In your opinion, is belt reciprocity a good or bad thing?

[Hot Lunch]

I’m not a fan of counting hours. However, I believe a willingness to put in training time on one’s own, outside of the time spent in class in the dojo, is essential if one wishes to develop significant skill. As a beginner, a student needs constant guidance for a while. But as one progresses it becomes more important that they take ownership of their training and the time spent training on their own becomes more important than the time in the dojo. Class time is for learning. Training time outside of class is for putting in the reps and the hard work required for progress.

And even a beginner ought to be training at home, from day one.

Becoming skilled in the martial arts requires a commitment including a willingness to shape one’s life around the training. It should not take over your life, but it will be a significant part of how you spend your time and energy, even outside of the school.

Right, I have no problem with instructors eyeballing the frequency at which each student shows up in order to assess their level of engagement. But I've actually taken time off work to attend day classes, and have rescheduled family activities in the evenings (thus, causing problems at home) in order to get the hours in. It's when I realized that I was prioritizing MA training over my family and my job that I realized a change was needed.

 

[Jeff Webb]

I think that is largely because you don't train TKD. A high level KKW player could be in real trouble were they to go to a non-KKW school, where people will punch you in the nose if you spar with your hands down. But they're still a high level player.

My thoughts. Got my 1st Degree in TKD in '86. We were a tournament school and I wanted to learn to fight. Went to my Kenpo school where no point fighting occurred. Sparring was continuous with control to the face but still pretty brutal. Black Belt tests you had to fight every Black Belt that showed up for your test, then after they beat the crap out of you, you had to take them all out to dinner. Welcome to the club. Oh and when I was discussing joining this Kenpo school I asked the owner/head instructor (Shifu) what belt he would like to me wear, white? my black belt? He said he didn't care, people would know what belt I am by my techniques and fighting abilities on the floor. I still run my own school this way today.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Right, I have no problem with instructors "eyeballing" the frequency at which each student shows up in order to assess their level of engagement. But I've actually taken time off work to attend day classes, and have rescheduled family activities in the evenings (thus, causing problems at home) in order to get the hours in. It's when I realized that I was prioritizing MA training over my family and my job that I realized a change was needed.

Was there a limit where you needed to get x hours in 3 months, or was it open where once you hit x hours you could test?

If the first, I'd probably leave that school as well.

If the second, that sounds reasonable to me. Time spent training is a better measurement than time in rank, and if you rank up more slowly, that's even better IMO. I'd rather go slow and have a foundation at each rank than becoming 'advanced' quickly, and having flaws in my foundation.

 

[Flying Crane]

Right, I have no problem with instructors "eyeballing" the frequency at which each student shows up in order to assess their level of engagement. But I've actually taken time off work to attend day classes, and have rescheduled family activities in the evenings (thus, causing problems at home) in order to get the hours in. It's when I realized that I was prioritizing MA training over my family and my job that I realized a change was needed.

Were you required to do this? Did the instructor tell you that if you did not attend day classes or if you missed the evening sessions that you would be blocked from instruction or somehow blacklisted?

 

[skribs]

Sure. I'm also not much of a fan of hard-coded time in rank requirements. I prefer guidelines to rules.

This is one of the reasons why I would prefer to open my own school unaffiliated. The bigger your organization, the more controls are put in place to establish parity between schools. The more controls that are in place, the less flexibility you get in how to deal with things on a case-by-case basis.

The obvious counter-arguments are that the controls that are in place help give credibility and help keep you accountable to a set of standards, and also that parity can help when transferring from one school to another, or in a tournament setting. I don't think those are worth it when I'm not 100% onboard with the KKW forms or the sparring rules. (I'm 90% onboard, but not 100%).

 

[Hot Lunch]

Was there a limit where you needed to get x hours in 3 months, or was it open where once you hit x hours you could test?

If the first, I'd probably leave that school as well.

If the second, that sounds reasonable to me. Time spent training is a better measurement than time in rank, and if you rank up more slowly, that's even better IMO. I'd rather go slow and have a foundation at each rank than becoming 'advanced' quickly, and having flaws in my foundation.

Testing for lower kyu ranks was every month, and for the upper kyu ranks every three months. As long as you had your hours in by the upcoming test cycle, you could test. Otherwise, you'd have wait for the next test cycle if you have the hours by then.

