Questioning the efficacy of Kata

[drop bear]

You don't understand do you? Your training partner can stop you, break your nose even but that isn't a 'loss', that's learning because next time you won't make the same mistakes. that's why you train. This win or lose thing is pure ego talking.

No ego is not technically loosing because reasons.

 

[drop bear]

You don't understand do you? Your training partner can stop you, break your nose even but that isn't a 'loss', that's learning because next time you won't make the same mistakes. that's why you train. This win or lose thing is pure ego talking.

Geoff Thompson doesn't talk about winning or losing, he has no time for that attitude in SD. Read all the article though.
Does Self-defence work? | Geoff Thompson Inspired


"One of the many things I have learned in my forty years of martial arts training, from working with masters and from following the deity of my own experience hard won is that self defence and martial arts are not the same thing. Sport MA and self defence are not the same thing either. And recreational training – twice a week at the local sports hall – certainly does not constitute a serious investment in real self protection.
When people talk martial art they think that they are automatically talking self defence but they are not. And when they talk self defence they believe that it is synonymous with martial art. Again, it is not. The two are very different, and they should be separated and taught as such.
There is nothing wrong with sport martial art, I love it, I am a big fan. And recreational training is better than no training at all. But if people are ever to survive a violent encounter on the pavement arena, it is imperative that they learn to distinguish between the two.
If you train twice a week in martial arts and think you are a serious player in self defence you’ll be in for a big shock when it kicks off outside the chippy on a Friday night. If your penchant is for sport martial arts (and all that it entails) and you think it automatically translates to the street you too will be in big trouble when the pub-warrior breaks your rules and twats you while your un-zipped at the communal troth, or turns up for round two at your work or your home with a hammer and a bad intent.
I must stipulate that I am not having a go at traditional arts, at sport or at the recreational player. I have a deep love for MA and for its practitioners but mine is the reality game so I have to honour the truth above all else. And my truth is not based on theory of folk law or how well I can make it happen in the dojo, it is based on vast experience in all things real. I have hurt many people to acquire this information over a long period of time. I am not proud of that. But I do hope that the reader might learn from my knowledge, so that they do not become a victim of violent crime, or the next digit on a home office statistic about unsolicited assault. Because it is not bad technique or even bad teaching that gets people killed in street encounters, it is denial.
People are in denial. With their art, with their ability and with reality its self.
You may well ask, what is the truth?
The truth is that real self defence in its concentrate is not and should not be about a physical response, as I will explain further into the article. When I teach self defence I may flirt around martial technique, and encourage people to invest in a core system, but the bulk of my teaching is in the art of avoidance. And if an encounter does by necessity become physical I teach and I preach the pre-emptive strike (attacking first). It is the only thing that works consistently. All the other stuff that you see, that you are taught or that you imagine might work ‘out there’ probably will not."

There is a whole bunch of Geoff Thompson stuff I disagree with or would slant differently though.

 

[drop bear]

What was that about sensei speak?

You're clearly not speaking from experience of Thompson and apparently you've never had a serious fight, so on what are you basing this nonsensical idea?

Oh.... like above. Just that basless throw out any sort of comment into the air and assume it is wisdom.

I was yelled at once. Does that count?

 

[Hanzou]

Is this the "invent your own karate facts" thread?

So are you saying that learning new kata, and breaking boards aren't standard requirements for belt testing in the vast majority of karate schools?

 

[Hanzou]

As usual, you make the mistake of assuming that just because YOU don't understand something, or that YOU don't learn a certain way, nobody does.

Kata was created to transfer techniques in the absence of written material or an instructor. For all intents and purposes it's an obsolete practice, made all the more obvious by the difference between kata karate and fighting karate.

And yet, I teach forms, and board breaking, and one steps, and we're absolutely not a "belt factory". And most students learn just fine.

Don't project your own deficiencies onto others.

I would say that the deficiency is wasting time on outmoded methods. The only true purpose of those methods is to line pockets at testing time.

Unless you really believe that breaking a bunch of boards makes you a better striker.

 

[DaveB]

Oh.... like above. Just that basless throw out any sort of comment into the air and assume it is wisdom.

I was yelled at once. Does that count?

The question was, on what are you basing the statement that Thompson is afraid of conflict?

The reference to sensei speak was to point out that this statement fits your own description of a baseless assumption. The reference to your lack of experience with both Thompson and fighting was based on your own posts.

 

[DaveB]

So are you saying that learning new kata, and breaking boards aren't standard requirements for belt testing in the vast majority of karate schools?

From what I've seen board breaking is pretty rare in karate and not normally a testing requirement. Things might be different in the US.
Kata is a common testing requirement, but your statement was that these things were introduced into the art for spurious reasons and that is false. You've already given a more correct reason for kata in a post above, so why waste time defending your nonsense.

So you don't think kata is an efficient way to train. Fine, but you only hurt your argument by filling it with bile and misinformation.

And while you don't like it, I personally think that kata is an excellent training tool when utilised properly. They combine a useful adaptable coordination exercise that supports and helps develop a range of fighting techniques, with a mental tool to help students expand on lessons taught, as well as a reference guide for combat strategies and tactics.

The differences between different types of karate are nothing to do with the kata.

Just because you disagree with a particular method is no reason to assume negative motives for those who disagree with you. You don't and can't know what is in the minds of others, you are talking out of your bottom.

 

[Tez3]

So I am not sure where this difference really is created if sport people can do it as well.

