Proper sequence of events?

[ralphmcpherson]

Bringing in and certifying people who don't know or weren't brought up in the system is just a way to make money...period.

It isn't about standards, it is about getting more members for more money. Look at how many "Krav Maga" schools suddenly popped up. You took a short class that basically taught you the first level of material and then were now "Certified" as a Krav Maga instructor to train others in it. Others have done it as well, just KM seems to be the most recent. It is a good way to get more franchise schools out there and get more money back to your organization.

I agree with this line of thinking. Certifying people who either 1.dont know the system or, 2.people who know the system but dont teach it, is just a way to make money. Why else would you want to certify someone who doesnt even know/teach your curriculum? Its a different thing altogether if all the different clubs/orgs doing martial art "x" are doing the same thing, then it is probably a good idea to bring everyone together aand have one governing body. But, if there are many branches of martial art "x" doing completely different things, then the only reason I can possibly imagine for having one controlling body is $$$.

 

[puunui]

I think you know at least one, GM Davies in GB. Or it may have been his brother that you know? The other is Master Smits (sp?) in NY. Very good people and I've had the privilege to talk with both many times. Master Smits was one of the moderators on an earlier version of Martial Warrior.

There are two brothers, Andy and Chris Davies. One was running the World Ildokwan Federation (Chris I think), which I think got shut down. The other (Andy) is the head of the Chung Do Kwan in UK. I met Andy in Korea in 2010 at the Kukkiwon Branch Office meeting. I don't know who Master Smits is.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

How is it that this big organiziation is not simply ignored by those not connected to it?

In the case of the kukkiwon, for example, this is exactly what happens. I do tkd, and had been training for years before I even knew what the kukkiwon was, in fact without the internet I still wouldnt know.

 

[ATC]

You do bring up a good point (although I do not know if I wish to characterize seniors as "old farts") about the next generation coming up. What we are seeing is that the younger generation of instructor do not have the same perspective as far as holding on to older forms, self defense orientation, etc. The younger generation want to learn and teach the current kukkiwon curriculum, even if their instructors were a little resistant. So grandfathering in the senior, we sometimes we have to be patient and take a long term view on these things and wait a generation before the standardization occurs. We have more standardization today than ever before in kukki taekwondo.

Yes, I think my choice of words may not have been the best choice. My appologies to anyone that may have been offended. :asian:

 

[Kong Soo Do]

There are two brothers, Andy and Chris Davies. One was running the World Ildokwan Federation (Chris I think), which I think got shut down. The other (Andy) is the head of the Chung Do Kwan in UK. I met Andy in Korea in 2010 at the Kukkiwon Branch Office meeting. I don't know who Master Smits is.

I've never met Chris, but have heard good things about him. Andy ran/runs the WIF. I think it is still in operation, at least in Europe. There was a U.S. branch at one time, and may still be around? At one time, for a brief time, I was the V.P. of the U.S. branch. All my time was taken up stamping out fires caused by questionable acts by predecessors. This lead to information of these acts that I could not/did not condone so I left. It seemed to far gone for repair. This in no way reflects upon Andy, he is top shelf.

 

[punisher73]

What if you were brought up in the system but for whatever reason your instructor chose to give you his own signed certificates instead of the ones he got from the official world body? See any problem with the world body assisting those students with getting official certification? That is the main problem for taekwondo in the united states for example, people learning the kukkiwon style, practicing the kukkiwon curriculum, competing at USAT and WTF events, but not having official kukkiwon certification.

IMO, that would be a different situation. Those people are already trained in the system, but might not have a certain type of credential. I can see certain advantages in that case. Reminds me of scuba diving, there are two competing certifying bodies and each is trying to get theirs recognized as the better certification and authority on it. So, if you get one type of certification, it might not be recognized where you go even if you know the material.

What I was referring to, would be a body like the Kukkiwon (just using them as an exampl, not saying they do this) selling certifications to a Shotokan school after a short course, and then the Shotokan school advertising that they now teach TKD and award ranks and channel that rank certificate/testing fees back to the Kukkiwon.

 

[puunui]

IMO, that would be a different situation. Those people are already trained in the system, but might not have a certain type of credential. I can see certain advantages in that case. Reminds me of scuba diving, there are two competing certifying bodies and each is trying to get theirs recognized as the better certification and authority on it. So, if you get one type of certification, it might not be recognized where you go even if you know the material.

