Questioning the efficacy of Kata

[drop bear]

Look, I am primarily a competition fighter, long time ago judo and now karate, kickboxing and to a lesser degree mma. I love to compete but thankfully I have trained in a karate club where due to the sensei's and seniors' personal back grounds (LEO, bouncer, SD instructor), there was also a big focus on SD. And I can tell you, while the right mind set is crucial, there is a world of difference between being in the ring and an SD scenario. For example, many sports focused or originated martial arts do go on about SD techniques - but they are always starting at the physical fight stage and from the perspective of submitting an opponent - that is very late in the SD game (and often the wrong (= least safest) path to have gone down or to have found yourself on). By example, you see this on "self defence bjj" or "combative bjj" websites and sales materials all the time.

I am talking about one aspect of training in this instance. I mean seriously if I said kata is flawed because you have to also do other things I would be accused of trolling.

Sorry kata doesn't teach you to swim so I don't see the relevance.

Otherwise I am one of very few people who regularly employ pre fight and awareness technique in situations that can regularly go either way. And that is a competition when done for reals.

 

[Tez3]

Otherwise I am one of very few people who regularly employ pre fight and awareness technique in situations that can regularly go either way.

How do you know that?

The swimming comment was a bit random wasn't it, is that why you think kata doesn't work, because it can't teach you to swim?

 

[drop bear]

How do you know that?

The swimming comment was a bit random wasn't it, is that why you think kata doesn't work, because it can't teach you to swim?

Because of the countless threads where people say they don't get into fights and avoid conditions where they might get into a fight. Who also teach deescalation.
And I am not sure what they are actually deescalating.Are we surviving the walk to the shops on pension day?

For the second part. Did you read that in context?

 

[Tez3]

Because of the countless threads where people say they don't get into fights and avoid conditions where they might get into a fight. Who also teach deescalation.
And I am not sure what they are actually deescalating.Are we surviving the walk to the shops on pension day?

For the second part. Did you read that in context?

Ah, so you are extracting the urine out of people because you think they are wimps, gotcha.

 

[DaveB]

Puts you half in half out of a fight. Where I believe you have to be all the way in or all the way out.

Self-defense is not a fight, even when you are fighting.

You should check out that mma vs marines video on youtube. Faced with three armed opponent's the mma guy reverts to training and takes one to the floor. Aiming to win is just not always the right way to think in self defense.

 

[Zero]

Puts you half in half out of a fight. Where I believe you have to be all the way in or all the way out.

But the other way could say a competitive mindset might be you will not take me to the deck or into that alley or the boot of that car.

Sorry, I simply do not follow what you are saying about half in/ half out of the fight. Can you please explain more for me? You saying that gives me the impression you know nothing about and have drilled for or trained in SD and may not have been in any real SD situation. I don't mean to sound harsh, I am not saying you are not a good bjj fighter and I may be completely wrong there but you saying that goes against a lot of what I have been told, trained in and experienced first hand.

SD itself is not always and if applied right, seldom about a "fight". I agree with the approach and mind set of when faced with/in an altercation of not being taken down or taken into an alley. But you are starting from the position of the fight being on and not having avoided such in the first place. Your approach is just one facet of many components. It can also be said that a "survival" mind set in the right context is a stronger and more robust one than even a "competitive mind set" when the **** hits the fan and you really have found yourself fighting for your life.

 

[Zero]

.

Otherwise I am one of very few people who regularly employ pre fight and awareness technique in situations that can regularly go either way. And that is a competition when done for reals.

That is good news, I am glad you put this into practice!! I still gotta disagree though with the statement that that is a competition when done for real. A competition in an MA sense is seldom "for real" - you seldom loose your nose, die, get gang raped, etc if you lose a competition, while any of those things can happen when the **** goes south in real life though. I do not see SD as a competition - it's not exactly a competition of "pitting your awareness and SD abilities against those potential assailants' intentions on the street"...but I could see how you might look at it as such...

 

[drop bear]

Sorry, I simply do not follow what you are saying about half in/ half out of the fight. Can you please explain more for me? You saying that gives me the impression you know nothing about and have drilled for or trained in SD and may not have been in any real SD situation. I don't mean to sound harsh, I am not saying you are not a good bjj fighter and I may be completely wrong there but you saying that goes against a lot of what I have been told, trained in and experienced first hand.

OK. Most people don't fight to win. They fight not to loose. It is means they are fighting half in half out. And that works against their commitment to get the fight over.

Eg.

 

[Tez3]

. Most people don't fight to win.

Most people I know fight because they enjoy it and I don't mean MMA or competition fights. Yes I know it's reprehensible but there you go.

 

[DaveB]

OK. Most people don't fight to win. They fight not to loose. It is means they are fighting half in half out. And that works against their commitment to get the fight over.

Eg.

This video shows consensual violence, not self-defense. This is what I meant when I said self-defense is not fighting, even when it is.

Two idiots deciding to settle a difference with violence requires that both parties consent to the fight. These kind of dominance exercises are indeed a competition requiring competitive thought. However these fights can usually be avoided by one party conceding or walking away.

Self-defense is when one party does not consent to violence. Then instead of two combatants you have one or more assailantso and victims. This happens when walking away isn't an option either through lack of warning, persistence on the part of the assailant or another factor like the need to protect someone.

In such circumstances the competitive mindset is too limited. The things you describe like being determined not to be dragged into an ally, fall far more comfortably into other terms than competitiveness. Determination, self preservation, will power; all fit and all can be developed without needing to win and sacrificing learning experiences to do so.

 

[Zero]

OK. Most people don't fight to win. They fight not to loose. It is means they are fighting half in half out. And that works against their commitment to get the fight over.

Eg.

Ok, thanks, I understand where you are coming from. But we gotta disagree on this one. I think the explanation and comments from DaveB to you on this are completely on point.

 

[Zero]

Most people I know fight because they enjoy it and I don't mean MMA or competition fights. Yes I know it's reprehensible but there you go.

I don't think that is reprehensible at all - it's just how it is. For whatever reason some people just enjoy to fight (in an unsanctioned setting), even if they take a beating now and then.

It's only reprehensible if they are forcing others to engage in a fight with them when the others did not want to or are having to respond to the violent provocations of a drunken yob.

 

[Zero]

I am talking about one aspect of training in this instance. I mean seriously if I said kata is flawed because you have to also do other things I would be accused of trolling.

Sorry kata doesn't teach you to swim so I don't see the relevance.

Otherwise I am one of very few people who regularly employ pre fight and awareness technique in situations that can regularly go either way. And that is a competition when done for reals.

If you are implying I am trolling, let me assure you, I am not (or at least I am not meaning to!!) : )

I understand you may be talking about just one aspect of training - but if that one aspect or its foundation is starting from a flawed position (in that it is not the best approach to SD), then others can raise their concerns. I think your views on the "competitive mind set" and its place in SD are incorrect - but that is just my take on it!

 

[Tez3]

I don't think that is reprehensible at all - it's just how it is. For whatever reason some people just enjoy to fight (in an unsanctioned setting), even if they take a beating now and then.

No they don't force people to fight, they just can't walk away when there's a fight in the offing. they know that someone is baiting them into fighting but they just smile and wade in. Luckily they win most times, they consider it a 'bonding' experience which I suppose it is, if you can be sure of your mates watching your back in a fight in a pub/on the street here you can be sure of them in a fire fight in a warzone is the thinking. On the whole I think they are correct, it's just a real bother cleaning up and doing the paperwork after the fights though. It may be something that non military can't understand, I don't know.

 

[drop bear]

This video shows consensual violence, not self-defense. This is what I meant when I said self-defense is not fighting, even when it is.