Really not sure what you are trying to say here, why shouldn't sports people be able to do what?

 

[Tez3]

From what I've seen board breaking is pretty rare in karate and not normally a testing requirement.

I've not seen it done it karate and never at a testing. I believe the TKD people do it and from what I've read have good reasons for doing so but I've never broken boards.

 

[RTKDCMB]

For all intents and purposes it's an obsolete practice,

Maybe you think that If you keep saying that it may become true eventually.

The only true purpose of those methods is to line pockets at testing time.

Only if the school is a McDojo.

Unless you really believe that breaking a bunch of boards makes you a better striker.

Your inability to understand something is not an argument against it.

 

[RTKDCMB]

I believe the TKD people do it and from what I've read have good reasons for doing so but I've never broken boards.

I can't speak for other TKD styles but in mine board breaking is only a part of the testing requirements for black belt gradings.

 

[Phobius]

No ego is not technically loosing because reasons.

If you are in a scenario where you win during training you lose since you have not much to learn from that opponent. Unless you help your opponent improve there is not much more he can do for you and you need to switch partner. You are both losing in that case.

In training scenario both you and your partner should instead be focused on doing everything you can to help the other person win his fight fairly.

When the boat has too many holes to bring you across the river without sinking you first fix the holes in the boat before trying to reach the other side.

(Not meant to argue with anyone in this debate, simply wanting to add another view to the whole win/lose type discussion. Many times people mean the same thing but word them differently.)

 

[drop bear]

Really not sure what you are trying to say here, why shouldn't sports people be able to do what?

They are not street fighters or experienced bouncers. Just technically proficient martial artists. Who when engaged in real world violence do OK.

It shouldn't work because the gym dosent translate to the street or something.

 

[drop bear]

The question was, on what are you basing the statement that Thompson is afraid of conflict?

The reference to sensei speak was to point out that this statement fits your own description of a baseless assumption. The reference to your lack of experience with both Thompson and fighting was based on your own posts.

He has said it.

Based on my posts is a terrible answer. It is too vague. Based on my posts could be anything.

 

[Tez3]

They are not street fighters or experienced bouncers. Just technically proficient martial artists. Who when engaged in real world violence do OK.

It shouldn't work because the gym dosent translate to the street or something.

Sorry still doesn't make sense. A lot of people do fine translating what they learn in martial arts into how to defend themselves especially those taught by instructors who know what they are doing, a surprising amount of instructors are doormen or who have done door work.

 

[drop bear]

If you are in a scenario where you win during training you lose since you have not much to learn from that opponent. Unless you help your opponent improve there is not much more he can do for you and you need to switch partner. You are both losing in that case.

In training scenario both you and your partner should instead be focused on doing everything you can to help the other person win his fight fairly.

When the boat has too many holes to bring you across the river without sinking you first fix the holes in the boat before trying to reach the other side.

(Not meant to argue with anyone in this debate, simply wanting to add another view to the whole win/lose type discussion. Many times people mean the same thing but word them differently.)

Competition is a pretty integral part of a lot of training. And has been used since martial arts were invented.

 

[drop bear]

Sorry still doesn't make sense. A lot of people do fine translating what they learn in martial arts into how to defend themselves especially those taught by instructors who know what they are doing, a surprising amount of instructors are doormen or who have done door work.

You don't need ten years of bouncing to be a good fighter.or teach self defence.

 

[Tez3]

You don't need ten years of bouncing to be a good fighter.or teach self defence.

Not saying you do, from what you were saying though you seem to think that martial arts instructors can only do sport not self defence. It's a muddled argument.

I'm beginning to think you aren't sure about what you are saying. When you say competition is an integral part of martial arts training that's making a big generalisation. Some take part in competitions so train for that, some have nothing whatsoever to do with any type of competition other may compete in sparring comps but your idea of competing while training is off, there's no reason to compete, it's not beneficial to training if that's all you are focusing on, it makes you a bad training partner.

As for being 'afraid' of conflict, no sane person would think conflict is something to be welcomed, something to enjoy. There are those who do enjoy physical altercations ( not competitions) and they really aren't the sort of human beings one wants to meet or have anything to do with...ever.

 

[Phobius]

Competition is a pretty integral part of a lot of training. And has been used since martial arts were invented.

I dont really want to object but do you know this for certain? If you do, can you share the origin of such facts? While it may sound as if I doubt your facts the truth is that if this can be verified as truth it would be very interesting.

It is still my belief that if you wish to compete with fellow students then you will not give them the help they need to improve their methods, as such they will not be able to help you improve either. Two people can do sparring, but neither will improve much unless both do.

All training needs to be done with intent, but the intent should not be to win in my opinion but to make their opponent better than themselves. When your opponent starts sharing same goal that is when you will both progress faster.

 

[Hanzou]

I dont really want to object but do you know this for certain? If you do, can you share the origin of such facts? While it may sound as if I doubt your facts the truth is that if this can be verified as truth it would be very interesting.

It is still my belief that if you wish to compete with fellow students then you will not give them the help they need to improve their methods, as such they will not be able to help you improve either. Two people can do sparring, but neither will improve much unless both do.

All training needs to be done with intent, but the intent should not be to win in my opinion but to make their opponent better than themselves. When your opponent starts sharing same goal that is when you will both progress faster.

Drop Bear is correct. Competition has been in MA for a long time.

Here's just one form of it;
Lei tai - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia