Proper sequence of events?

[Kong Soo Do]

Ok, so no numbers, and you ask us to ignore the development of do vs. jutsu arts and its significance. Got it.

Hmm, looking back, there are quite a few numbers that you've overlooked. As for Do vs. Jutsu, you weren't asked to ignore anything. If this is something that is bothering you, I encourage you to start a thread and discuss it.

There ya go

 

[puunui]

I was talking about numbers from your circle. Your additional numbers regarding the Kukkiwon's record of the number of promotions it has done goes to prove the point that people don't really care about sport vs. self defense, that people desire kukkiwon certification and are obtaining it, in Korea, the United States and other countries as well. I have a country by country breakdown of the numbers, which was published by the Kukkiwon in their 25th Anniversary book. Like I said earlier, you can try to stop it, but I don't think it is even reasonable to think that you are even making a dent. It's a runaway freight train at this point, and is here to stay. I'm just trying to help those who want to get on.

And it doesn't bother me that you ignore the do vs. jutsu significance.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Your additional numbers regarding the Kukkiwon's record of the number of promotions it has done goes to prove the point that people don't really care about sport vs. self defense, that people desire kukkiwon certification and are obtaining it, in Korea, the United States and other countries as well.

Hmm, actually it doesn't really have anything to do with sport vs. self-defense. Though I am glad to hear you finally acknowledge that KKW TKD isn't self-defense. See, I am making progress with you :ultracool

Like I said earlier, you can try to stop it, but I don't think it is even reasonable to think that you are even making a dent. It's a runaway freight train at this point, and is here to stay. I'm just trying to help those who want to get on.

Try to stop it? Why would you think I'm trying to stop it? You've completely missed the entire point Glenn. It only helps me out in the long run.

And it doesn't bother me that you ignore the do vs. jutsu significance.

Whew, I'm glad of that. :uhyeah:

 

[puunui]

Hmm, actually it doesn't really have anything to do with sport vs. self-defense. Though I am glad to hear you finally acknowledge that KKW TKD isn't self-defense. See, I am making progress with you :ultracool

What I acknowledge is that people who study taekwondo today for the most part aren't interested in self defense. Certainly those who practice in Korea. United States too. Simply looking into almost any taekwondo school in any city town or state in the US will confirm that. What is also true is that the younger instructors are for the most part not interested in teaching hard core self defense or even "sport". The focus on the majority of schools, even schools being run by former world champions, olympians, etc. focus on self discipline, improved concentration and behavior, respect for parents, etc. And they are making a mint doing it. They also are somewhat upset at sometimes not receiving kukkiwon certification from their own instructors, and because of that, are seeking kukkiwon certification for themselves, and for their students, because they do not want to do the same thing that was done to them.

Martial arts supply companies that taekwondo instructors support also make it easy to have all the trappings of kukkiwon style taekwondo. They have flags, uniforms, plates, stickers, keychains, guep certificates, medals, pins, equipment, instructional books including kukkiwon textbooks and everything else needed to be a fully stocked kukki taekwondo dojang. So why wouldn't they want kukkiwon certification as well? They have everything else. So like I have said earlier, you can continue to rail out against the kukkiwon and taekwondo to everyone who will listen, and maybe a couple few will sympathize and may even support you. But the majority are out there, searching the internet, seeing others who have kukkiwon certification, and are wanting that for themselves.

 

[Jenna]

I'd like to open up a topic for practitioners of martial arts in general and get their opinion. As an example, we have a martial art that we'll call 'X'. It is a very popular martial art. It is practiced around the world and has a sport side as well as a self-defense side, though they are not necessarily taught together. Martial art 'X' has over the years developed into multiple arts that use the same name. As a further clarification, they use the same name, but may have different grandmasters, somewhat different lineages, different forms, different drill and even different philosophies.

Now lets say one of the organizations for martial arts 'X' is making a big push to get all instructors and practitioners of martial art 'X' under their control/banner, even the ones that don't follow the curriculum of martial art 'X'. Lets say that this organization, through multiple instructors offers certification through this organization, regardless of whether the curriculum is known, regardless of whether there is any desire to learn the curriculum or the same technical level that would normally be required, and regardless of whether or not any test is adminstered for competency.

How does this sound to you?

I do not believe this would work ITRW because under no apparent authority does this one organisation command all the others and make them subordinate, correct?

It cannot be an "umbrella" organisation as it does not seem to be a big enough umbrella to cover all those who should be under it. Therefore it sounds more like a martial oligarchy.

I think the only way to work this in practice is to take a lead from other conciliatory organisations and elect an overarching body. This body would contain representatives from all concerns. It would be responsible for formulating an amalgamation of the bodies and styles. This can only be achieved by creating an wholly new organisation, surely?

If so then the core principles must be satisfactory to all member bodies. I think it is not possible to incorporate all variant techniques and curricula and I would worry that there might be a desire of one organisation to foist theirs upon the others. Or worse, might there be a homogenisation of the variations into a lowest-common-denominator style? That would be not so good. I guess there would need to be a framework for incorporation / deletion (or sidelining) of curriculum material so that ultimately there would be a curriculum that had broad agreement from all bodies.

I think alas, that at the end of the day there will ALWAYS be some unhappy practitioner who will not accede to the demands of this new body and go off and start his own organisation and then the whole thing will revolve again. Ego, eh?

 

[puunui]

I think alas, that at the end of the day there will ALWAYS be some unhappy practitioner who will not accede to the demands of this new body and go off and start his own organisation and then the whole thing will revolve again. Ego, eh?

There you go. So I concentrate for the most part on those who do want kukkiwon certification, and go from there. Those who are unhappy and/or do not wish kukkiwon certification, I try not to build relationships with them or get too close. For the unhappy ones, I think that any efforts in attempting to make them happy will be negated by their desire or tendency to want to make me unhappy, like they are. I don't know if that makes any sense.

 

[Gemini]

Actually, I have to check in for a quick second here. My 3 boys, myself and 2 students all promoted last year in the Kukkiwon and none of us train for Sport, all self defense, yet we're included in your earlier referenced numbers. I'd also like to remind folks that most people walking into a dojang have absolutely no knowledge of any of this and it really doesn't play into their decision. As usual, I speak from my own experience of course. While we may be a minority in the Kukkiwon, we're by no means scarce.

That is another losing battle. Taekwondo is already identified as a "sport" using the Do identifier.

Having been trained from day 1 by a Korean Master (born and raised in Korea no less) I've never heard the "Do" referred to as an identifier meaning "Sport".

 

[K-man]

The initial hypothetical applies to Goju karate. After Miyagi Sensei died you had two major Okinawan lineages under Yagi and Miyazato Senseis and the Japanese version under Yamaguchi Sensei. Goju Kai became by far the most popular version due to its sport base and over the years hundreds of versions have developed, at least ten in Australia alone.
There are less lines leading off the Okinawan versions but still a significant number.

One of the things that identify a 'style' in karate is the group of kata handed down. Originally there were 12 in Goju but Yamaguchi added another 5 beginner kata to the Goju Kai syllabus. Another breakaway group incorporated kata from Shotokan. Yet another style threw out kata altogether then reintroduced them later, but modified them to suit the understanding of their top people. Goju Kai also developed a lot of ippon kumite that was either retained, modified or discarded by the breakaways. So, as in the hypothetical, the syllabi in all these different brands are now miles apart.

Goju does not have any 'world bodies' trying to reunite the masses. It is way, way too late for that. All we can do now is cellibrate our differences and move on.

 

[puunui]

Goju does not have any 'world bodies' trying to reunite the masses. It is way, way too late for that. All we can do now is cellibrate our differences and move on.

The goal of the karate pioneers, at least those in Japan, was to unify karate in name, certification and technical curriculum. I believe they unified the name, for the most part, karatedo instead of kenpo or toudejutsu, etc. And there were efforts to unify the certification, under the butokukai and perhaps other later organizations. But it fell off at the certification stage, and so technical curriculum unification was never really approached. I think part of the reason was that the karate pioneers were all of different ages, mindsets and agendas. Some did not want rank. Others needed to keep this or that kata, and didn't want to learn these other kata. whatever it was, the differences were too great to overcome.

