Questioning the efficacy of Kata

[drop bear]

Probably not. They knew they were risking their lives in order to protect others and themselves. If they had died in the attempt, they still might have given someone else the chance to take down the gunman or to get away. If they hadn't made the attempt, they could still have been killed. Sometimes there are no really safe options.

And the no really safe options is the point there. Sometimes life has risk.

 

[Zero]

On the flip side we had those soldiers in France who stopped that terrorist. Had that gone wrong then we would have said they should have done something different.

Crikey, I see these as two scenarios worlds apart from each other, the facts are very different and call for different actions/responses.

Some guy (you don't know if armed/unarmed) tears off in your car and you still have your boxing gloves on (giving you limited hand use outside of boxing glove punches) and you run up and confront them through the window. That is not needed. There will/should be car insurance, you can report to cops, etc. No need to get directly involved. Kind of like handing over your wallet rather than fighting to death over it, aside from a few dollars (that are often also insured these days), your banks and credit card agents will cover any loss.

Some guy racks an automatic rifle (= bad, bad intentions for all) in the carriage you and your mates are in, go for broke. That may save you and everyone else, or you (and everyone else) may still die, go for it. Or plunge through the carriage door into next compartment, jump from train etc. You may get out, others and your friends/family may not - that's your individual choice, you need to live with it, it may be the right choice for you...

 

[RTKDCMB]

View attachment 19476

You do realize that picture is not actually evidence of anything other than you have access to a shirt with 'Security' written on it right?

Security Polo Shirt | eBay

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Crikey, I see these as two scenarios worlds apart from each other, the facts are very different and call for different actions/responses.

Some guy (you don't know if armed/unarmed) tears off in your car and you still have your boxing gloves on (giving you limited hand use outside of boxing glove punches) and you run up and confront them through the window. That is not needed. There will/should be car insurance, you can report to cops, etc. No need to get directly involved. Kind of like handing over your wallet rather than fighting to death over it, aside from a few dollars (that are often also insured these days), your banks and credit card agents will cover any loss.

Some guy racks an automatic rifle (= bad, bad intentions for all) in the carriage you and your mates are in, go for broke. That may save you and everyone else, or you (and everyone else) may still die, go for it. Or plunge through the carriage door into next compartment, jump from train etc. You may get out, others and your friends/family may not - that's your individual choice, you need to live with it, it may be the right choice for you...

Some years ago I went through a series of street survival seminars put on by a friend/training partner of mine who was a long-time cop. 90-95% of the training was scenario-based. One of the big takeaways was figuring out when physical action was necessary and when it could get you in bigger trouble. Often there were enough clues so that if you were just calmly analyzing after the fact it was easy to figure out the best course of action. However under the stress of even a play-acted scenario it was common for people to choose wrongly when making a snap decision under pressure. It helped me appreciate a) the value of having an appropriate mental script ready to run and b) the dangers of having a mental script prepared that was inappropriate for the situation.

 

[JowGaWolf]

However under the stress of even a play-acted scenario it was common for people to choose wrongly when making a snap decision under pressure.

This usually happens when people base their self-defense plan on something that's out of their reach. They play a scenario in their mind that doesn't take into account of the abilities of an attacker. The only thing that should be involved in a self defense plan is the lay of the land. The rest of your plan should consist of analyzing the current situation and staying calm.

I tell women that they should always use the reflection from the parked cars in the parking lot like a mirror so that they can track what's going on behind them. I also tell them if they can't run far and very fast, and still have energy left to fight just in case the attacker catches them, then they need to be looking at their environment to see what they can use to keep some distance between them in the attacker. If I can't run far or fast then maybe the only thing I really need to do is run fast enough to get to a car or some kind of structure where I can keep my attacker on one side of the and me on the other and yell for help. If there are no cars then use a tree, if there's no tree, then find something that can be used as a weapon. Once people start thinking like this they begin to change how they move about their environment. Most people get attacked in environments that they know very well but the person never thought to take that into consideration in relation to self-defense.

 

[DaveB]

Dropbear, you should look up John Titchen and his DART training school. He runs some impressive looking scenario based day sessions for all comers. I've never had the pleasure but they look like the ideal testing ground.

I think he has some videos on YouTube.

 

[drop bear]

You do realize that picture is not actually evidence of anything other than you have access to a shirt with 'Security' written on it right?

Security Polo Shirt | eBay

Different shirt.

 

[drop bear]

Crikey, I see these as two scenarios worlds apart from each other, the facts are very different and call for different actions/responses.

Some guy (you don't know if armed/unarmed) tears off in your car and you still have your boxing gloves on (giving you limited hand use outside of boxing glove punches) and you run up and confront them through the window. That is not needed. There will/should be car insurance, you can report to cops, etc. No need to get directly involved. Kind of like handing over your wallet rather than fighting to death over it, aside from a few dollars (that are often also insured these days), your banks and credit card agents will cover any loss.