This would be the overwhelming bulk of transfers today, someone who is learning kukkiwon material but never got kukkiwon certification. For some reason, many instructors in the US did not give their students kukkiwon certification, which has caused all kinds of problems. So we try to assist these people in obtaining their kukkiwon certification. Some people try to characterize these efforts to help people as something bad, that they don't have or want kukkiwon certification and speak with hostility about those who are trying to help people obtain kukkiwon certification. but they are in the minority. If they do not want kukkiwon certification, no one is forcing it upon them. I can tell you that for every taekwondoin that is against kukkiwon, there are 100 others who don't have it and want it. Can't please everyone.

What I was referring to, would be a body like the Kukkiwon (just using them as an exampl, not saying they do this) selling certifications to a Shotokan school after a short course, and then the Shotokan school advertising that they now teach TKD and award ranks and channel that rank certificate/testing fees back to the Kukkiwon.

That is not what is going on with the Kukkiwon. Individual instructors may do that though, but it is not kukkiwon policy. I do know that General Choi back in the 1960s promoted a shotokan practitioner here to ITF 6th Dan with little or no taekwon-do training. Also, a taekwondo instructor might fast track a shotokan or karate black belt through the ranks, just like a taekwondo black belt may get fast tracked at a karate school.

 

[punisher73]

This would be the overwhelming bulk of transfers today, someone who is learning kukkiwon material but never got kukkiwon certification. For some reason, many instructors in the US did not give their students kukkiwon certification, which has caused all kinds of problems. So we try to assist these people in obtaining their kukkiwon certification. Some people try to characterize these efforts to help people as something bad, that they don't have or want kukkiwon certification and speak with hostility about those who are trying to help people obtain kukkiwon certification. but they are in the minority. If they do not want kukkiwon certification, no one is forcing it upon them. I can tell you that for every taekwondoin that is against kukkiwon, there are 100 others who don't have it and want it. Can't please everyone.




That is not what is going on with the Kukkiwon. Individual instructors may do that though, but it is not kukkiwon policy. I do know that General Choi back in the 1960s promoted a shotokan practitioner here to ITF 6th Dan with little or no taekwon-do training. Also, a taekwondo instructor might fast track a shotokan or karate black belt through the ranks, just like a taekwondo black belt may get fast tracked at a karate school.

I have no knowledge of what the Kukkiwon does or does not do. I answered based on the original question and even gave a non-TKD example of what I was talking about. Based on your questions and example, I would answer a different way.

 

[puunui]

I have no knowledge of what the Kukkiwon does or does not do. I answered based on the original question and even gave a non-TKD example of what I was talking about. Based on your questions and example, I would answer a different way.

I feel like so many times, especially on message boards such as this, that my role seems to be to get people to see things from a broader, big picture viewpoint, that the perspective given to them perhaps does not include all of the facts. I try to give all those facts, or at least a different perspective, which hopefully broadens and in many cases, softens people's harsh judgments and views. Issues arises when people are so connected on intertwined with their views that when asked to look at a different perspective, they feel personally attacked, the views and their person being one and the same, when in reality, they are not the same.

 

[Buka]

I'm an old dojo rat, not all that bright, and I'm easily confused. What was the original question?

 

[puunui]

I'm an old dojo rat, not all that bright, and I'm easily confused. What was the original question?

See the first post.

 

[Buka]

See the first post.

Thank you, kind sir, I have. Again, I'm not really sure of the question.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I feel like so many times, especially on message boards such as this, that my role seems to be to get people to see things from a broader, big picture viewpoint, that the perspective given to them perhaps does not include all of the facts. I try to give all those facts, or at least a different perspective, which hopefully broadens and in many cases, softens people's harsh judgments and views. Issues arises when people are so connected on intertwined with their views that when asked to look at a different perspective, they feel personally attacked, the views and their person being one and the same, when in reality, they are not the same.

That is a wonderful goal Glenn. With respect, I don't see you putting that into practice when it is someone else trying to bring a different perspective for you to consider. It is a two-way road.

At any rate, looking back at the thread it would appear that the consensus is that martial art 'X', at least as far as one organization is concerned, is putting the cart before the horse and that 'stage 3' isn't a realistic expectation due to the zeal of some instructors to promote without concern or restriction(s). Many feel, as I do, that this simply boils down to $. And that is a very sad thing, but not unexpected.

 

[puunui]

That is a wonderful goal Glenn. With respect, I don't see you putting that into practice when it is someone else trying to bring a different perspective for you to consider. It is a two-way road.

I can't change how you feel or view things.

At any rate, looking back at the thread it would appear that the consensus is that martial art 'X', at least as far as one organization is concerned, is putting the cart before the horse and that 'stage 3' isn't a realistic expectation due to the zeal of some instructors to promote without concern or restriction(s). Many feel, as I do, that this simply boils down to $. And that is a very sad thing, but not unexpected.

