Proper sequence of events?

[puunui]

So you don't want to listen to someone senior to you because their statement is different than your own.

And you don't want to listen to someone junior to you because their statment is different than your own.

Hmm...I see a common denomenator here.

Yes, the common denominator is you misreading my posts and trying to make them sound like something they are not. My comments had nothing to do with listening to seniors or juniors.

Anyway, back to the topic.

No, actually the topic is the proper sequence of events for martial arts X. Remember? But anyway.

You've given out over a 1000 KKW certificates, without testing the individuals, who weren't qualified at the time, and expressed no interest at the time in becoming qualified. You are just one person, of many that have followed this practice over the years.

Incorrect. It is true that I have recommended at least 1000 people for kukkiwon poom and dan promotion. It is incorrect that they weren't "qualified" at the time. I think the majority of recommendations were for kukkiwon certified teachers or those following the kukkiwon curriculum who were participating in USTU local, state and national events. However, they did not have sufficient rank to make their own recommendations, so they asked me to do it for them. You're confusing what we did in Hawaii for the totality of what happened. In any event, while "some" expressed no interest in learning those 8 taeguek poomsae initially, I think at this point, all have converted over. I see those people winning medals at USAT events, making both sparring and poomsae teams, becoming WTF International Referees, state presidents, etc. One, ronda sweet, even became USAT Chairman.

Over 90% of the black belts in the KKW are inside of Korea, most of which are children.

I don't know if 90% of the poom and dan holders still live in Korea. But even if that is true, most are not children, because there are more dan certificates issued than poom certificates. Check the numbers you yourself quoted above. There are twice as many dan holders as there are poom holders. And yes, I believe that there are many in the United States who are learning the kukkiwon curriculum but have not received kukkiwon certification. I and others are trying to help them, and you are trying to discourage I and others from fixing this situation.

Of the less than 10% of KKW black belts in the rest of the world, the majority are children.

No, sorry. There are twice as many dan holders as there are poom holders.

The KKW total membership is inflated by people that are no longer active.

There really is no kukkiwon "membership", other than having instructors register their schools, for free. There is no individual membership fees for the kukkiwon.

The KKW during the recent (and future?) 'special testings' don't require attendence at the actual test up to 3rd Dan.

Yes, the Kukkiwon considers 1st to 3rd Dan ranks to be low ranks, and therefore there is no need for attendance to a special test. The instructor's word is enough. You still have to have a Kukkiwon certified instructor sign the recommendation form and there has to be an explanation or reasons submitted as to why the candidate should be given the skip dan. The Kukkiwon is not interested in micromanaging practitioners. Maybe if the Kukkiwon had less than 100 or even 50 members, then it could be as strict as you would like, but it is not. It is a worldwide organization with members all over the world.

The KKW masters test at these events is one minute of sparring and two forms.

That's true, that has been the test since the very beginning from my understanding. GM Chuck Norris talks about his test in Korea, which was only one form and a minute of sparring. But the fact you left out is that the skip dan candidates were also required to take a two or three day poomsae seminar prior to the special test, and that many skip dan applicants did not complete that portion and never took their test. I think it was either 40 or 60% of the special test candidates either failed or did not complete the poomsae seminar and did not test.

One may skip up to 6 Dans in the KKW, as long as the highest three are paid for, in advance.

No, actually you have to pay the fees for all of the skipped ranks, not just the last three. And yes, you have to pay in advance, like any other testing situation in any other organization. You usually submit the testing fees at the time you submit your application. And if you fail, the Kukkiwon would refund your testing fees. The problem was, instead of forwarding test fees to Kukkiwon, they kept all of the testing fees except for one half of the highest dan fee. And when people failed, USAT was supposed to reimburse the failed candidates their portion, which they did not do.

This is factual and according to the numbers the KKW provides, as well as your statements on this board. So my simple question would be; What is the difference between the KKW and a belt factory?

Actually, none of your statements above are completely factual. Some have some facts, but most are incorrect.