Two idiots deciding to settle a difference with violence requires that both parties consent to the fight. These kind of dominance exercises are indeed a competition requiring competitive thought. However these fights can usually be avoided by one party conceding or walking away.

Self-defense is when one party does not consent to violence. Then instead of two combatants you have one or more assailantso and victims. This happens when walking away isn't an option either through lack of warning, persistence on the part of the assailant or another factor like the need to protect someone.

In such circumstances the competitive mindset is too limited. The things you describe like being determined not to be dragged into an ally, fall far more comfortably into other terms than competitiveness. Determination, self preservation, will power; all fit and all can be developed without needing to win and sacrificing learning experiences to do so.

Except you are sacrificing learning experiences by not having a competitive element in your training. You can yell survival mindset at someone all you want but they are not going to develop one unless they are exposed to hardship.

Otherwise fighting is fighting. If you are getting punched in the head it does not matter how you got there.

If while you are being punched in the head your mind set is on how much you don't want to be there you will be at more risk of being bashed.

You need to equip your mind to switch from being a polite reasonable person to unleashing hell on a guy. And to do this you need to experience it. And not have to make up the difference between fighting and training with intent.

Especially in self defence where you have already lost momentum.

 

[drop bear]

No they don't force people to fight, they just can't walk away when there's a fight in the offing. they know that someone is baiting them into fighting but they just smile and wade in. Luckily they win most times, they consider it a 'bonding' experience which I suppose it is, if you can be sure of your mates watching your back in a fight in a pub/on the street here you can be sure of them in a fire fight in a warzone is the thinking. On the whole I think they are correct, it's just a real bother cleaning up and doing the paperwork after the fights though. It may be something that non military can't understand, I don't know.

What mindset do they have with these fights?

 

[drop bear]

If you are implying I am trolling, let me assure you, I am not (or at least I am not meaning to!!) : )

I understand you may be talking about just one aspect of training - but if that one aspect or its foundation is starting from a flawed position (in that it is not the best approach to SD), then others can raise their concerns. I think your views on the "competitive mind set" and its place in SD are incorrect - but that is just my take on it!

How does your mindset work out for you in fights. Once you are actually engaged in them?

 

[Tez3]

What mindset do they have with these fights?

A fair bit of alcohol, glee, a great deal of enjoyment and an unquenchable belief in themselves and their mates.
No wonder our ex-soldiers are looking for a fight | Barbara Ellen

 

[DaveB]

You can yell survival mindset at someone all you want but they are not going to develop one unless they are exposed to hardship.

Otherwise fighting is fighting. If you are getting punched in the head it does not matter how you got there.

If while you are being punched in the head your mind set is on how much you don't want to be there you will be at more risk of being bashed.

You need to equip your mind to switch from being a polite reasonable person to unleashing hell on a guy. And to do this you need to experience it. And not have to make up the difference between fighting and training with intent.

Especially in self defence where you have already lost momentum.

I agree with everything you wrote bar your first sentence. Trouble is nothing you have written about requires the competitive mindset. All of ithhas well established training methods that avoid competitiveness but still work to foster aggression and will.

Your writing is disingenuous. Everyone on this thread has agreed to the methods required to develop effective skills, so we're not sacrificing anything; we do not avoid hardship by avoiding competitiveness, we avoid selfishness and narrow focus. Furthermore competitiveness may well be fostered in other areas of training where it is more welcome. Like competition.

The question is do we need it for self-defense? Clearly the answer is no since not one thing you describe is directly associated with competitiveness.

And no, self-defense and fighting are not the same mentally even when they are the same physically.

 

[Zero]

You need to equip your mind to switch from being a polite reasonable person to unleashing hell on a guy. And to do this you need to experience it. And not have to make up the difference between fighting and training with intent.

How many self defense situations have you been in and, separately, where there may be multiple assailents becoming involved?

How many serious unsanctioned street fights have you been in? I mean serious fights outside of the ring where someone is trying to hurt you?