Problems with "traditional arts" part 2

[jobo]

There are a number of reasons why the Okinawan people are the longest lived humans on the planet. And Karate is a huge part of daily life.

Their method of kumite sparring is healthy.
But their full contact tournaments are very aggressive and realistic.

You dont have to train in a way that reduces your years, or quality of life. The Okinawan culture proves this.

Of the 5 places the have the longest living people only Okinawa has karate as part of their culture, it would be somewhat wrong therefore to take that as a Main reason for their longevity, With out considering other possibles

The common factors between the different cultures are a healthy diet , an out doOr it life style and a strong sense of community, and 4 of the 5 are relatively small islands , the 5th being an isolated religious community,which isolated them from other cultures to some degree, and that isolation suggests a genetic markeR may be at play

 

[hoshin1600]

There are a number of reasons why the Okinawan people are the longest lived humans on the planet. And Karate is a huge part of daily life.

the major reason for the longevity of the Okinawan people is probably good genetics followed by a good diet. the second half of this statement needs to be qualified, only small portion of Okinawan's do karate. it would be a bit stereotypical to suggest all Okinawan's or all "Asian" people do martial arts.

well old school kumite sparring in Okinawa isn't what you think it is.
it's more a drill than a free style sparing match.

this is a bit misleading or perhaps a bit misunderstood. in the west we have the tendency to translate kumi-te to sparring. this is not quite right. it can be said sparring is kumi-te but kumi-te is not always sparring. kumi-te also includes drills and pre arranged sequences. so from this perspective there is a continuum, 1 step drills...partner drills ,,,linked sequences...pre arranged sparring like sequences...then there is Jiyu kumi-te (i think i spelt that correct) which is "free" sparring. there is a progression within kumi-te but it does not directly correlate to ones rank or experience.

and old school (pre 1960) sparring is actually more like a street fight..no holds barred. there was no circle around, feel your opponent out...this is competition and old karate did not do this. in old okinawan sparring the concept of todays competition was not evolved yet...that came latter from main land Japan, mostly around the 1950,s and 1960's.

 

[now disabled]

the major reason for the longevity of the Okinawan people is probably good genetics followed by a good diet. the second half of this statement needs to be qualified, only small portion of Okinawan's do karate. it would be a bit stereotypical to suggest all Okinawan's or all "Asian" people do martial arts.



this is a bit misleading or perhaps a bit misunderstood. in the west we have the tendency to translate kumi-te to sparring. this is not quite right. it can be said sparring is kumi-te but kumi-te is not always sparring. kumi-te also includes drills and pre arranged sequences. so from this perspective there is a continuum, 1 step drills...partner drills ,,,linked sequences...pre arranged sparring like sequences...then there is Jiyu kumi-te (i think i spelt that correct) which is "free" sparring. there is a progression within kumi-te but it does not directly correlate to ones rank or experience.

and old school (pre 1960) sparring is actually more like a street fight..no holds barred. there was no circle around, feel your opponent out...this is competition and old karate did not do this. in old okinawan sparring the concept of todays competition was not evolved yet...that came latter from main land Japan, mostly around the 1950,s and 1960's.

From your last paragraph do you think and feel that things were effected by the occupation? What are your thoughts on did that lead to the concepts of today's competition ?

 

[hoshin1600]

From your last paragraph do you think and feel that things were effected by the occupation? What are your thoughts on did that lead to the concepts of today's competition ?

i need to define what you mean by "occupation" because it can be divided between Okinawa and Japan in general.
there is the actual American occupation of the Ryukyu island "The Typoon of Steel". American took control of Okinawa after WWII an only gave the Islands back to Japan in 1972 with more of a partnership then full ownership. and American presence is an ongoing political problem with the Okinawan's bearing the hardship.

Okinawa Under U.S. Occupation, 1945–1972
"The occupation force was composed not of combat troops who had seen at least a portion of the 1945 calamity but of “callow youth,” as one of their officers called them, who were “demanding [their] creature comforts from the armed services.” Or from the Okinawans, just under a hundred of whom they robbed, raped, otherwise assaulted and murdered during the first six months of 1949 alone: predictable distractions of occupation troops banished to the impoverished island.

