Questioning the efficacy of Kata

[drop bear]

It was simply a recommendation from one martial arts practitioner to another. Not meant to prove or dispute any point.

No dramas.

 

[ShotoNoob]

From the patronising "sigh" I presume you magic all your knowledge from the air. The rest of us who aren't so lucky do need to find people qualified in or experienced enough to codify knowledge in a given field. The first two in the fields of Self Defense and Martial arts to pop in my head are linked below.
WELCOME TO GEOFF THOMPSON.COM
Home.

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I figured this was the character / org behind the Britain-sourced commentary. Really a kyo karate-like philosophy. Not a Gichin Funakoshi type @ all. Also has a big axe to grind.

 

[Tez3]

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I figured this was the character / org behind the Britain-sourced commentary. Really a kyo karate-like philosophy. Not a Gichin Funakoshi type @ all. Also has a big axe to grind.

I really think you should keep opinions about someone you don't know, haven't trained with and have very little idea about to yourself because in this case your 'opinion' is offensive.
Geoff is a karateka, from Shotokan, and does not have an axe to grind far from it, he has made peace with himself and with the world long ago. He is an extremely good instructor, good company and a great guy to know. As you don't you should probably not pass facile and pointless comments about him. Critique his work by all means, he welcomes that but to say he is not a 'Funakoshi' type is laughable because you certainly aren't either. If you are going to attack other's then please do it to their faces, he has an email address I would be happy to pass on to you and you can tell him your thoughts instead on plastering nonsense on the internet.

 

[Zero]

The point is what happened. Happened. You can't accurately armchair the situation you were not in because there is too much unpredictability.

OK. We will use this one.

Victorian man jailed over 'unprovoked' one-punch death of David Cassai - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

And say something monstrously duchebaggy and claim that if he had not tried to deescalate and instead acted aggressively he would be alive today.

I could probably find enough example to support a whole system based on not deescalating. And therefore why you should buy my method and not someone else's.

But it relies on me armchair commandoing a whole bunch of scenarios I wasn't in. And couldn't possibly solve.

And we are back to inflating egos

But de-escalation is only one part of the SD tool kit/package. This "competitive mind set approach", if I understand how you are seeing it, does not readily lend itself to being anywhere in the SD tool kit, there are far better approaches, for both avoiding problems and for going head-on with a problem if it is unavoidable.

Maybe it is all just semantics and you are grouping a lot of other mental approaches under this "competitive" umbrella. And I think you have acknowledged that in some situations a more placatory or disarming approach (while remaining absolutely aware/keyed), ie "de-escalation" does have its place. Right? Otherwise almost every confrontation, bump, or half drunk fool in a pub one was faced with would end in fists thrown.

So maybe, we are just looking at this from more extreme and differing ends of the same equation.

 

[Zero]

Unpredictable things happen anyway. Scripting unpredictability?

For sure, as said by others, this could be used in training in clubs. I don't remember coming across it. But why not? All you do is don't let one guy in on the full script. Sounds like fun!! (It would be a bit sick but would be a laugh if you actually had your supposed mate turn on you and join in the melee with your assailants!)

It can be a shock when you are out, and generally when young, with a few mates to find out who the more likely one to leg it is when faced with a hairy situation. Sometimes those you would think who are decent enough sport fighters will exit left and leave you with reduced numbers.

 

[Tez3]

All you do is don't let one guy in on the full script. Sounds like fun!! (It would be a bit sick but would be a laugh if you actually had your supposed mate turn on you and join in the melee with your assailants!)

Sounds like training with our lot, they do it all the time to their mates. It doesn't seem planned suddenly they are all on one guy, quite disturbing if you didn't know what they are like.
When they are out together though they never leave their mates come what may, never.

 

[ShotoNoob]

I really think you should keep opinions about someone you don't know, haven't trained with and have very little idea about to yourself because in this case your 'opinion' is offensive.
Geoff is a karateka, from Shotokan, and does not have an axe to grind far from it, he has made peace with himself and with the world long ago. He is an extremely good instructor, good company and a great guy to know. As you don't you should probably not pass facile and pointless comments about him. Critique his work by all means, he welcomes that but to say he is not a 'Funakoshi' type is laughable because you certainly aren't either. If you are going to attack other's then please do it to their faces, he has an email address I would be happy to pass on to you and you can tell him your thoughts instead on plastering nonsense on the internet.

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And you're spot on example with what I'm saying.... Just look at the ego explosion....

 

[drop bear]

But de-escalation is only one part of the SD tool kit/package. This "competitive mind set approach", if I understand how you are seeing it, does not readily lend itself to being anywhere in the SD tool kit, there are far better approaches, for both avoiding problems and for going head-on with a problem if it is unavoidable.

Maybe it is all just semantics and you are grouping a lot of other mental approaches under this "competitive" umbrella. And I think you have acknowledged that in some situations a more placatory or disarming approach (while remaining absolutely aware/keyed), ie "de-escalation" does have its place. Right? Otherwise almost every confrontation, bump, or half drunk fool in a pub one was faced with would end in fists thrown.

So maybe, we are just looking at this from more extreme and differing ends of the same equation.

Why can't a competitive mindset deescalate?

You just set the rules that if you don't fight you win.