But if you wish to consider the Kukkiwon to be a "belt factory", or if you wish to tell little johnny and his parents that he doesn't deserve his black belt or his kukkiwon certification because he is not 18, then be my guest. Shout it from the highest mountain until you are blue in the face, but it still won't put a dent in kukkiwon certification processing worldwide. If anything, kukkiwon certification is gaining momentum, from 1.8 million in 1987, to 4.6 million in 2001 to 7 million today.

 

[puunui]

That's impressive, but not sure how it's relevant. Regardless, be careful what you teach. To summarize the National Martial Art of Korea as merely a sport might be about as popular as referring to USA's Eagle as Tweety Bird. Let's also remember that your statement encompasses all practitioners of Taekwondo, not just the Kukkiwon.

I'm not the one calling taekwondo "merely a sport". I don't believe that taekwondo is "merely a sport". I am not against you or what you are trying to do with your taekwondo, and frankly, I have no idea why you think that I do, other than the fact that you came into the discussion in the middle. The one who is calling the american eagle tweety is kong soo do. He is the one who is calling the kukkiwon a belt mill, and if he had his way, your kids wouldn't have kukkiwon certification until they are 18 years old. What is your position on those comments?

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Yes, the common denominator is you misreading my posts and trying to make them sound like something they are not. My comments had nothing to do with listening to seniors or juniors.

I suppose I could agree with you, but then we'd both be wrong :uhyeah:

No, actually you have to pay the fees for all of the skipped ranks, not just the last three.

Not according to the Las Vegas flyer. But it is a moot point either way.

The one who is calling the american eagle tweety is kong soo do

I never mentioned the American Eagle or Tweety Bird. And please learn proper capitalization.

He is the one who is calling the kukkiwon a belt mill, and if he had his way, your kids wouldn't have kukkiwon certification until they are 18 years old.

I never said anything about being 18 yrs of age. Please don't make things up to try to justify your position. Just state how you feel and leave it at that.

If anything, kukkiwon certification is gaining momentum, from 1.8 million in 1987, to 4.6 million in 2001 to 7 million today.

Yes, and I've stated why. See you can 'try' and cover your tracks by saying that all those people you promoted were qualified, but your own statements dispute this;

I've done over 1000 kukkiwon poom and dan certifications in my life

It is my opinion that access to kukkiwon certification is a RIGHT of all taekwondoin -- everyone is entitled to it, no matter what their political affiliation or the technical guidelines that they follow.

We operated under this policy here in hawaii back in the early 90s when our state association was being revived. Back then, the only person who was issuing kukkiwon certification was me, the reason being that the seniors had retired and the juniors did not have kukkiwon certification and they could not give out what they themselves did not have. Many came from itf backgrounds and did not practice the kukkiwon poomsae. But they were sincere and wanted kukkiwon certification. Some, but not all, wanted to also learn the kukkiwon curriculum.

But, I did not do that. Instead, I liberally gave everyone the opportunity to obtain kukkiwon certification, without restriction.

Furthemore, you can say that they are all now KKW compliant, but here's two things;

• You can't possibly claim to have tracked over 1000 certificates you've passed out to know what they eventually did, or did not do.
• Even if you could, the point is that you passed them without a test, without restriction and without the knowledge of what they 'might' do or not do in the future. You gave them certs and sent them on their way. Its all about the numbers as is apparent from you constantly spouting their numbers.

 

[puunui]

Not according to the Las Vegas flyer. But it is a moot point either way.

Kukkiwon skip dan policy requires that the skip dan candidate pay all of the fees for the skip dans. And there was no "flyer". And if it a moot point, then why mention it in the first place?

I never mentioned the American Eagle or Tweety Bird. And please learn proper capitalization.

I was using gemini's example and applying it to you. and whatever on the capitalization.

I never said anything about being 18 yrs of age. Please don't make things up to try to justify your position. Just state how you feel and leave it at that.

If you say so. You do seem obsessed with the fact that the Kukkiwon issues certification to children, to the point where you erroneous believed that the Kukkiwon issued way more rank certificates to children than adults, like it was something that is bad. That much is clear.

