Questioning the efficacy of Kata

[Tez3]

More food for thought, Bunkai exponent Iain Abernethy talking to Geoff Thompson (they are both part of British Combat Assoc)
http://www.iainabernethy.co.uk/article/interview-iain-abernethy-geoff-thompson-october-2000

 

[Hanzou]

Ok, first off, a qualifier: I know this is an old question/ discussion... and I'm sorry for raising an old hat question, but I'd like to join the discussion and phrase this in my own words....

Question: Does traditional karate utilize effective teaching methods for self-defense in comparison to styles that don't utilize traditional methods?

If you're talking about kata and that one step nonsense, then no.

There's plenty of effective striking arts that don't use kata at all, and frankly I would say that they're more effective than traditional karate styles. Kata is like board breaking; It's a device put in place to reinforce the belt factory.

 

[DaveB]

Kata is like board breaking; It's a device put in place to reinforce the belt factory.

Is this the "invent your own karate facts" thread?

 

[Dirty Dog]

If you're talking about kata and that one step nonsense, then no.

As usual, you make the mistake of assuming that just because YOU don't understand something, or that YOU don't learn a certain way, nobody does.

There's plenty of effective striking arts that don't use kata at all, and frankly I would say that they're more effective than traditional karate styles. Kata is like board breaking; It's a device put in place to reinforce the belt factory.

And yet, I teach forms, and board breaking, and one steps, and we're absolutely not a "belt factory". And most students learn just fine.

Don't project your own deficiencies onto others.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Is this the "invent your own karate facts" thread?

I do kung fu, but from your question I guess things have really gotten crazy in reference to karate

 

[JowGaWolf]

I teach forms, and board breaking, and one steps, and we're absolutely not a "belt factory"

I'm sooooo glad to hear someone say that they are not a "belt factory." I really hate when some martial arts places give belts out like candy and mislead students by making it seem that having the black belt means that you can fight and do self-defense. Very few focus on making sure that students learn the martial art, the applications, and have the conditioning that is actually required to successfully apply a technique in a real self-defense situation.

It's nice to meet someone that puts the focus on the martial art and not the belt.

I remember as a kid when I took karate, the karate that they were teaching in the school was useless for real fighting. I remember how disappointed I was when I got into a real fight and discovered that even though the instructor said that my kicks were powerful they still weren't powerful enough to keep my attacker off me. I also remember when I stopped going to karate classes when I was a yellow belt, then a year later the karate school called up and wanted me to test for my green belt. I was fortunate to understand as a kid that the karate school I was taking was a belt factory.

Dirty Dog thanks for not being a belt factory.

 

[Tez3]

A good many places aren't belt factories, sadly though there are some and if you are unfortunate to be in one it's not good BUT that doesn't mean all places are like that, that 'karate' is useless and pointless. Karate itself is only a generic term, there are many types of karate. The karateka Geoff Thompson talks about are giants of karate, they would no more give you a belt for attendance than they would ski down a mountain naked with a rose between their teeth.
It seems sad enough that one has a bad experience in karate but to compound that by then judging all karate and karateka as useless is a real shame. To constantly bash karate speaks of a lacking on the part of the poster not the lack of skills in karate.

 

[JowGaWolf]

It seems sad enough that one has a bad experience

It's not just my experience, I just didn't want to bore anyone with the experiences of others who have said similar things based off their experience. I've heard it from parents, students, and instructors. I noticed that you are in England so it may be different there, but in the U.S. that is the sad state of things. Here we have kids at the age 9 and 10 with black belts.

 

[Tez3]

It's not just my experience, I just didn't want to bore anyone with the experiences of others who have said similar things based off their experience. I've heard it from parents, students, and instructors. I noticed that you are in England so it may be different there, but in the U.S. that is the sad state of things. Here we have kids at the age 9 and 10 with black belts.

The problem is though that people are equating the deficiencies of schools and instructors with karate itself. It's not karate that is at fault it's the people. It's like being a bad driver, crashing and blaming the make of car instead of looking to where the fault lies. "Don't drive Fords because they drive into trees!"
Karate, kata, sparring like most things is best in the hands of competent, knowledgeable people.

 

[Dirty Dog]

It's not just my experience, I just didn't want to bore anyone with the experiences of others who have said similar things based off their experience. I've heard it from parents, students, and instructors. I noticed that you are in England so it may be different there, but in the U.S. that is the sad state of things. Here we have kids at the age 9 and 10 with black belts.