Taekwondo was a little different. The original kwan founders were also of different ages, mindsets and agendas. they were, in essence, like the okinawan pioneers in Japan who preceded and/or taught them. But one by one, the original kwan founders were slowly removed from the unification process, leaving the second generation group to run things. That second group, who I generally refer to as the pioneers, were of the same age, started about the same time, had the same mindset and the same agenda, which was to unify taekwondo in name, certification and technical curriculum. They worked hard, worked together and came up with kukki taekwondo, which everyone acknowledges is the most popular martial art in the world. So different circumstances, different results.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

So I concentrate for the most part on those who do want kukkiwon certification, and go from there.

But it doesn't explain how you're helping the KKW get to stage three by passing out certificates to people who aren't interested in getting to stage three. That is only inflating the numbers which is of no real value.

 

[puunui]

But it doesn't explain how you're helping the KKW get to stage three by passing out certificates to people who aren't interested in getting to stage three. That is only inflating the numbers which is of no real value.

They start by saying that, that they only want this or that. So specifically, within the context of that statement that you are quoting, they were those who had ITF backgrounds and ITF certification but was already competing at USTU events, for sparring. When asked, they said, at the time, that they were not interested in learning the taeguek poomsae, just doing ustu competition and sparring. But later, they all learned the taeguek poomsae, because they also wanted to win medals in poomsae. They realized, like I knew they would, that they would eventually convert to the taeguek poomsae. Some of those former itf types are now at the stage where they will be placing people on the US National Poomsae Team, using the taeguek poomsae. in fact, of the people that I have promoted or converted to kukkiwon certification in hawaii, all now teach the taeguek poomsae. Some however, practice the itf forms on their own time, because that is their root and they like those forms. I think one might be teaching a couple of the itf forms to their higher dan members, as a curriculum builder. But they have all pretty much converted over completely.

Again, we can be strict and hold people to certain standards. But if I had done that, I would have accomplished nothing but to hold them back. I rather that they come to these things on their own, in their own time, which of course I knew they would. Being competitive, why would you not learn a color belt form set that will get you a chance to win medals? Going to a national event from Hawaii is a major expense, flying sometimes 13 hours or more. It is a huge commitment, which I think is one of the reasons why hawaii competitors do well. It is a major thing to fly to the mainland, and they want to make the most of it. It is disappointing to not medal after flying that far, and having a poomsae medal helps ease the loss in sparring. So of course it was only a matter of time before they converted to the taeguek poomsae, even if initially their thoughts were not to. Now it has been twenty years, people are climbing the ranks and they feel good about themselves. Why not? They trained hard, learned the new curriculum and in the process, contributed to the reputation and quality that hawaii produces in terms of the martial arts. I'm happy with the results, and I am glad that I had a small hand in that, even if you aren't.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Actually, I have to check in for a quick second here. My 3 boys, myself and 2 students all promoted last year in the Kukkiwon and none of us train for Sport, all self defense, yet we're included in your earlier referenced numbers. I'd also like to remind folks that most people walking into a dojang have absolutely no knowledge of any of this and it really doesn't play into their decision. As usual, I speak from my own experience of course. While we may be a minority in the Kukkiwon, we're by no means scarce.
Having been trained from day 1 by a Korean Master (born and raised in Korea no less) I've never heard the "Do" referred to as an identifier meaning "Sport".

I too train under a korean master, who has trained continuously for 65+years and one of the reasons he is no longer associated with the kkw is because he does not believe it should be taught as a sport. He obviously doesnt understand the "do" thing either.

 

[puunui]

Having been trained from day 1 by a Korean Master (born and raised in Korea no less) I've never heard the "Do" referred to as an identifier meaning "Sport".

Maybe he doesn't know about it. Who is your korean master? I might know him.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

They start by saying that, that they only want this or that.

Which should have been the first clue right then and there.

When asked, they said, at the time, that they were not interested in learning the taeguek poomsae, just doing ustu competition and sparring. But later, they all learned the taeguek poomsae...

We operated under this policy here in hawaii back in the early 90s when our state association was being revived. Back then, the only person who was issuing kukkiwon certification was me, the reason being that the seniors had retired and the juniors did not have kukkiwon certification and they could not give out what they themselves did not have. Many came from itf backgrounds and did not practice the kukkiwon poomsae. But they were sincere and wanted kukkiwon certification. Some, but not all, wanted to also learn the kukkiwon curriculum.

