Putting the black belt on a pedestal

[Zero]

I think part of the problem is that the ranking system in Bjj is quite a bit different than the ranking systems of other martial arts. In Bjj, a blue belt is the equivalent of a black belt in a lot of styles. A Bjj purple belt is instructional level, and that's the equivalent of a second or third degree BB in many systems. Most people don't make it past blue, much less purple due to the requirement of time invested. Also the promotions can be a little wacky sometimes. Your instructor will just come in one day and give you a stripe and say congratulations. Sometimes your instructor doesn't promote you for a very long time. So yeah, if you make it to black, that's quite a accomplishment.

Then there's the expectations that come along with being a black belt. You're tested constantly by just about everyone. Tapping a black belt is a massive accomplishment in Bjj, and its everyone's dream from white to purple to tap one out. So you have a big target on your back, and if you get tapped, you lose respect. The last thing you want is to be the Bjj school that puts out soft black belts. As a Shotokan black belt, I never had to worry about anything like that. No one ever came into my dojo wanting to fight me or anything, and I never had to spar with lower belts who wanted to take my head off. However, in my time in Bjj my instructor or co-instructor have been challenged many times, and the entire school watches when it takes place.

So yeah, that's where my reasoning comes from.

??
I follow what you're saying but from a karate context and your comments on Shotokan, I can't really relate to your experience at all (which is fine, maybe your club was very different). As a bb in goju ryu and even when starting as a junior (having come across as quite a senior TKD practitioner) I was quite often fighting with people coming from other clubs (I too went to spar or at times "challenge" myself/them at different clubs, in fact the very reason I joined my goju club is that I was a good TKD tournament fighter and at this club got annihilated by the second sensei who I'd mistaken as just some old geezer, who was about the third person I fought with on the night).

When training or sparring with the lower belts and juniors in my club I always had to focus as they were always trying to "take my head off" - not in a personal way - but so to better themselves. Now and then a junior would throw a beautiful strike or kick after a great feint or the like and catch me a good one. Sometimes I was startled but we all had a laugh and full credit to them! Just as I would now and then manage to submit or get a point off the sensei.

No one lost any respect "loosing" to a lower level practitioner and no one was worried about that, everyone simply wants to perform to the best of their ability. I find it hard to believe that for some reason in bjj a senior loses respect for that?? Really? That's harsh and doesn't stack up a bit with the bjj, judo and jj guys (some quite senior) that would also train at our club from time to time and freestyle with us. Sure, it may be a bit questionable if they tap to a very junior student but weird stuff happens in MA right up to championship and world title level, sometimes the under-dog just gets lucky.

Would you lose respect for your instructor if she tapped out to someone better or "worse" than her?

 

[Tez3]

It may just be a lost in translation point. Not sure where you are from but now days the phrase "placing one on a pedestal" to an English speaker, at least in many Western countries, has certain connotations or implications that are not necessarily as favourable as a literal reading of those words. "Putting someone on a pedestal" can imply such person, while being good, does not necessarily merit such attention or being raised to such a level beyond that of others, in that they may actually be somewhat undeserving of being singled out.

I would say very few people actually deserve to be "metaphorically" put on a pedestal. Certainly not black belts per se and not simply for passing the bb examination. To be put on a pedestal with true merit in my mind this would be someone of the level of an Olympic medallist or a national/international level fighter (or kata exponent). Alternatively and away from competition, it would need to be someone very senior and/or accomplished in their martial art lineage or field. I have deep respect for my school sensei, who is 4th dan, but would not put him on a pedestal (and importantly, and this speaks volumes of the individual, he would probably in distaste try to bash me over the head with said metaphorical pedestal if I did!!). The head of the martial art system would be another matter.

Not sure if that helps at all?

I agree, the implications when one says they 'put someone on a pedestal' tends to mean someone is placed higher in regard than is actually merited. Usually the term 'feet of clay' comes into use with that.