As for the speed of promotion, it's about the same at the dojo that I now attend (three months for every kyu rank, but there's a lower number of kyu ranks), the only difference being that I get to prioritize MA training exactly where it needs to be prioritized in my life. If promotion needs to be slowed, in my opinion, it needs the be the result of the instructor making a situational judgement call, and not because of systems put in place.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Testing for lower kyu ranks was every month, and for the upper kyu ranks every three months. As long as you had your hours in by the upcoming test cycle, you could test. Otherwise, you'd have wait for the next test cycle if you have the hours by then.

As for the speed of promotion, it's about the same at the dojo that I now attend (three months for every kyu rank, but there's a lower number of kyu ranks), the only difference being that I get to prioritize MA training exactly where it needs to be prioritized in my life. If promotion needs to be slowed, in my opinion, it needs the be the result of the instructor making a situational judgement call, and not because of systems put in place.

Ah. Then I have no issues with the way he is doing it. I agree my preference is a situational judgment call, but there are legitimate reasons not to do that (mostly if you're in an organization or have a large enough school you can't make that judgment).

There is no need to change your priorities, it's just a matter of waiting a month (or 3) to test-neither of which should have a negative impact on your martial arts journey. Like I said, to me not testing as often as others who train more than you is actually a positive impact.

 

[Jeff Webb]

I think there has to be a minimum number of classes attended to move through all the ranks below Black Belt in addition to a lot of practicing at home.. It's not about just learning moves, new forms, a few new self defenses, it's learning all the other things that are taught and shown in class that aren't on your belt requirements sheets. How to spar, when to attack, how to defend, all these things students learn through time on the floor, experience, that add to their abilities. I can teach someone all the forms and kicks in a year. Are they a black belt? Not at my school. Also they learn to teach by being in class, listening to the Black Belts on how to describe motions and techniques, learning how to teach in their own fashion. Nothing equates to time on the floor, being in class, kicking, training, listening, and trying new things. What works for you in sparring may not work for someone else. You won't figure this out at home shadow boxing. Time on the mat also teaches you what other people are doing during sparring, how do you react to all the different things you are seeing. All this coming from a guy who got his 4th Dan in 2002, 5th Dan in 2014 (Yes training and teaching the whole time but rank just wasn't that important to me) and 6th in 2020. It takes about 5 years at my school for students to get to Black Belt. Also I make my 1st Dans train for 3 years to get to 2nd, 4 years to get to 3rd, etc. At 2nd Dan you should be able to run my school for me if need be. It's a journey and IMHO everyone needs to view it as a journey.

 

[Hot Lunch]

Ah. Then I have no issues with the way he is doing it. I agree my preference is a situational judgment call, but there are legitimate reasons not to do that (mostly if you're in an organization or have a large enough school you can't make that judgment).

There is no need to change your priorities, it's just a matter of waiting a month (or 3) to test-neither of which should have a negative impact on your martial arts journey. Like I said, to me not testing as often as others who train more than you is actually a positive impact.

In some ways, I worry that it might be a money grab. If you're not going to have the hours by the time the test comes, purchasing private lessons by the hour is also an option. Many people have done that. I've even had to purchase a one hour private lesson for my daughter, since she was unable to train one day because she showed up to class without a facemask during the pandemic.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

In some ways, I worry that it might be a money grab. If you're not going to have the hours by the time the test comes, purchasing private lessons by the hour is also an option. Many people have done that. I've even had to purchase a one hour private lesson for my daughter, since she was unable to train one day because she showed up to class without a facemask during the pandemic.

Why? Why not just wait until the next test?

 

[Flying Crane]

In some ways, I worry that it might be a money grab. If you're not going to have the hours by the time the test comes, purchasing private lessons by the hour is also an option. Many people have done that. I've even had to purchase a one hour private lesson for my daughter, since she was unable to train one day because she showed up to class without a facemask during the pandemic.

I guess I don’t understand the dilemma. If you don’t have the hours in by the time the test comes up, you simply don’t test and you wait for the next cycle while you continue to train like normal. No need to purchase private lessons if they are expensive or you don’t feel they are helpful or otherwise worth the cost. You simply keep training like normal and you test a couple months later.

Was the teacher pushing you unreasonably to stay in the upcoming testing cycle? Was he demanding sacrifice to keep “on schedule?” Or was he ok with you waiting for the next testing cycle?

 

[Hot Lunch]

Why? Why not just wait until the next test?

Over one hour?

 

[Flying Crane]

Over one hour?

Sure, if that requirement is a hard and fast rule and the teacher refuses to bend it. What’s the harm? A couple more months of training? Probably all of us could benefit from that on every test we have taken. It isn’t the end of the world. There should be no hurry here, it isn’t a race.