'Some, but not all' means 'most' did not want to learn the KKW curriculum. But now, all of a sudden, they all did later learn it? Hmmm... So your saying that every single person, of the more than 1000+ certificates you handed out to people, without testing them to learn their technical skill level, later became KKW compliant? Is this what you're saying? And if this is what you're saying, how were you able to track over 1000 people to know that they later did this?

Thank you in advance for the clarification.

Maybe he doesn't know about it. Who is your korean master? I might know him.

Maybe he does and you're in error? If this is a Korean master with 65+ years of experience, then he would be your senior and have a deeper knowledge than you. Several members have tried to explain to you, in this thread, that the distinction that once existed between 'Do' and 'Jutsu' isn't really a factor today. And 'Do' mean 'way' not 'sport'. And while a 'Do' can provide sport training, it doens't have to provide it. Perhaps you need to reevaluate your position on this subject?

 

[Gemini]

Maybe he doesn't know about it. Who is your korean master? I might know him.

I'm sure that's it. Being a graduate of Yong-In, I doubt they got as far as to cover the definition of the name. Hey, why stop there. Let's reference the Taekwondo Textbook issued directly from the Kukkiwon. I can see where it specifically describes the definition of Taekwondo, which doesn't include anything resembling sport either. I probably have an old edition though, right. C'mon, man.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I'm sure that's it. Being a graduate of Yong-In, I doubt they got as far as to cover the definition of the name. Hey, why stop there. Let's reference the Taekwondo Textbook issued directly from the Kukkiwon. I can see where it specifically describes the definition of Taekwondo, which doesn't include anything resembling sport either. I probably have an old edition though, right. C'mon, man.

Out of curiosity I just asked my korean neighbour (wtf guy) if he was aware of the "do" thing and his reply (in very broken english) "never heard that, tkd is not sport, it can be sport if want, but tkd is martial art". It would appear that more and more korean people are unaware of puuini's revelations.

 

[puunui]

Which should have been the first clue right then and there.

I didn't consider it a clue, I looked upon it as a test of my patience, my understanding of the pioneer's wishes and actions, my long term view of things and my faith in people.

'Some, but not all' means 'most' did not want to learn the KKW curriculum. But now, all of a sudden, they all did later learn it? Hmmm... So your saying that every single person, of the more than 1000+ certificates you handed out to people, without testing them to learn their technical skill level, later became KKW compliant? Is this what you're saying? And if this is what you're saying, how were you able to track over 1000 people to know that they later did this?

Not all of a sudden, but over a period of years. I started that 20 years ago, back when our state championships were still accepting any and all forms. Now we only accept taeguek poomsae, as does USAT national and WTF international events, and so everyone has converted over. USTU always accepted only palgwae and taeguek, and back in the early days, it was mostly palgwae you saw. Now all you see is taeguek poomsae, which is what the rules state, and people are not only converting over, but are excelling at it to the point of on the verge of making the poomsae national team.

Switching over and learning the taeguek poomsae is not that big a deal. It isn't some gigantic mountain to over come. Korean school children learn all eight in a space of a year. How hard can it be for experienced practitioners to learn them? Not hard at all. I think you are attempting to make a mountain out of a molehill. Going to a national event, there is sparring and poomsae. If you learn the authorized poomsae, then you double your chances of winning a medal. People come home very proud that they won "double gold" (in sparring and poomsae). If you see your rival club's medal count shoot up because of poomsae medals, then of course you will switch over and try to get those poomsae medals too. If you participate in tournaments, this is obvious. If you do not, then you will have a difficult time understanding the logic or the motivations to switch over.

Maybe he does and you're in error? If this is a Korean master with 65+ years of experience, then he would be your senior and have a deeper knowledge than you.