As for the BJJ black belt, I know a couple and if they are tapped out they do not lose respect at all, if they do it speaks volumes about other people not them. I would say such peoples' respect isn't genuine in that case. Respect for the person who tapped them out will grow, admiration too probably but to lose respect for someone just because they have tapped, no way.

 

[Cirdan]

It is not a big deal to be tapped out by a lower ranked student, when rolling with white or yellow belts I often give them some extra opportunities to get me so they will learn and grow. The whole "I`ll loose respect in everyone`s eyes" is ego in it`s purest form and one should get rid of this as soon as possible.

 

[K-man]

I think part of the problem is that the ranking system in Bjj is quite a bit different than the ranking systems of other martial arts. In Bjj, a blue belt is the equivalent of a black belt in a lot of styles. A Bjj purple belt is instructional level, and that's the equivalent of a second or third degree BB in many systems. Most people don't make it past blue, much less purple due to the requirement of time invested. Also the promotions can be a little wacky sometimes. Your instructor will just come in one day and give you a stripe and say congratulations. Sometimes your instructor doesn't promote you for a very long time. So yeah, if you make it to black, that's quite a accomplishment.

Then there's the expectations that come along with being a black belt. You're tested constantly by just about everyone. Tapping a black belt is a massive accomplishment in Bjj, and its everyone's dream from white to purple to tap one out. So you have a big target on your back, and if you get tapped, you lose respect. The last thing you want is to be the Bjj school that puts out soft black belts. As a Shotokan black belt, I never had to worry about anything like that. No one ever came into my dojo wanting to fight me or anything, and I never had to spar with lower belts who wanted to take my head off. However, in my time in Bjj my instructor or co-instructor have been challenged many times, and the entire school watches when it takes place.

So yeah, that's where my reasoning comes from.

I think you have an inflated idea of relative ranking. A blue belt is the equivalent of other styles black belts and purple is equivalent to third dan. Yeah right. Each BJJ belt is a measure of your progress within BJJ. There is nothing to suggest that a purple belt is the same as a third dan belt in another style.

Brown belt typically requires at least five years of dedicated training to achieve.

The IBJJF requires that a student be at least 19 years old and recommends they have spent a minimum of 1 year ranked as a brown belt to be eligible for a black belt.
Brazilian jiu-jitsu ranking system - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Perhaps you could point out if this information is wrong. Here they are talking about a minimum of six years to black belt. That's about the same as for Aikido or Karate. Normally 18 months to go from brown to black in Karate, only 12 months for BJJ.

 

[Hanzou]

I think you have an inflated idea of relative ranking. A blue belt is the equivalent of other styles black belts and purple is equivalent to third dan. Yeah right. Each BJJ belt is a measure of your progress within BJJ. There is nothing to suggest that a purple belt is the same as a third dan belt in another style.

I'm simply talking about time spent in style. 8 years in many styles can easily put you in 2nd degree BB range. A lot of Bjj purples have been training for about that time. Hence why purples are allowed to teach classes.

Perhaps you could point out if this information is wrong. Here they are talking about a minimum of six years to black belt. That's about the same as for Aikido or Karate. Normally 18 months to go from brown to black in Karate, only 12 months for BJJ.

It isn't wrong, but that's the minimum requirement, not the average. Yeah, if you practice every day or are part of a competition team, you could definitely get your BB in Bjj in about six years. However, if you're going 2-3 times a week for a couple of hours, its can take considerably longer. Again, the promotion system in Bjj can get wacky.

Example;

 

[Hanzou]

Would you lose respect for your instructor if she tapped out to someone better or "worse" than her?

How worse are we talking? If he or she's rolling against a high level purple, and gets tapped, no problem. Some backyard wrestler off the street? Maybe.

 

[Zero]

I agree, the modern meaning of 'putting them o


I agree, the implications when one says they 'put someone on a pedestal' tends to mean someone is placed higher in regard than is actually merited. Usually the term 'feet of clay' comes into use with that.