 

[Hot Lunch]

I guess I don’t understand the dilemma. If you don’t have the hours in by the time the test comes up, you simply don’t test and you wait for the next cycle while you continue to train like normal. No need to purchase private lessons if they are expensive or you don’t feel they are helpful or otherwise worth the cost. You simply keep training like normal and you test a couple months later.

Was the teacher pushing you unreasonably to stay in the upcoming testing cycle? Was he demanding sacrifice to keep “on schedule?” Or was he ok with you waiting for the next testing cycle?

At the lower ranks, it wouldn't be an issue since the test was every month. But higher up, having to wait three whole months over a few hours seems like a waste. In any case, I made the move that I needed to make. Based on various conversations that I've had in many other places, hours requirements doesn't seem to be the norm in MA training.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Over one hour?

Sure.

At the lower ranks, it wouldn't be an issue since the test was every month. But higher up, having to wait three whole months over a few hours seems like a waste. In any case, I made the move that I needed to make. Based on various conversations that I've had in many other places, hours requirements doesn't seem to be the norm in MA training.

At higher kyus, there should be enough material for you to work on for 3 months.

I think part of the disconnect is "3 whole months". Not sure how long you've been training, but many of the people on this site have hundreds of months of training (personally I'm a bit above 300 months, with no sign of that stopping soon). When taken into that perspective, 3 months to wait seems like a blip in training.

For additional reference, I could spend 3 months working on one long drill without running out of material. @Flying Crane , I know, is the same. That's why it seems bizarre to complain about waiting that long to test after meeting the requirements.

 

[Hot Lunch]

Sure.

At higher kyus, there should be enough material for you to work on for 3 months.

I think part of the disconnect is "3 whole months". Not sure how long you've been training, but many of the people on this site have hundreds of months of training (personally I'm a bit above 300 months, with no sign of that stopping soon). When taken into that perspective, 3 months to wait seems like a blip in training.

For additional reference, I could spend 3 months working on one long drill without running out of material. @Flying Crane , I know, is the same. That's why it seems bizarre to complain about waiting that long to test after meeting the requirements.

Well, an *additional* three months for being short of hours for the original three months.

My "complaint" isn't about the wait, but the level of involvement required. And the reason I put the word in quotations is because I view complaints as bringing up problems without pursuing solutions. Instead of complaining about adding three months, I crammed the hours. I got tired of cramming the hours, so I went to a place that doesn't have hours requirements. Much like the dojos that almost everyone else here goes to.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Well, an *additional* three months for being short of hours for the original three months.

My "complaint" isn't about the wait, but the level of involvement required. And the reason I put the word in quotations is because I view complaints as bringing up problems without pursuing solutions. Instead of complaining about adding three months, I crammed the hours. I got tired of cramming the hours, so I went to a place that doesn't have hours requirements. Much like the dojos that almost everyone else here goes to.

But there is no level of involvement required, beyond patience.

 

[Hot Lunch]

But there is no level of involvement required, beyond patience.

However we want to put it, it's not my problem anymore (thank God).

 

[Dirty Dog]

My thoughts. Got my 1st Degree in TKD in '86. We were a tournament school and I wanted to learn to fight. Went to my Kenpo school where no point fighting occurred. Sparring was continuous with control to the face but still pretty brutal. Black Belt tests you had to fight every Black Belt that showed up for your test, then after they beat the crap out of you, you had to take them all out to dinner. Welcome to the club. Oh and when I was discussing joining this Kenpo school I asked the owner/head instructor (Shifu) what belt he would like to me wear, white? my black belt? He said he didn't care, people would know what belt I am by my techniques and fighting abilities on the floor. I still run my own school this way today.

Old timers have heard me say before that it's better to wear a white belt and have people wonder why, than to wear a black belt and have people wonder why.

 

[drop bear]

I was saying 7 years to get to 4th dan. Not to get from first dan to 4th dan. I'm aware of schools that have 1 year to get to 1st dan (and would be highly suspect of a school that allows that in less).
So 1 year to first. 1 more year to 2nd puts us at two years. 2 more years to 3rd puts us at 4 years. 3 more years to 4th puts us at 7 years to get to 4th dan from beginning of training.
But I was also just using that as a base minimum. My point was that at 7+ years you shouldn't need to be learning new forms; you should have more than enough info to train and master already. Personally, I think that should be true after 3-5 years, so long as its not a grappling focused system, and you attend regularly.

I thought it was designed like that as a matter of course. That top down style schooling where the higher rank you are the more you know.