Yes, and I've stated why. See you can 'try' and cover your tracks by saying that all those people you promoted were qualified, but your own statements dispute this;

I'm not covering anything. The part you are quoting is only about what we did in Hawaii, but I have promoted people all over the country. Even ronda sweet mentioned that I promoted her to Kukkiwon 4th Dan back in 1997. It's in one of the current threads in the taekwondo forum. I even promoted steven lopez to kukkiwon dan rank.

Furthemore, you can say that they are all now KKW compliant, but here's two things;

• You can't possibly claim to have tracked over 1000 certificates you've passed out to know what they eventually did, or did not do.
• Even if you could, the point is that you passed them without a test, without restriction and without the knowledge of what they 'might' do or not do in the future. You gave them certs and sent them on their way. Its all about the numbers as is apparent from you constantly spouting their numbers.

I don't want to check up on everyone or otherwise micromanage people. If someone who is actively sending competitors to USTU events d is winning medals in the poomsae and sparring divisions wants to recommend someone for kukkiwon poom and dan promotion, I have no problems processing that promotion request for them. I want to help them and free them to pursue their dreams and not have to worry about getting promotions for themselves or their students. There are a lot of people out there who need help in this regard, and it is one of the issues that will hopefully be addressed by the USAT's new administration. In spite of all your complaining and negative judgmental grumblings, the fact remains that people want kukkiwon certification and training. My attitude is, let's help them.

Here's a webpage from a member and director from your own organization placing prominently the fact that he received a letter of commendation from the president of the Kukkiwon. And if you look closely in the sections about arts that he trained in, he doesn't mention "Kong Soo Do" or any instructor that he studied that with, and in fact mentions his kukkiwon letter of commendation long before he talks about Kong Soo Do. He does mention the fact that he is a director of the International Kong Soo Do Association, but it is towards the very bottom of the page. In my opinion, this shows that your kong soo do director and member values his kukkiwon letter of commendation over his association with the International Kong Soo Do Association, perhaps because he doesn't seem to have learned Kong Soo Do from anyone. He does mention learning Hapkido from your GM Dunn, but not Kong Soo Do.

http://hoshindo.webs.com/aboutjamesray.htm

In keeping with the original topic, did your organization give Mr. Ray Kong Soo Do certification (phase two)before he received any Kong Soo Do training (phase three)? Again, he doesn't list any training in Kong Soo Do in the beginning part of his page. If so, then it seems that you are following the path that both martial arts X and taekwondo blazed. Mr. Ray mentions that he has trained in Taekwondo, Shaolin Kung Fu, Choy Li Fut Kung Fu, Aikido Bushikai, Stickfighting, Kempo Karate, Combat Jujitsu, Kamau Ryu Jujitsu, and Kickboxing (nine arts) but not Kong Soo Do.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Kukkiwon skip dan policy requires that the skip dan candidate pay all of the fees for the skip dans. And there was no "flyer".

Wrong. I received the PDF flyer Glenn. Don't dare to suggest I'm not being factual. http://usa-taekwondo.us/news/2009/01/09/deadline-extended-for-special-dan-testing/8093

I've place in bold the part where you only had to pay for the highest three, exactly as I posted.

USA Taekwondo, The USAT Martial Arts Commission and Kukkiwon are pleased to announce the planning of an unprecedented Special Dan Rank Promotion testing event. This testing opportunity will apply to all Kukkiwon ranks from 1[SUP]st[/SUP]-7[SUP]th [/SUP] Dan, as may be appropriate for the applicant. This opportunity is only being offered through USA Taekwondo (National Governing Body.) The special promotion tests will apply to the following categories of taekwondo practitioners.

1. Kukkiwon Rank Recognition Test: Those who have never received a Kukkiwon Dan rank but who have received a Dan rank from a credible taekwondo organization or credible Master/Grandmaster Instructor and are seeking Kukkiwon recognition of the rank they have achieved.
2. Skip Dan Test: Those who hold a Kukkiwon Dan rank, but who missed the opportunity (on more than one occasion) to test for subsequent Kukkiwon Dan ranks and would like to bring their Kukkiwon Dan current and will need to skip one or more Dan ranks (up to three ranks) to do so.
3. Time Reduction Test: Those who wish to test for a higher rank, but whose age or time in the current rank do not meet Kukkiwon standards, may test if their overall training and experience otherwise satisfies Kukkiwon's requirements.

