan and Heian only Heian.... I have no doubt some of these kata are from different ancient sensei, all kata on our list are from before WWII.... We don't do "modern" kata, not even for Shiai.... learned them or at least 90% from Soke Joe Ruiz..... checked the kata movements with Yamazaki Sensei in 1998 and He said they were legit, but that almost nobody does some of them anymore....and Yes I practice Shito-Ryu.... which does appear to have 36 traditional kata from combining Naha-te and Shuri-Te.... Some kata i.e. Sansu (82 moves), Kumote (spider hands obviously Chinese), we have 5 bassai (Dai, Sho, Ni, San, Tomori) Long and very advanced....seem to be indigenous and can be traced back to Kiyoshi Aihara (Hawaii) and Kanki Izumagawa (Japan) two early modern martial art meijins.....interestingly I have been looking for similar kata from other systems/styles and have been unsuccessful thus far.....weapons came mostly from "Koga-Ryu"... I have only one other source of a "Koga" encounter..... It seems, Kiyoshi Yamazaki, Sensei had occasion for a "Koga Ninja Clansman" to visit his dojo.....to prove his authenticity, the Kogaman told Yamazaki, Sensei the distance from the front door of his dojo to his office within 1/4 of an inch... He told me the Kogaman measured by dragging his finger along the wall as they walked to the office.... Yamazaki Sensei was impressed. After he measured the distance himself.....so it appears to be legit...I know, from watching and having them used on me, they work, they are awsome to view, even more awsome to practice. bunkai is incredible!!!!
 
I teach a total of 23 empty hand kata up to 5th Dan and I feel that really is a lot when its not just the steps / movements. There are so many waza in those kata that I am very content with them. I am not working on expanding my kobudo background as well.
 
actually there are no overlaping kata in our syllabas... I learned one with each name...i.e. I call them Heian so I don't list Pinan and Heian only Heian.... I have no doubt some of these kata are from different ancient sensei, all kata on our list are from before WWII....

Now that's impressive, indeed!

Glad to have you aboard this forum, and I look forward to hearing about your experiences!
 
I have a poblem with Abernathy's theoris he sells. His mind is so open that his brain fell out. Kata does not translate to modern mma fighting. Kata techniques are for quickly and efficiently ending an attack. They are not for sprawling,mounting,and doing an armbar.

The fact is, he is making money from his theories. It's only a matter of time before more theories emerge.
Brian,

Not necessarily so. Kata can translate to mma fighting although that was not the initial use, especially against a sword wielding opponent. If one slips in the heat of things and does go to the ground, the sprawling, mounting and armbars become useful. Seeing as how ancient kata came from an area that lacked pavement for firm footing, I have a hard time with the possibility of there never being the contingency of going to the ground in the kata somewhere.

Yours,
Dan Anderson
 
His articles about karate on the ground and his interpretations of kata are just take offs of mma.

Karate does not encompass all ranges and some people just can't grasp that. They wish to somehow legitimize karate by spreading that it covers everything when in fact it does not.

I do not dispute your interpretation on this individual. You have your right to your opinion. But let me ask you this. Can you say for sure what the original intent of the hidden meanings of your kata are?
How can you? Who can say what they really meant? The founders taught their art to their family and it may be several generations in some arts before it was taught to the public or outsiders. Then they are absorbed into different arts and passed down again. By the time it gets to us who knows what the original intent was.
It is human nature to put a spin on everything we do. To adapt it to our needs and our understanding of how it best suits us as individuals.
I wonder what the original intent was when the founders learned a form in china and brought it back and reformulated it into what we know today as Karate? But is Karate today what the founders actually practiced? Are the Kata today the Kata that the founders invented and are the interpretations of the hidden techniques the same that they intended them to be?
I don't think they are. Humans have a way of evolving to things that impact them.
I understand your point and I think that he is trying to shift Karate to mma to prove that it is still viable but if even one of his
interpretations has worth doesn't it warrant consideration? After all we are all just guessing as to the original intent of the founder unless the founder is still alive. who knows he may be closer than the rest of us. I pray not but you will never know unless you can talk to the dead of course bn.
Just food for though. God Bless.
 
When I studied Karate under my sensei the standard was...

Learn the 1st kata well, not perfect, but consistently correct and continually improving...
then learn the next and begin the same process until you were again consistently correct and continually improving...
...and then learn the 3rd until such time as you were consistently correct and continually improving...

then the 4th...
5th
-
100th....

Quantity? A matter of time.
Quality? A matter of tireless dedication to excellence through details!!

BOTH are good, both together.........
a LIFETIME of good Budo!

Your Brother
John
 
Excellent post. My thougts exactly.




When I studied Karate under my sensei the standard was...

Learn the 1st kata well, not perfect, but consistently correct and continually improving...
then learn the next and begin the same process until you were again consistently correct and continually improving...
...and then learn the 3rd until such time as you were consistently correct and continually improving...

then the 4th...
5th
-
100th....

Quantity? A matter of time.
Quality? A matter of tireless dedication to excellence through details!!

BOTH are good, both together.........
a LIFETIME of good Budo!

Your Brother
John
 
I might not be up to date on Abernathy`s latest work but is this not exactly what he is saying too?