Like I have said previously, everyone is entitled to their opinion. I can tell you that the stages are working, at least within my own small world of influence, with respect to taekwondo, as opposed to martial art X. In general, I only come in contact with those who are interested in ustu or usat competition. Those are the ones who I generally end up helping, although there are always exceptions. If I see a promising taekwondoin who has potential, then I sometimes will offer to help them. Very few of those though. But in general, I tend to limit my activities to my own organization, those who are interested in competition under the wtf rules. Most are already actively involved, sending their students to tournaments. Whenever the lists of medalists are released by USAT, I see lots of names in poomsae and sparring whose poom or dan recommendation was signed by me. I've helped a lot of people pursue their dreams. If that for whatever reason bothers you, then that is something that you have to deal with, not me.

For the people that you are thinking about, the ones who aren't interested in sparring or competition and therefore have no need or desire for kukkiwon certification, I generally don't have contact with those, and if I do, I generally don't help them. Like you said, they don't need it and I am not into forcing people to take it. Personally, I think this group of self defense first and foremost, or self defense only taekwondoin is small, and getting smaller. The new young generation of taekwondo instructors are interested in being in compliance with the kukkiwon standards and want kukkiwon certification, for themselves and their students. Those who come to taekwondo today frankly aren't interested in self defense primarily. They do it for other reasons. If they want self defense primarily, they will take a different type of martial art. Saying "taekwondo is a SPORT" gets no negative reaction from potential students or their parents today. They don't care about self defense. It's nice, but not the main reason why they walk into a taekwondo dojang for the first time.

So I think you are fighting a losing battle, akin to saying cds or mp3s are bad, that a true music lover will only buy vinyl. But such is the evolution of recorded music, similar to the evolution of taekwondo. I don't think you can stop it, but you are certainly welcome to try.

 

[Flying Crane]

In the case of the kukkiwon, for example, this is exactly what happens. I do tkd, and had been training for years before I even knew what the kukkiwon was, in fact without the internet I still wouldnt know.

that's really my point tho. Nobody can force you to join their organization. The only way they could wield any power is if you REALLY wanna play THEIR game. OK, if you wanna play their game then join up. But if you don't care about their game and aren't interested, then just ignore what they are up to and do your own thing.

Without the internet, you say you still would not know about the kukkiwon. OK, so do they have any effect on you at all? It's pretty easy to ignore them if you don't care what they are doing.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Personally, I think this group of self defense first and foremost, or self defense only taekwondoin is small, and getting smaller.

Actually, I see this segment getting larger. Both here, in Europe and Australia according to the seniors I speak with there and what they're relaying to me. TKD, as a sport is what seems to be getting smaller. But then, of course, we all sometimes travel in different circles.

So I think you are fighting a losing battle

I don't see it as a battle at all. I see it as being able to provide proper martial art training to those that need and/or want it. For those that need and/or want training in a martial sport have those venues available. My request is that those that do teach TKD (or any martial sport) as a sport, simply identify it as such for the sake of the student.

 

[puunui]

Actually, I see this segment getting larger. Both here, in Europe and Australia according to the seniors I speak with there and what they're relaying to me. TKD, as a sport is what seems to be getting smaller. But then, of course, we all sometimes travel in different circles.

Ok, let use some numbers. Kukkiwon poom and dan promotions went from 1.8 million in 1987 to 7 million last year, effectively quadrupling the number of Kukkiwon poom and dan holders in less than 25 years. How many people have those in your circle promoted?

I don't see it as a battle at all. I see it as being able to provide proper martial art training to those that need and/or want it. For those that need and/or want training in a martial sport have those venues available. My request is that those that do teach TKD (or any martial sport) as a sport, simply identify it as such for the sake of the student.

That is another losing battle. Taekwondo is already identified as a "sport" using the Do identifier. Jutsu is the suffix used for arts used in warfare, at least in Japan. Jujitsu. Kenjutsu. Etc. On the other hand, those which are not used for that purpose are identified with the Do suffix. Judo, a sport. Kendo, a sport. Karatedo, another sport which may be included in the 2020 Olympics. And Taekwondo. If you wish to distance yourself from "martial sports" like Judo, Kendo, Karatedo or Taekwondo, then change the suffix of your art to Jutsu, or the Korean equivilent, Sool.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Ok, let use some numbers. Kukkiwon poom and dan promotions went from 1.8 million in 1987 to 7 million last year, effectively quadrupling the number of Kukkiwon poom and dan holders in less than 25 years. How many people have those in your circle promoted?