The non competitive band wagon becomes this idea that you can either not pressure test of half test ideas. Because competition does not work in S.D.

And it is a misconception.

So we do a S. D. And you do a drill where they throw one punch and then stand there and collapse. Compliant and ego stroking.


You do a drill where you put in a token effort to attack the guy but ultimately loose due to an expectation that they should be successful in the technique they are learning. Semi compliant and ego stroking.(this is where I would place intent)

You do a drill where you attempt to attack the guy to conclusion. Their defence either works or it dosent. This is competitive.

For self defence to need to train all three methods.

Removal of the final component will make it appear that you have learned the technique. It is quicker and more personally satisfying. But it removes a vital aspect of self defence.

So by black belt level you still can't do the technique properly.

Actually ignore that one. Here is a much better example.
"Come on guys don't let them get back up" facepalm.

 

[Tez3]

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And you're spot on example with what I'm saying.... Just look at the ego explosion....

What on earth are you talking about? You bad mouth someone you don't know and then come out with this? It's attacking a poster, off topic and just weird.

 

[Zero]

Why can't a competitive mindset deescalate?

You just set the rules that if you don't fight you win.

This I like : )

The rest, I am still trying to follow and figure out where this is coming from:

The non competitive band wagon becomes this idea that you can either not pressure test of half test ideas. Because competition does not work in S.D.

And it is a misconception.

So we do a S. D. And you do a drill where they throw one punch and then stand there and collapse. Compliant and ego stroking.


You do a drill where you put in a token effort to attack the guy but ultimately loose due to an expectation that they should be successful in the technique they are learning. Semi compliant and ego stroking.(this is where I would place intent)

You do a drill where you attempt to attack the guy to conclusion. Their defence either works or it dosent. This is competitive.

For self defence to need to train all three methods.

Removal of the final component will make it appear that you have learned the technique. It is quicker and more personally satisfying. But it removes a vital aspect of self defence.

So by black belt level you still can't do the technique properly.

Actually ignore that one. Here is a much better example.
"Come on guys don't let them get back up" facepalm.

 

[drop bear]

This I like : )

The rest, I am still trying to follow and figure out where this is coming from:

Right back to the beginning of this thread. And the question asked. Why are black belts crap at self defence?

In theory they should know what they are doing. So then kata something something bunkai. An why that method fails the practitioner.

 

[Tez3]

Why are black belts crap at self defence?

That's a massive generalisation, ALL black belts, in every style in every country lol. No I don't think so.

 

[drop bear]

That's a massive generalisation, ALL black belts, in every style in every country lol. No I don't think so.

Why the black belts observed by the op are crap.

"The problem is that after years of training, I see a lot of black belts standing there with no clue what to do in response to the attack. I've had my moments of confusion too."

 

[Tez3]

Why the black belts observed by the op are crap.

Not my monkeys, not my circus, it's his problem.

 

[ballen0351]

Perhaps the ok needs to find better friends and training partners. I know plenty of good black belts. I know a few that are pretty bad as well. Has more to do with the person then it does the color of his belt

 

[drop bear]

Perhaps the ok needs to find better friends and training partners. I know plenty of good black belts. I know a few that are pretty bad as well. Has more to do with the person then it does the color of his belt

If you want to do a drill of any sort with enough realism to learn from it then it has to be done at a pace and resistance level where you don't always win.

Which by the way can be really frustrating.

Perhaps bloody this.

 

[drop bear]

Double post.

 

[Zero]

Why the black belts observed by the op are crap.

"The problem is that after years of training, I see a lot of black belts standing there with no clue what to do in response to the attack. I've had my moments of confusion too."

Yeah, true but I think it is a mix of what Ballen is saying more than anything, most times it comes down to the individual. You see great fighters (and if you are that way inclined, great kata exponents) at many clubs and right there alongside them are practitioners that may have been training for the same time or longer but whose skills, ability, focus, whatever, are markedly less (I certainly drag down the mean average weighting of any club I am at with respect to kata!!).

I agree that there are some clubs, where the entire class, class after class, is just rows of students lined up doing kata and simple air punching drills and marching up and down the room performing techniques with little or no one-on-one or direct input from the trainer. In those schools you might get a majority of students that are going to "fail"/freeze when confronted with a concerted attack or anything that is not controlled and scripted, unless the student is inherently/naturally equipped to deal with such (and some people are).

 

[RTKDCMB]

"I've had my moments of confusion too."

Most of them on this forum.

 

[drop bear]

Yeah, true but I think it is a mix of what Ballen is saying more than anything, most times it comes down to the individual. You see great fighters (and if you are that way inclined, great kata exponents) at many clubs and right there alongside them are practitioners that may have been training for the same time or longer but whose skills, ability, focus, whatever, are markedly less (I certainly drag down the mean average weighting of any club I am at with respect to kata!!).

I agree that there are some clubs, where the entire class, class after class, is just rows of students lined up doing kata and simple air punching drills and marching up and down the room performing techniques with little or no one-on-one or direct input from the trainer. In those schools you might get a majority of students that are going to "fail"/freeze when confronted with a concerted attack or anything that is not controlled and scripted, unless the student is inherently/naturally equipped to deal with such (and some people are).

The reason is that the technique is different. It is not just intent. The rules change at high intensity.

Judo is a good example. You see these static judo throws that look different resisted.