As for the BJJ black belt, I know a couple and if they are tapped out they do not lose respect at all, if they do it speaks volumes about other people not them. I would say such peoples' respect isn't genuine in that case. Respect for the person who tapped them out will grow, admiration too probably but to lose respect for someone just because they have tapped, no way.

Oss!

 

[Danny T]

This thread, as a whole, is a good example of the diversity of rank/belts in the many different systems and even schools within the systems. There is no specific standard across the full spectrum and that can be confusing to those in the martial arts and even worse for those outside of it.
I have several students who have bbs in other systems training with our school now who say our bb's are more like 4th or 5th in their previous schools. I also have a couple of collegiate wrestlers (who have no rank), several bjjers from white to 2 bbs who also train with us. Their ground games are just as diverse as are their striking skills. However the non ranked wrestlers best the bbs just as much as the bbs best the wrestles with working their ground game. The rank here means nothing. When it comes to striking I have a few very low ranked practitioners who are gifted with heavy hands. Even with little training they simple hit hard, very hard and will become excellent strikers. Two are yellow sashes in our ranking that is about 12 months in and are more powerful punchers than many of the higher ranked students. The difference is in overall refinement vs skill in punching or power development. To us Rank means little, to us.
Respect, conditioning, attitude, heart, commitment, helpfulness is much more important.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Depends on the art really...

In Bjj it can take over a decade to reach a black belt, and you're fully expected to be able to demonstrate the skill of your rank constantly. Needless to say, black belts in Bjj are put on a pedestal, and its well deserved.

Does it take over a decade to go from white to black or from brown to black?

 

[Zero]

How worse are we talking? If he or she's rolling against a high level purple, and gets tapped, no problem. Some backyard wrestler off the street? Maybe.

Again, and no disrespect if I get this wrong, but your comments don't seem to imply much real world experience here. OK, appreciate what I should say is, that it does not reflect much, or any, of "my" experience.

How long have you been practicing bjj?

Have you ever competed in bjj and at what level?

I only ask to try and get a flavour of where you are coming from?

It's the backyard wrestlers off the street that come into the dojo which are the ones you often need to watch. Yes, you would expect a senior bjj or wrestling instructor through superior skill, endurance, fight discipline to overcome such a person. But it is the unknown quantities from other styles or off the street as you put it, that can surprise you or catch you off guard sometimes due to their unorthodox fighting style or irregular/unexpected (ie not doing what most bjj practitioners would do in response to such a move) responses. You should also know in fighting not to pre-judge a book by its cover.

Unless your implication that by being a "back-street wrestler" is that the individual is lacking in actual fighting ability and/or in physical capability?

You may be disappointed in your instructor if they patently underestimated this type and thus tapped out but to lose a fight to such may cause a few raised eyebrows but would not, I hope, lose respect in the eyes of your peers or club colleagues (...unless perhaps if each peer then went on to wipe the floor with the guy and with ease, again, that would raise some questions). More likely, I would expect them to have a laugh about what a handful said street brawler/wrestler was and possibly ask for a match-up themselves, provided he had fought "cleanly".

Now in a strike context, I would use the analogy of someone like Kimbo Slice or Lenny McLean in his prime coming into a striking club, any heavy weight practitioners in said club that were to mix it with them would need to be very cautious with such. There is more than likely an equivalent analogy with wrestlers.

 

[Danny T]

Does it take over a decade to go from white to black or from brown to black?

PhotonGuy look at post # 45. Hanzou has a time in grade listing that will answer your question.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

To address the BJJ black belt derail...

The IBJJF rules are for minimum time in rank and do not represent anything like typical progression.

The typical BJJ black belt is awarded for a degree of skill, knowledge, and sparring ability that a reasonably talented student with an above-average work ethic might reach in 10-15 years. I've been training BJJ for 12 years (2-3 days per week in the beginning, 4-6 days per week in recent years). I have a brown belt in the art and I estimate that I have at least a couple more years before receiving my black belt. (I'm somewhat hard working, but not particularly talented or athletic.)