That is another losing battle. Taekwondo is already identified as a "sport" using the Do identifier. Jutsu is the suffix used for arts used in warfare, at least in Japan. Jujitsu. Kenjutsu. Etc. On the other hand, those which are not used for that purpose are identified with the Do suffix. Judo, a sport. Kendo, a sport. Karatedo, another sport which may be included in the 2020 Olympics. And Taekwondo. If you wish to distance yourself from "martial sports" like Judo, Kendo, Karatedo or Taekwondo, then change the suffix of your art to Jutsu, or the Korean equivilent, Sool.

I have no doubt the growth in "independent" tkd clubs has also grown at a huge rate, although there is obviously no way to get exact numbers on it. There is still a huge market out there for tkd practitioners wanting to learn "martial art" tkd and not "sport tkd". I train at at a "martial art" tkd school and the majority of our new members are "sport" tkdists who come over to us to learn the "martial" side. I dont read too much at all into the whole "do" and "jutsu" stuff, the fact of the matter is there are tkd schools that teach how to fight and tkd schools that teach the sport, and both are great, its just up to the individual to find whats right for them. To suggest most people want the 'sport' side seems a little off the mark to me.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Ok, let use some numbers. Kukkiwon poom and dan promotions went from 1.8 million in 1987 to 7 million last year, effectively quadrupling the number of Kukkiwon poom and dan holders in less than 25 years. How many people have those in your circle promoted?

I'm glad you mentioned this Glenn, I was thinking about it just this morning. I agree, lets take a look at some numbers, but with an eye towards a closer examination. Posted last year in a thread on the KKW by ArchTKD;

I've got a copy of stats I pulled from the Kukkiwon back in 2001, which in part state the following:

1. There were a total of 1,649,592 Poom holders (1st Poom - 4th Poom) worldwide. Of those 1,589,517 where in Korea

2. There were a total of 2,951,778 Dan holders (1st-9th). 2,775,932 of those were in Korea.

3. There was a total of 216 9th Dans worldwide back then Of those 179 were in Korea.

4. There was a total of 38,140 4th dans worldwide. Of those 33,592 where in Korea.

5. Back then, the US (No. 2 in total poom and dan holders from leader Korea) had a total of 28,653 Kukkiwon 1st dans; 7,273 2nd Dans, 2,718 3rd Dans; 1052 4th Dan and 372 5th Dans. (I don't have data for other dans.

Now these numbers are from 2001. If anyone has 2011-2012 numbers, that are verified, we can certainly take a close look at them. Using the above stats, as published by the KKW, over 90% of the Dan holders are inside Korea. The bulk of the people training in Korea, as stated by people that have been there, are children. These children get a BB in about a year. We can translate the % to more current numbers if anyone has them, but I don't think it will have changed that dramatically. The essense is that the bulk of KKW certs are to Korean school children. And then there is a certain % that goes to people that have been handed a KKW cert just to get the numbers up outside of Korea. These would be the people that don't know, or desire to know anything about the KKW curriculum but have been provided with a means to obtain additional wall candy from instructors such as yourself that didn't, in your own words, place any restrictions. The rest, which is a very small % of the total would be adult practitioners that desired sport certification.

This also includes the myriad of kids that at one trained in sport TKD, got a certificate at 5 to 10 years of age and then dropped out to pursue soccer. It is a highly inflated number that really holds very little of factual value. I'm really surprised you would try to make it as something that it clearly isn't.

Another consideration to add, in the 'west' it would cost little Johnny's parents around what for a 1st Dan in the KKW? About $70 or $80. Okay, that's fine. Inside Korea, does it cost little Lee's parents the same equivelant for the same piece of paper? Is it less? Is it a LOT less? Is it given out for practically nothing to bolster the numbers further? Just a thought to consider.

The movement towards self-defense has grown dramatically. No, I don't have numbers to provide, but if I did they wouldn't be inflated on school children inside a particular country, nor inflated on those that are no longer active participants.

That is another losing battle. Taekwondo is already identified as a "sport" using the Do identifier. Jutsu is the suffix used for arts used in warfare, at least in Japan. Jujitsu. Kenjutsu. Etc. On the other hand, those which are not used for that purpose are identified with the Do suffix. Judo, a sport. Kendo, a sport. Karatedo, another sport which may be included in the 2020 Olympics. And Taekwondo. If you wish to distance yourself from "martial sports" like Judo, Kendo, Karatedo or Taekwondo, then change the suffix of your art to Jutsu, or the Korean equivilent, Sool.

Why do you continue to see things as a battle, rather than a serious discussion on a topic of interest? I don't see it as a battle. I don't see it as 'us' vs. 'them'. Perhaps you shouldn't either. At any rate, as stated above, the difference between Do and Jutsu isn't what it used to be and really isn't a serious consideration for most.

 

[puunui]

Ok, so no numbers, and you ask us to ignore the development of do vs. jutsu arts and its significance. Got it.