Yup. Check out his Karate's Grappling Methods, and you will read the following:

Grappling is to be avoided if at all possible. This is especially true of ground fighting. Your aim when you go to the ground is to regain your feet as quickly as possible; it is not your aim to use all kinds of locks and holds... the more time you spend on the floor, the more time your attacker's friends and accomplices will have to kick and punch you.

...In all honesty, if you go to the ground alone, either on your own or with your opponent, your chances of getting up are not good...you must do everything you can to get to your feet as quickly as possible.

(p. 19)

Repeatedly, in his books and DVDs, Abernethy sounds this note: he shows the depth of grappling applications within the kata—applications stressed by Gichin Funakoshi and Choki Motobu, among others—but emphases that on the ground, you can use some of the same vertical moves encoded in the kata to control your opponent enough to let you get to your feet first and dispatch them with linear striking techniques.

So it's very strange to read the following:


His articles about karate on the ground and his interpretations of kata are just take offs of mma.

MMA, which for the past decade was dominated by fighters whose purpose was to go to ground and win there?? Whose poster children are the Gracies? With Abernethy telling us in book after book just what he says above: to hell with the ground, get upright as soon as possible, and here's how to do it??

Karate does not encompass all ranges and some people just can't grasp that. They wish to somehow legitimize karate by spreading that it covers everything when in fact it does not.

Here's Abernethy telling us to avoid the ground at all costs, that you may find yourself there, in which case you need to know how to get up from it, and there are extensions of karate's vertical techs which will help you do that; and now we're apparently being told that Abernethy is trying to 'legitimize karate' by claiming its techniques are extendable to something like the ground game, as in MMA.

Let me just suggest that if people want to understand what Abernethy is really saying about karate and the ground range, they read what he says, rather than relying on a summary which gets what he says inside out and backward, and in a pointlessly nasty way to boot. Abernethy's mind is so open that his brains have fallen out? Really... :rolleyes:
 
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Show me another move, the famous words of many a new student. Show me my next kata so I can take my next test is a song heard so very often in many a DoJo. “Is more better?” Give me one hundred students and we may come up with but a few warriors. Kata teaches us so much more then just moves. As some of us know, kata is the foundation that all of our Martial arts comes from. Kata is a solo proving ground where we delve deep into our mind and we are able to function beyond any rules that can bind us. Kata is where we can unleash that animal part of us that most people outside of Martial arts will never experience. In Kata we are able to take our opponent to the death, I look at it as a way of bringing out our violent nature, but at the same time with a sense of control over anger which is truly our enemy. Kata is where you can truly meet our opponent on the battle field and win decisively, to the death. If this is where your Kata is bringing you, then if you want 100 of them, so be it. “Is more better” This is a personal choese. When shooting a gun there is but one way to kill with it, point and fire. Law enforcement and the Military are able to spark that part of a persons mind that is able to function under life and death situations. They are touching something deep within the minds of their people similar to what Kata can do for us, and that is a sense of realism. We need to ask ourself what is Kata to me, and where is my training taking me.
 
I used to be a fan of training a large number of kata. I had the idea that if I had a large body of knowledge that it ment I was a better martial artist. When I was exploring American Kenpo and a bit of Tracy kenpo I got it in my head that the more techniques(which are very much like miniture kata, although mostly performed with partners) I knew, the better of a fighter I would be.

Then I discovered boxing and JKD concepts.

Armed with a limited arsenal and filtered through a training program that vastly improved my strength, speed, and endurance, my skills as a martial artist grew by leaps and bounds.

For me, the object lesson was clear. I learn better with a teaching model that stresses fewer skills to internalize, that I can then polish to a higher level of proficiency. I personally would rather spend my training time developing functional attributes like power, agility, speed, flexibility, timing, and such, I just don't utilize kata, or a plethora of techniques, as the pirmary means of doing so. I use weight training, running, eliptical(although I am starting to think that there is a demon trapped in each of those machines), shadow boxing, heavy bag traing, sparring, lots of drilling(kihon), and finally kata(with special emphasis on bunkai) to accomplish those training goals.

On a consistant basis I train and teach as my white through shodan program the following kata.
Taikyokyu
Heian 1-5
Tekki 1-3 ( I prefer to teach them really as one large kata but I break them up into the three segments through the brown belt program)
Bassai
Kanku Dai
After that I work the following as appropriate, when the mood strikes me or when a students is ready to learn one for grading.
Jion
Empi
Gojushiho
meikyo
chinte
unsu

I just don't really train the rest. When I get around to grading next year I guess I'll brush up, but untill then I focus on the ones that provide a solid work out for me and the material the my students are currently working on.

All of the above only applies to me and how I think. A huge number of other martial artist have had tremendous results with the traditional methods of learding and internalizing dozens if kata and a coupel of hundred techniques. In the process of doing so they develop functional strength, speed , agility, co-ordination (infact, there are two sets in EPAK calles Coordination Sets One and Two respectively) and endurance. They learn timing, good form, motion economics, and solid footwork. In short, it is as valid and effective of a teaching model as the small number of kata method that I espouse.

The key is matching up the student to the correct method. No one way will work for all students.

Mark
 

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