Kukkiwon will hold a mandatory 12-16 hour Poomsae seminar for black belts/poom age 10 and older on the 13[SUP]th[/SUP] and 14[SUP]th[/SUP] of February during the U.S. Open in Las Vegas, with testing to occur either later on the 14[SUP]th[/SUP] or on the morning of the 15[SUP]th[/SUP]. All applicants shall submit a resume of their martial arts history, complete the Kukkiwon forms, and where applicable submit a copy of their current Dan rank certificate. In addition, 4th Dan and higher applicants must take the seminar. 6[SUP]th[/SUP] Dan and higher applicants must also submit a 10-page thesis on their experience and philosophy of Taekwondo; such as "Taekwondo and My Life".


"This is an unprecedented and exciting opportunity for Masters to achieve their deserved Kukkiwon ranks," said USAT CEO David Askinas. "We are hoping to receive a positive response from the taekwondo community so we can schedule the testing event in Las Vegas at U.S. Open."


USAT will be posting application forms guidelines on this website. We will want your current Kukkiwon Rank, your desired rank, and a letter detailing the reasons why you believe your promotion is justified. The applications will be reviewed by USAT and the Martial Arts Commissions for acceptability and forwarded to Kukkiwon for final review. Applicants who meet all necessary requirements to qualify for testing will receive notice of approval their application in advance of the test date.
"This is a remarkable and rare opportunity to make Taekwondo history," added Martial Arts Commission Chairman Grand Master JP Choi. "Every eligible Taekwondo Dan holder in the USA should embrace this moment with enthusiasm and apply for promotion without delay. The chance may never come again."
Fees for testing will be charged in the following manner and are due at the time the application is received. An applicant will be charged for a maximum of three Dan rank tests regardless of the number of ranks involved in the test. For example, if an applicant is applying for the new Kukkiwon Rank Recognition Test or seeking a Skip Dan Test, he/she will be charged only for the three highest rank test fees. For example, a 3d Dan seeking 7[SUP]th[/SUP] Dan would pay fees only for 5[SUP]th[/SUP], 6[SUP]th[/SUP], and 7[SUP]th [/SUP] Dan. Similarly, an applicant seeking a Rank Recognition test for 7[SUP]th[/SUP] Dan, will also only pay test fees for the three highest testing ranks (in this case, 5[SUP]th[/SUP], 6[SUP]th[/SUP], and 7[SUP]th [/SUP]Dan-). If only one or two rank promotions are being sought, the applicant will be charged for those requested ranks.


The planned test is conditioned upon 70 approved physical test (4[SUP]th[/SUP]-7[SUP]th[/SUP] Dan and/ or those who are skipping three Dans) applications from Kukkiwon.
1[SUP]st[/SUP] Dan-3[SUP]rd[/SUP] Dan applicants do not have to take a physical test and are not required to be in attendance at the testing. However, these applicants are strongly encouraged to attend and compete at the U.S. Open and attend the poomse seminar, which will be taught by the best instructors from Kukkiwon.


A late deadline of January 16 has been imposed along with an accompanying late deadline fee of $75. USAT and the Martial Arts Commission will promptly review the applications and submit them to Kukkiwon. Kukkiwon will issue notice of approval in time for travel arrangements to be made. Should the test not go forward in Las Vegas in February, the back up plan is to hold it in July in conjunction with the Junior Olympics and Senior Nationals which will be held in Austin, Texas.
Another special testing opportunity for 8[SUP]th[/SUP] and 9[SUP]th[/SUP] Dan will be offered later in 2009 by the Kukkiwon if all applicants meet the Kukkiwon requirements.
Please address all questions to USAT CEO David Askinas [email protected] or Grandmaster Joon Pyo Choi, Co-Chairman of the USAT Martial Arts Commission [email protected].