Some guy racks an automatic rifle (= bad, bad intentions for all) in the carriage you and your mates are in, go for broke. That may save you and everyone else, or you (and everyone else) may still die, go for it. Or plunge through the carriage door into next compartment, jump from train etc. You may get out, others and your friends/family may not - that's your individual choice, you need to live with it, it may be the right choice for you...

The point is what happened. Happened. You can't accurately armchair the situation you were not in because there is too much unpredictability.

OK. We will use this one.

Victorian man jailed over 'unprovoked' one-punch death of David Cassai - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

And say something monstrously duchebaggy and claim that if he had not tried to deescalate and instead acted aggressively he would be alive today.

I could probably find enough example to support a whole system based on not deescalating. And therefore why you should buy my method and not someone else's.

But it relies on me armchair commandoing a whole bunch of scenarios I wasn't in. And couldn't possibly solve.

And we are back to inflating egos

 

[JowGaWolf]

Why is it that people on this site can't accept what others say about their lives and move on. Seriously, is this what the martial arts community has come down to?

 

[drop bear]

Dropbear, you should look up John Titchen and his DART training school. He runs some impressive looking scenario based day sessions for all comers. I've never had the pleasure but they look like the ideal testing ground.

I think he has some videos on YouTube.

As opposed to just being attacked by drunk duchebags every weekend.

You will be pleased to know two days ago I deescalated an unhinged homeless guy who was at one stage up and throwing air crescent kicks at me.

We even fist bumped at the end of it.

(Having said that if he had gone me I was going to belt him with a torch I had concealed so I had both bases covered)

 

[drop bear]

Dropbear, you should look up John Titchen and his DART training school. He runs some impressive looking scenario based day sessions for all comers. I've never had the pleasure but they look like the ideal testing ground.

I think he has some videos on YouTube.

Why does the other guy run off all the time? I mean it it 2 on 2 and you bugger off leaving your mate to get bashed.

Survival mentality?

Anyway. That scenario is competitive. You put people in a position were both sides are trying to win.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

That is one of John Titchen's reality based scenario videos. Good stuff! As to why one guy left that actually may be the Scenario they are working on when your friends deserts you.

 

[drop bear]

That is one of John Titchen's reality based scenario videos. Good stuff! As to why one guy left that actually may be the Scenario they are working on when your friends deserts you.

Or situational sparring. As we would call it. I have no major problem with the method.

I think you might be grasping with that explanation. Because I am not sure why you would bother. It would be more difficult and more productive to save the guy you are working with rather than run off on him.

If you wanted to have your friend run off. Don't include him in the first place.

But in any event it goes back to the original idea about competitive training.
(Now everybody split hairs about the terminology)

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Ahhh but in a Scenario there are unpredictable things happening. Meaning, his partner may know that his role is to run off but the other guy did not. So one minute he thinks it is two on two and the next he is by himself having to deal with that particular problem.

 

[drop bear]

Ahhh but in a Scenario there are unpredictable things happening. Meaning, his partner may know that his role is to run off but the other guy did not. So one minute he thinks it is two on two and the next he is by himself having to deal with that particular problem.

Unpredictable things happen anyway. Scripting unpredictability?

 

[Phobius]

Unpredictable things happen anyway. Scripting unpredictability?

And you somehow think that it was unpredictable for the guy jumping you on the streets?

"Why am I attacking you? Oh well, might as well continue!"

Nothing is fully unpredictable in terms of self defence. You should use the word "suprise" instead of unpredictability. In hindsight one can say it was unpredictable, while it occurs it must be suprise.

As for competitiveness, every second you continue to compete against your opponent the likelyhood of you ever getting home in one piece diminishes. At least where I live one common misstake is to think that guys around you will understand it is none of their business.

For whatever reason there are always some people that are interested in escalating a fight and/or join what they believe to be the winning side.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Different shirt.

Besides the point.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Scripting unpredictability?

It only needs to be unpredictable by one of the participants.

 

[DaveB]

As opposed to just being attacked by drunk duchebags every weekend.

You will be pleased to know two days ago I deescalated an unhinged homeless guy who was at one stage up and throwing air crescent kicks at me.

We even fist bumped at the end of it.

(Having said that if he had gone me I was going to belt him with a torch I had concealed so I had both bases covered)

It was simply a recommendation from one martial arts practitioner to another. Not meant to prove or dispute any point.

 

[drop bear]

And you somehow think that it was unpredictable for the guy jumping you on the streets?

"Why am I attacking you? Oh well, might as well continue!"

Nothing is fully unpredictable in terms of self defence. You should use the word "suprise" instead of unpredictability. In hindsight one can say it was unpredictable, while it occurs it must be suprise.

As for competitiveness, every second you continue to compete against your opponent the likelyhood of you ever getting home in one piece diminishes. At least where I live one common misstake is to think that guys around you will understand it is none of their business.

For whatever reason there are always some people that are interested in escalating a fight and/or join what they believe to be the winning side.

On good let's have another semantic argument about terminology.that will get to the heart of the matter.