The issue of the baby black belt is a whole 'nother can of worms, and discussed in a number of other threads.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Tez3
Don't get me wrong. I'm not judging all karate and karateka. I'm specifically talking about the schools that just hand out belts so long as you pay for the testing. TKD schools have a similar problem as well. This problem is common with martial arts that use belts. I know it's a problem because customers will go to a kung fu school that they are interested in, but won't join because the kung fu school doesn't have a belt. Kung Fu schools often get these two questions.
1. Do you have /use a belt system?
2. How do you know who is better if you don't use belts?
I've met a lot of people who think Karate, Karateka, and kung fu are the same thing. Because of things like this
Korean Kung Fu Cumming Ga - Choe's Hapkido
And this
Kung Fu Cumming

If you don't have any of these problems in your country or in the area that you live in, then consider yourself very fortunate.

 

[Tez3]

I don't really want to wander off into a discussion about belts, I get my wrist slapped by mods enough as it is lol! There is a place for them though in martial arts I believe.
People with no knowledge of martial arts and without anyone to guide them in finding a place to train want the assurance of a belt system because they feel it shows advancement and experience, they have nothing to judge it by otherwise. The 'mystique' of having a black belt is strong even among quite experienced martial artists. The general public judge by results and those results are belts.

My comments about judging karate by a bad experience wasn't aimed at you but to a poster who manifests his disdain for karate at every opportunity.

 

[Steve]

The problem is though that people are equating the deficiencies of schools and instructors with karate itself. It's not karate that is at fault it's the people. It's like being a bad driver, crashing and blaming the make of car instead of looking to where the fault lies. "Don't drive Fords because they drive into trees!"
Karate, kata, sparring like most things is best in the hands of competent, knowledgeable people.

Sometimes it is the car, though. We've seen massive recalls due to fundamental defects in the sidewalls of tires causing them to rupture at freeway speeds. We've seen recalls related to fundamental flaws related to loss of brakes, steering columns locking up and all manner of other issues.

Sometimes, it's the driver. Sometimes, it's the car. Sometimes, it's the martial artist. But sometimes, it's the martial art. I think your metaphor is more spot on than you might have thought.

 

[ballen0351]

I would say that they're more effective than traditional karate styles. .

Whats your method of evaluation?

 

[DaveB]

Never the art, always the person or the training .

The art doesn't exist without a person to do it.
The art is distinct from the training methods one uses to ingrain it.

 

[Drose427]

I do kung fu, but from your question I guess things have really gotten crazy in reference to karate

Hanzou believes his experience with Karate at his school is representative of all TMA's,

he's fairly stubborn, and its caused some consternation in the past on the forums

 

[Drose427]

Sometimes it is the car, though. We've seen massive recalls due to fundamental defects in the sidewalls of tires causing them to rupture at freeway speeds. We've seen recalls related to fundamental flaws related to loss of brakes, steering columns locking up and all manner of other issues.

Sometimes, it's the driver. Sometimes, it's the car. Sometimes, it's the martial artist. But sometimes, it's the martial art. I think your metaphor is more spot on than you might have thought.

While I agree to an extent (Im not gonna recommend Kendo or a Bujinkan for folks trying to get into MMA, although I love both styles) we've seen this particular car (karate) and various models of it used in a myriad of Full contact arenas successfully

Which shows it can be successful. As long as you're not doing kata all class, which most classes wont anyways

PS, you went and changed your picture on me and I assumed you were a new Steve......You sly dog, you

 

[JowGaWolf]

Steve
That goes back to the quality of the kata. I can only assume that it's the same with karate, but if a Kung Fu instructor teaches the form incorrectly then the student won't learn the form or the technique. Then when it comes to an actual fight then none of what was learn will work as it should. As far as kata goes, I know I've seen plenty of unqualified instructors do a kata so poorly that even I can tell that it's done wrong. For example these guys are doing a form called Si Ping Kuen. I know for a fact that Sei Ping Kyuen is kung fu. More specifically it's the beginner form in Jow Ga Kung Fu which normally wouldn't be a problem with the exception that these guys aren't kung fu and what they are doing isn't kung fu nor is it karate. Learning any of the kata from these two videos will guarantee that you won't have the correct application.

and This Guy

 

[JowGaWolf]

You can't learn good karate from bad kata.

 

[drop bear]

Sorry? You are joking right? that man does not have a fear of conflict, trust me. You are kidding yourself if you think he is afraid of fighting or hurting people because he certainly has hurt a lot of people in his time. He is old school bouncer from a very tough area of the UK and had a rep as a very violent man long before he became known for his SD. I think you need to do a bit more research about him.

And fear of loosing is different.

Regardless I trained with rob gruifida and Derek hekel who in their increadably short bouncing careers bashed guys in their fives and tens.

So I am not sure where this difference really is created if sport people can do it as well.