Proper etiquette when you accidentally pick up your opponent

[Kung Fu Wang]

So should I just bring a gun to my class and shoot everyone who pulls guard on me? Something tells me if people did that, there would only be 3 BJJ practitioners in the world, and they would all be in prison.

If you don't use jump guard, or pull guard on me, I'll not use body slam. Is that a fair game?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I do get wang's point here. A jumping guard is a bad idea specifically because of the slam. If you take out the slam, you're making a technique artificially effective. If the goal of a martial sport is to safely allow people to train for fighting (as is often stated), then the jumping guard should also be banned, if it's counter is.

Incidentally, even if that's not the goal, I think it should still probably be banned if the concern is injury, as it increases the risk of harm on its own by opening you up to an intentional slam or accidental fall.

Some tournaments do disallow jumping guard (at least for lower ranks) for that very reason and also because the jumper can cause injury to their partner if they do it wrong. (Pulling guard is still allowed.)

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Some tournaments do disallow jumping guard (at least for lower ranks) for that very reason and also because the jumper can cause injury to their partner if they do it wrong. (Pulling guard is still allowed.)

Yeah the injury to the partner was what I was thinking with accidental fall. Though either could get injured.
And pulling guard seems fine. I don't believe it has any higher chance of risk, and there are a lot of ways to handle it without a slam, unlock jumping guard.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

(Pulling guard is still allowed.)

Body slam is allowed in Chinese wrestling. This is why all Chinese wrestlers know how to use both arms to protect the head.

 

[Cynik75]

Standing up in closed guard is a perfectly valid approach to breaking the guard.

One od my favorite ways especially with lighter oponents (usually girls). Do not slam them and everything will be ok. Oponents have a few way to stop picking them up or to sweep standing person so it is normal part of the game.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The "leg twist" technique is used to prevent your opponent from picking you up.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

And pulling guard seems fine. I don't believe it has any higher chance of risk,

In one wrestling match, I didn't release my grips on time. My opponent thought I used pull guard on him. He dropped his elbow straing down on my heart with his body weight behind. I stood up. Suddently everything turned dark in my eyes. I fell back down again. I almost got killed that day.

When you use pull guard, you have no protection on your head, neck, chest, and groin. Any elbow drop or knee drop can be dangerous.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Body slam is allowed in Chinese wrestling. This is why all Chinese wrestlers know how to use both arms to protect the head.

That sort of "slam" (throw) is perfectly legal in BJJ competition. What's prohibited (in most tournaments) is picking up and slamming someone who has you in their closed guard or who is attempting a submission like an armbar or triangle choke. The concern is that the person being slammed is more likely to land on their head or neck and thus suffer serious injury than they would from a regular throw like the one in your video.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

When you use pull guard, you have no protection on your head, neck, chest, and groin. Any elbow drop or knee drop can be dangerous.

When you use pull guard incorrectly, you have no protection on your head, neck, chest, and groin. Pulling guard correctly negates that danger.

Fixed that for you.

(That said, I'm not a fan of guard pulling other than in certain types of sport competition where the rules favor it. In a real fight, if we go to the ground I want to be on top. Guard is for equalizing the situation if I lose the battle for top position. I don't want to be there voluntarily.)

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

When you use pull guard incorrectly, you have no protection on your head, neck, chest, and groin. Pulling guard correctly negates that danger.

In jacket wrestling, if

- you left hand grabs on my right collar, your right hand grabs on my left collar.
- My right hand grabs on your right collar, my left hand grabs on your right arm.

When you use pull guard on me, how do you prevent me from dropping my right forearm on your throat?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

In jacket wrestling, if

- you left hand grabs on my right collar.
- Your right hand grabs on my left collar.
- My right hand grabs on your right collar.

When you use pull guard on me, how do you prevent me from drop my right forearm on your throat?

My first step would typically be to put one foot on your hip before I sat down, thus controlling your ability to put any sort of weight on me. Also I'd usually have a grip on your sleeve rather than both hands on your collar.

There are other possible approaches, but they all involve maintaining control of your body in such a way that you can't just land hard portions of your anatomy onto me.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

My first step would typically be to put one foot on your hip before I sat down,

In the following clip, his right elbow is so close to his opponent's face. If his opponent uses pull guard on him, his right forarm can easily drop on top of his opponent's throat.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

In the following clip, his right elbow is so close to his opponent's face. If his opponent uses pull guard on him, his right forarm can easily drop on top of his opponent's throat.

That would be a terrible position to pull guard from. Don't pull guard with someone's elbow in your face.

Pulling guard is just like throwing someone. You have to set it up and execute it correctly or you'll get yourself in trouble. It's not just grabbing someone and pulling them down on top of you.

 

[skribs]

If you don't use jump guard, or pull guard on me, I'll not use body slam. Is that a fair game?

If I pull guard on you - a technique with relatively low risk of injury to yourself, it's fair for you to slam me?