Not necessarily. Just because someone is senior does not conclude that they would have "deeper" knowledge. It just means that they are senior. I have had many seniors come up to me and tell me they are amazed at the level and depth of my explanations, on everything. They are literally shocked, and grateful for the level of sharing that we do. They said that when they were coming up, they did not ask their teachers any questions, and therefore they never thought about all these things that american or western students seem to want to know. So when their american or western students ask these questions, they get stuck and don't know what to say to them. One senior, our state president when I served as secretary general twenty years ago, said I was a "treasure", like how GM NAM Tae Hi was to General Choi. The impact of that statement was more hard hitting because he was an ITF member who I had recommended for Kukkiwon assimilation dan that was higher than my own rank at the time. It took a while but I understand that about five or so years ago, he had one of his students teach him the taeguek poomsae, which he now teaches in his own dojang. So he was the last one to convert over.

But getting back to the "65+ years of experience", that would mean that the practitioner would have started in 1946. That means that this person would have most likely come from the Chung Do Kwan or Jidokwan (Chosun Yun Moo Kwan). There is a small chance of this gentleman being from the Chang Moo Kwan, but highly unlikely, given that it was started in September 1946. Even the current Chang Moo Kwan Jang started training in March 1947, so he would be junior to this "65+ years" of experience practitioner. Who is this person? Between mastercole and I, we can pretty verify the start times and credentials in the three kwans. Personally, I highly doubt that whoever the student of the 65+ year practitioner is, they are mistaken on the experience level. If you are talking about Gemini's instructor, I don't think so, because he said that his instructor is from Yongin Dae, which originally was the Judo College and places a heavy emphasis on competition for judo, kendo and taekwondo. Yongindae students and alumni are always vying for spots on the korean national team, in poomsae and sparring.

Several members have tried to explain to you, in this thread, that the distinction that once existed between 'Do' and 'Jutsu' isn't really a factor today.

It is not my practice to rely solely on the unsupported opinions of a newly promoted 1st dan to support my position. But everyone is free to do whatever they want.

And 'Do' mean 'way' not 'sport'. And while a 'Do' can provide sport training, it doens't have to provide it. Perhaps you need to reevaluate your position on this subject?

Right, "way", not sport. Here is what the Olympic Charter says about the way:Fundamental Principles of Olympism #1.

Olympism is a philosophy of life, exalting and combining in a balanced whole the
qualities of body, will and mind. Blending sport with culture and education, Olympism
seeks to create a way of life based on the joy of effort, the educational value of good
example, social responsibility and respect for universal fundamental ethical principles.

http://www.olympic.org/Documents/olympic_charter_en.pdf

 

[puunui]

I'm sure that's it. Being a graduate of Yong-In, I doubt they got as far as to cover the definition of the name. Hey, why stop there. Let's reference the Taekwondo Textbook issued directly from the Kukkiwon. I can see where it specifically describes the definition of Taekwondo, which doesn't include anything resembling sport either. I probably have an old edition though, right. C'mon, man.

I was asked to teach at the kukkiwon instructor course.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Just because someone is senior does not conclude that they would have "deeper" knowledge.

So you don't want to listen to someone senior to you because their statement is different than your own.

It is not my practice to rely solely on the unsupported opinions of a newly promoted 1st dan to support my position. But everyone is free to do whatever they want.

And you don't want to listen to someone junior to you because their statment is different than your own.

Hmm...I see a common denomenator here.

Anyway, back to the topic.

• You've given out over a 1000 KKW certificates, without testing the individuals, who weren't qualified at the time, and expressed no interest at the time in becoming qualified. You are just one person, of many that have followed this practice over the years.
• Over 90% of the black belts in the KKW are inside of Korea, most of which are children.
• Of the less than 10% of KKW black belts in the rest of the world, the majority are children.
• The KKW total membership is inflated by people that are no longer active.
• The KKW during the recent (and future?) 'special testings' don't require attendence at the actual test up to 3rd Dan.
• The KKW masters test at these events is one minute of sparring and two forms.
• One may skip up to 6 Dans in the KKW, as long as the highest three are paid for, in advance.

This is factual and according to the numbers the KKW provides, as well as your statements on this board. So my simple question would be; What is the difference between the KKW and a belt factory?

 

[Gemini]

I was asked to teach at the kukkiwon instructor course.

That's impressive, but not sure how it's relevant. Regardless, be careful what you teach. To summarize the National Martial Art of Korea as merely a sport might be about as popular as referring to USA's Eagle as Tweety Bird. Let's also remember that your statement encompasses all practitioners of Taekwondo, not just the Kukkiwon.