BJJ promotions are heavily weighted towards proven ability on the mats. Some folks will never get their black belt even if they train for 20 years. On the other hand, you have the occasional phenomenal world-class athlete who trains full time and gets their black belt in under 5 years.

(You also have the practice of "sandbagging" in some academies which are focused on tournament competition. Coaches will hold off on promoting students for a long time until they have the chance to win a few tournaments in their division.)

There are schools in other arts which have similarly strict promotion guidelines, but they're not so common.

Hanzou's assertion regarding BJJ blue belt = other art's shodan is a little bit of a stretch. Maybe a BJJ blue belt at a particularly tough academy might represent an equivalent degree of time and effort as a black belt at a McDojang which hands out black belts to anyone who shows up regularly for a couple of years.

It's important to remember that different guidelines for promotions in different arts or schools has no particular bearing on the quality or toughness of training. It's just a matter of the label you put on things. In one school a student of average ability who trains hard for 5 years might be called a purple belt, in another they might be called a black belt, in another they might be called a second degree black belt, in another they might not be called anything at all. Whatever label you want to stick on them, they've still got whatever benefits that come from 5 years of hard work.

On the idea of losing respect for someone who gets tapped out, it has a lot to do with how you view the purpose of sparring. If you consider it as a test to prove who is better, then you'll get a lot of ego invested in not tapping. If you view it as a chance to learn, then you will get tapped a lot more often because you will be putting yourself in situations where you have the possibility of failure.

 

[drop bear]

??
I follow what you're saying but from a karate context and your comments on Shotokan, I can't really relate to your experience at all (which is fine, maybe your club was very different). As a bb in goju ryu and even when starting as a junior (having come across as quite a senior TKD practitioner) I was quite often fighting with people coming from other clubs (I too went to spar or at times "challenge" myself/them at different clubs, in fact the very reason I joined my goju club is that I was a good TKD tournament fighter and at this club got annihilated by the second sensei who I'd mistaken as just some old geezer, who was about the third person I fought with on the night).

When training or sparring with the lower belts and juniors in my club I always had to focus as they were always trying to "take my head off" - not in a personal way - but so to better themselves. Now and then a junior would throw a beautiful strike or kick after a great feint or the like and catch me a good one. Sometimes I was startled but we all had a laugh and full credit to them! Just as I would now and then manage to submit or get a point off the sensei.

No one lost any respect "loosing" to a lower level practitioner and no one was worried about that, everyone simply wants to perform to the best of their ability. I find it hard to believe that for some reason in bjj a senior loses respect for that?? Really? That's harsh and doesn't stack up a bit with the bjj, judo and jj guys (some quite senior) that would also train at our club from time to time and freestyle with us. Sure, it may be a bit questionable if they tap to a very junior student but weird stuff happens in MA right up to championship and world title level, sometimes the under-dog just gets lucky.

Would you lose respect for your instructor if she tapped out to someone better or "worse" than her?

there are bjj clubs that have issues with people tapping out their high belts. I know a few quality mmaers who have received the serious snooty for it.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

there are bjj clubs that have issues with people tapping out their high belts. I know a few quality mmaers who have received the serious snooty for it.

Yeah, these are people who have way too much of their self-esteem tied up in considering themselves at the top of some hierarchy. For anyone feeling the temptation to fall into that mindset, I would toss out a couple of reminders:

1) There are a lot of people in the world who have grappling skills besides high-ranking BJJers: wrestlers, judoka, sambists, shootfighters, MMAers, and many others. Even among individuals who don't have a high level of training, some have extraordinary physical attributes or natural talent.
2) Getting tapped is a learning opportunity, not a personal insult or an affront to your manhood.

 

[Danny T]

there are bjj clubs that have issues with people tapping out their high belts. I know a few quality mmaers who have received the serious snooty for it.