Jumping guard is something that a lot of schools frown on. For example, Danaher bans it in his gyms because of the risk of injury to the person you're jumping on. Jumping guard is often illegal at lower belts in BJJ tournaments. Slams are illegal for higher belts.

The "leg twist" technique is used to prevent your opponent from picking you up.

Very different situation than when you're in guard.

When you use pull guard incorrectly, you have no protection on your head, neck, chest, and groin. Pulling guard correctly negates that danger.

Fixed that for you.

(That said, I'm not a fan of guard pulling other than in certain types of sport competition where the rules favor it. In a real fight, if we go to the ground I want to be on top. Guard is for equalizing the situation if I lose the battle for top position. I don't want to be there voluntarily.)

My professor has said it's his favorite position, and I think he's very sport-minded in his approach. I tend to pull guard in situations where we've been wrestling for a minute already with nobody managing to get a take-down.

In the following clip, his right elbow is so close to his opponent's face. If his opponent uses pull guard on him, his right forarm can easily drop on top of his opponent's throat.

No, it can't. Well, maybe it can. But not really.

The first thing I notice is both of them have a grip that is going to make that difficult. The person who starts on the right and ends on the left is pushing on the opponent's elbow. If he still has that elbow, he's going to be framed to prevent it from dropping. If the person who starts on the right pulls guard, then he's got the sleeve of his opponent. He can use this to leverage against that as well.

But even then, you probably won't be in a good position for that anyway. When standing, you are equal in height. When your opponent has you in guard, they are "taller" than you, in that it's very difficult to get your head near their head. Their hips keep your hips back, which keeps your torso and arms further back. In order to try and drop the elbow onto your opponent's throat, you are going to be stretched out to be way off balance. Unless you're a foot taller than your opponent, this isn't really how it works. You're not choking them. You're getting swept.

All of these assume that both fighters aren't adjusting their hand positions during the guard pull. That the person pulling guard won't adjust to defend his neck, or that the person on top isn't going to change to a grip that's less dangerous once you're in guard.

I'm just a white belt in BJJ, but even I know that you're not at risk of being choked from the person on top when you pull guard. We start in that position all the time, and even with people a foot taller than me, I've never been in a position to be choked when I did.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Here's one good way to set up a guard pull. You'll note that the foot in the hip/stomach prevents the opponent from dropping his weight on you with an elbow or knee.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

That would be a terrible position to pull guard from. Don't pull guard with someone's elbow in your face.

Pulling guard is just like throwing someone. You have to set it up and execute it correctly or you'll get yourself in trouble. It's not just grabbing someone and pulling them down on top of you.

Agree with you 100% on this.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Here's one good way to set up a guard pull. You'll note that the foot in the hip/stomach prevents the opponent from dropping his weight on you with an elbow or knee.

At 3.50, A's left foot is on B's belly. B's left foot can step on A's groin.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

At 3.50, A's left foot is on B's belly. B's left foot can step on A's groin.

This attempt will more than likely result in B getting thrown. Remember that at this moment Keenan (A) is slowing down and pausing for the sake of explaining details. The entry should actually be performed with significant momentum and pulling of B over B's right foot as if attempting a Tomoe Nage (see the video at :25). What turns it into a guard pull rather than a throw is B recognizing the danger and settling his weight backwards for stability. If he steps forward with his left foot, then he's helping himself to get thrown.

 

[drop bear]

I do get wang's point here. A jumping guard is a bad idea specifically because of the slam. If you take out the slam, you're making a technique artificially effective. If the goal of a martial sport is to safely allow people to train for fighting (as is often stated), then the jumping guard should also be banned, if it's counter is.

Incidentally, even if that's not the goal, I think it should still probably be banned if the concern is injury, as it increases the risk of harm on its own by opening you up to an intentional slam or accidental fall.

This is why BJJ gyms have mat enforcers. You want to be 100% then they are they guys for you to roll with.

Otherwise artificial is complex.

So here for example if you wanted to allow slams. I would have also removed tapping out.


And it is not about banned or not banned. And more about is the result worth the damage. So I don't do a lot of high amplitude throws in sparring even though I am legally allowed to.

Sometimes I eat crap for that. And they win that roll.

But the aim isn't really to winn all the time and more to explore the space.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Since I teach BJJ from more of a martial arts perspective than a sport standpoint, I strongly encourage my students not to allow themselves to be picked up. Since I want my students to train without injury, I only let them practice slamming with the use of a crash pad.

Their martial arts skills will be better for it. My personal thoughts is that some things that are illegal should be allowed in sports in order to get that teaching that you give. "Don't allow someone to pick you up" I feel the same way with Kung Fu striking. But I understand. that sport is one thing self defense is another. As someone who doesn't like to fight on the ground. Learning how not to be picked up would be vital to how I fight. I won't become less skilled for knowing how to do that.

But that's just me so it's not a big deal unless I'm the one teaching someone else lol.