 

[puunui]

I've place in bold the part where you only had to pay for the highest three, exactly as I posted.

That's not a "flyer". But that's ok, no problem. The rule used to be that you could only skip a maximum of three dan, but they made an exception at this special test, but they must have kept the three skip fee in place. But that sort of weakens your kukkiwon is only in it for the money angle. If they were really in for the money, they would have charged the candidates the fee for all dans skipped. What about the other points you raised? For example, found anything that proves that most of the kukkiwon black belts are children?

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Are you so prideful that you can't simply accept that you were wrong about something? Why not simply say 'thank you' for being corrected.

 

[Gemini]

I'm not the one calling taekwondo "merely a sport".

If there's any other way to interpret this statement, I don't see it.
"Taekwondo is already identified as a "sport" using the Do identifier.'

I am not against you or what you are trying to do with your taekwondo, and frankly, I have no idea why you think that I do, other than the fact that you came into the discussion in the middle.

I never said you did, nor do I think that. I initially entered into the discussion because I felt you were misrepresenting some statistics (post 37) that included me, nothing more.

The one who is calling the american eagle tweety is kong soo do.

No, that was an analogy created by me referencing Taekwondo as a sport, made by you. It had nothing to do with Kong Soo Do. I have no desire to step into your dialog with Kong Soo Do. My posts to you in response to remarks made solely by you.

 

[puunui]

Are you so prideful that you can't simply accept that you were wrong about something? Why not simply say 'thank you' for being corrected.

Really. I have corrected you numerous times. For example, you never thanked me nor have you admitted being wrong about there being more kukkiwon poom holders than dan holders.Why not simply say "thank you" for being corrected on that and all the other points?

 

[puunui]

If there's any other way to interpret this statement, I don't see it.
"Taekwondo is already identified as a "sport" using the Do identifier.'

The context of that is the Kong Soo Do made the following statement: "I see it as being able to provide proper martial art training to those that need and/or want it. For those that need and/or want training in a martial sport have those venues available. My request is that those that do teach TKD (or any martial sport) as a sport, simply identify it as such for the sake of the student."

My response was this: "Taekwondo is already identified as a "sport" using the Do identifier. Jutsu is the suffix used for arts used in warfare, at least in Japan. Jujitsu. Kenjutsu. Etc. On the other hand, those which are not used for that purpose are identified with the Do suffix. Judo, a sport. Kendo, a sport. Karatedo, another sport which may be included in the 2020 Olympics. And Taekwondo. If you wish to distance yourself from "martial sports" like Judo, Kendo, Karatedo or Taekwondo, then change the suffix of your art to Jutsu, or the Korean equivilent, Sool."

Your contribution to the discussion is this: "Having been trained from day 1 by a Korean Master (born and raised in Korea no less) I've never heard the "Do" referred to as an identifier meaning "Sport"."

Please read my statement above again. Judo, Kendo, Karatedo, and Taekwondo are all competition oriented. Specifically, the jutsu arts were transformed from battlefield oriented arts to vehicles of self discovery and self growth. This was accomplished mainly through competition. Again, Judo and Kendo. The noncompetition oriented forms (excluding taekwondo) are Jujitsu, Kenjitsu and karatejutsu (originally pronounced toudejutsu in Okinawa). I am sure there are those who practice Judo, Kendo, Karatedo and Taekwondo for reasons other than competition, like self defense. But that doesn't not change the significance of the change of the suffix from jutsu (sool in korean) to Do. Later Do was used to include other not warfare or combat or self defense arts such as Aikido, which also focuses on self development and self discovery and not so much into self defense. I am sure there are also aikido practitioners who are into it for solely self defense, but this not the focus of aikido in general.

For additional information on the connection of "Do" (translated into "way") Here is what the Olympic Charter says about the way:Fundamental Principles of Olympism #1.

Olympism is a philosophy of life, exalting and combining in a balanced whole the
qualities of body, will and mind. Blending sport with culture and education, Olympism
seeks to create a way of life based on the joy of effort, the educational value of good
example, social responsibility and respect for universal fundamental ethical principles.

http://www.olympic.org/Documents/olympic_charter_en.pdf

My point to kong soo do is taekwondo doesn't need any further identification as a "sport", just like judo or kendo doesn't need any further identification or separation from jujutsu or kenjutsu.