Been there. Still a white belt in bjj, but been wrestling and grappling since 14. Not a great wrestler but have been shunned several times when visiting other clubs. I always say I have some wrestling and some bjj having been doing it since 14. But being known more as a wing chun guy some seem to get their undies in a wad when I hold my own with them. Not all but some. And yes it's all ego.

 

[Zero]

there are bjj clubs that have issues with people tapping out their high belts. I know a few quality mmaers who have received the serious snooty for it.

From how you state that, I take it that it may be the club (or persons in the club) and not the actual quality mmaer who is tapped out, that take issue and get snooty. Perhaps that is understandable with all the commercial considerations that need to be taken into account for said club when the top fighter in their stable loses and particularly if loses to an under-dog (which actually happens quite a bit in MMA - UFC/StrikeForce and old Pride). Such a shame but no escaping the influence of ego and money on most everything.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Been there. Still a white belt in bjj, but been wrestling and grappling since 14. Not a great wrestler but have been shunned several times when visiting other clubs. I always say I have some wrestling and some bjj having been doing it since 14. But being known more as a wing chun guy some seem to get their undies in a wad when I hold my own with them. Not all but some. And yes it's all ego.

The real shame is that the guys who avoid working with you are depriving themselves of a great learning opportunity. Part of becoming a skilled grappler is working with as many kinds of training partners as possible: big, little, aggressive, patient, strong, flexible, explosive, technical, jiujiteiros, judoka, wrestlers, sambists, MMAers, untrained natural athletes, kung fu practioners, karateka, whoever. Everyone has their own strengths and weaknesses. The more experience with the more kinds of movement you can get, the better.

 

[Danny T]

The real shame is that the guys who avoid working with you are depriving themselves of a great learning opportunity. Part of becoming a skilled grappler is working with as many kinds of training partners as possible: big, little, aggressive, patient, strong, flexible, explosive, technical, jiujiteiros, judoka, wrestlers, sambists, MMAers, untrained natural athletes, kung fu practioners, karateka, whoever. Everyone has their own strengths and weaknesses. The more experience with the more kinds of movement you can get, the better.

A lot of truth there Tony.
Participated in a seminar (BJJ Revolution with Rodrigo Medeiros) about a month ago. While working on the associated drills he came up to me remarking asking, "what have you been training in an how long?" He had one of the purple belts come over to work with me. The guy was very respectful but it was apparent he didn't want to have to work with a white belt. He quickly realized my abilities were a bit more than he expected and we got along very well. Toward the end of the seminar several of the purples and browns were interested in rolling. Was an excellent experience for all. I was asked by Mederios to stay afterward for an extra short No Gi session. In all honesty I fared much better then without the gi. I do believe though had Medeiros not requested the purple belt work with me I would have been with the other whites and some blues the entire seminar and nor had the opportunity to work with the browns.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

A lot of truth there Tony.
Participated in a seminar (BJJ Revolution with Rodrigo Medeiros) about a month ago. While working on the associated drills he came up to me remarking asking, "what have you been training in an how long?" He had one of the purple belts come over to work with me. The guy was very respectful but it was apparent he didn't want to have to work with a white belt. He quickly realized my abilities were a bit more than he expected and we got along very well. Toward the end of the seminar several of the purples and browns were interested in rolling. Was an excellent experience for all. I was asked by Mederios to stay afterward for an extra short No Gi session. In all honesty I fared much better then without the gi. I do believe though had Medeiros not requested the purple belt work with me I would have been with the other whites and some blues the entire seminar and nor had the opportunity to work with the browns.

One of our sharper purple belts went to a big martial arts expo with multiple seminars by top instructors (in Las Vegas I think?) over the summer. He told me that for one of the no-gi sessions everybody except him was decked out in brand-name rashguards and gear, while he was just in an old t-shirt and gym shorts. For some reason this caused folks to initially think that he was a beginner who didn't know anything. People are silly sometimes.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Well, no, this is more in your head than anywhere else, I think It's a symptom of your unhealthy obsession with rank and has been commented on before.

If I do have an unhealthy obsession with rank Im dealing with it. How? By talking about it here.