 

[jks9199]

ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please keep the conversation polite and respectful. Remain on topic, and remember that personal attacks are prohibited.

Jim Sheeran
jks9199
Asst. Adminstrator

 

[Gemini]

The context of that is the Kong Soo Do made the following statement: "I see it as being able to provide proper martial art training to those that need and/or want it. For those that need and/or want training in a martial sport have those venues available. My request is that those that do teach TKD (or any martial sport) as a sport, simply identify it as such for the sake of the student."

My response was this: "Taekwondo is already identified as a "sport" using the Do identifier. Jutsu is the suffix used for arts used in warfare, at least in Japan. Jujitsu. Kenjutsu. Etc. On the other hand, those which are not used for that purpose are identified with the Do suffix. Judo, a sport. Kendo, a sport. Karatedo, another sport which may be included in the 2020 Olympics. And Taekwondo. If you wish to distance yourself from "martial sports" like Judo, Kendo, Karatedo or Taekwondo, then change the suffix of your art to Jutsu, or the Korean equivilent, Sool."

Your contribution to the discussion is this: "Having been trained from day 1 by a Korean Master (born and raised in Korea no less) I've never heard the "Do" referred to as an identifier meaning "Sport"."

Please read my statement above again. Judo, Kendo, Karatedo, and Taekwondo are all competition oriented. Specifically, the jutsu arts were transformed from battlefield oriented arts to vehicles of self discovery and self growth. This was accomplished mainly through competition. Again, Judo and Kendo. The noncompetition oriented forms (excluding taekwondo) are Jujitsu, Kenjitsu and karatejutsu (originally pronounced toudejutsu in Okinawa). I am sure there are those who practice Judo, Kendo, Karatedo and Taekwondo for reasons other than competition, like self defense. But that doesn't not change the significance of the change of the suffix from jutsu (sool in korean) to Do. Later Do was used to include other not warfare or combat or self defense arts such as Aikido, which also focuses on self development and self discovery and not so much into self defense. I am sure there are also aikido practitioners who are into it for solely self defense, but this not the focus of aikido in general.

For additional information on the connection of "Do" (translated into "way") Here is what the Olympic Charter says about the way:Fundamental Principles of Olympism #1.

Olympism is a philosophy of life, exalting and combining in a balanced whole the
qualities of body, will and mind. Blending sport with culture and education, Olympism
seeks to create a way of life based on the joy of effort, the educational value of good
example, social responsibility and respect for universal fundamental ethical principles.

http://www.olympic.org/Documents/olympic_charter_en.pdf

My point to kong soo do is taekwondo doesn't need any further identification as a "sport", just like judo or kendo doesn't need any further identification or separation from jujutsu or kenjutsu.

I appreciate your taking the time to address your response, but I read and felt I understood it the first time. I just completely disagree with it and have never met anyone describe any of those arts, particularly Taekwondo, in that manner as competition oriented, such as origin or introduced or derived from. Many years ago, I was reading an article written in the early 50's in an American paper about the Korean Fighting Art of Taekwondo. Much is vague now but I remember the article speaking of how devastating American troops found the art to be. Didn't mention anything about sport. How about Iado or Haedong Kumdo, neither of which are a sport oriented? Their sport aspect is covered by Kendo, yet they retain the "Do". As for Aikido, I don't practice the art, nor have any knowledge of the intent of its origins other than I heard it was the hand technique taught to Samurai for self defense. Whether that's true or not I have no idea, so I'll let someone learned in Aikido enlighten me as to the origins of Aikido. How about Hapkido? Philosophical alsothen?

As for the Olympic charter, I am familiar to what it says, but there is no correlation between that charter and the mention of "Do". That statement was written for and encompasses the spirit of the Olympics for every participant of every sport. Taekwondo as an art expands far beyond the Olympics as a sport.

 

[puunui]

I am taking my post and making a new thread.