Those youths felt condescension or scorn for the primitives eking out an existence without commerce or currency. Especially during the first years after the war, when family land was the sole source of self-support and the Army paid no compensation for its appropriations for the military use, scavenging natives lived in miserable poverty, some in areas ravaged by malaria, all in deep shock and bewilderment. The island became a heap of war surplus and smelly junk. A witness described an Assistant Secretary of the Army as “flabbergasted with what he saw” during an unannounced inspection in 1949. Some of the worst outrages were remedied, but native hardship remained severe until the late 1950s."

i think this statement says a lot about the Okinawan attitudes;
"Destitute Okinawans looked back at the war as confirmation that the island’s salvation lay in pacifism. Not all regretted having fought for Japan, especially some of the young and the elite. But a handful of exceptions proved the rule of enormous regret and corresponding mistrust of everything military. If most Japanese turned fervently antimilitarist after the war, most Okinawans, whose losses made the [Japanese] 32nd Army’s destruction seem almost slight by comparison, did so with stronger feeling."

so yes Okinawa's occupation effects the peoples attitudes and the were eager to embrace the "pacifist" view of karate that was started in the main land Japan.
we also have to look at the American population on the island and the fact that they pay good money to learn karate. it pays the bills!! American service men like competition. young men could are less about all the "lotus eating Zen crap" and want to learn to fight. especially the new breed of combative training that the American service provides is heavy on the MMA stuff and the ideological mentality that goes along with it. there is no doubt that there is heavy outside influence on karate, both American and Japanese.

the continuing American occupation is a heavy topic. then there is the Pre and post war effects of Japan as a whole that effected the development of karate...thats fodder for another post.

 

[jobo]

i need to define what you mean by "occupation" because it can be divided between Okinawa and Japan in general.
there is the actual American occupation of the Ryukyu island "The Typoon of Steel". American took control of Okinawa after WWII an only gave the Islands back to Japan in 1972 with more of a partnership then full ownership. and American presence is an ongoing political problem with the Okinawan's bearing the hardship.

Okinawa Under U.S. Occupation, 1945–1972
"The occupation force was composed not of combat troops who had seen at least a portion of the 1945 calamity but of “callow youth,” as one of their officers called them, who were “demanding [their] creature comforts from the armed services.” Or from the Okinawans, just under a hundred of whom they robbed, raped, otherwise assaulted and murdered during the first six months of 1949 alone: predictable distractions of occupation troops banished to the impoverished island.

Those youths felt condescension or scorn for the primitives eking out an existence without commerce or currency. Especially during the first years after the war, when family land was the sole source of self-support and the Army paid no compensation for its appropriations for the military use, scavenging natives lived in miserable poverty, some in areas ravaged by malaria, all in deep shock and bewilderment. The island became a heap of war surplus and smelly junk. A witness described an Assistant Secretary of the Army as “flabbergasted with what he saw” during an unannounced inspection in 1949. Some of the worst outrages were remedied, but native hardship remained severe until the late 1950s."

i think this statement says a lot about the Okinawan attitudes;
"Destitute Okinawans looked back at the war as confirmation that the island’s salvation lay in pacifism. Not all regretted having fought for Japan, especially some of the young and the elite. But a handful of exceptions proved the rule of enormous regret and corresponding mistrust of everything military. If most Japanese turned fervently antimilitarist after the war, most Okinawans, whose losses made the [Japanese] 32nd Army’s destruction seem almost slight by comparison, did so with stronger feeling."

so yes Okinawa's occupation effects the peoples attitudes and the were eager to embrace the "pacifist" view of karate that was started in the main land Japan.
we also have to look at the American population on the island and the fact that they pay good money to learn karate. it pays the bills!! American service men like competition. young men could are less about all the "lotus eating Zen crap" and want to learn to fight. especially the new breed of combative training that the American service provides is heavy on the MMA stuff and the ideological mentality that goes along with it. there is no doubt that there is heavy outside influence on karate, both American and Japanese.

the continuing American occupation is a heavy topic. then there is the Pre and post war effects of Japan as a whole that effected the development of karate...thats fodder for another post.

After the Japanese treatment of British and Australian captives I have no sympathy at all for how they were treated,

 

[TSDTexan]

Of the 5 places the have the longest living people only Okinawa has karate as part of their culture, it would be somewhat wrong therefore to take that as a Main reason for their longevity, With out considering other possibles

The common factors between the different cultures are a healthy diet , an out doOr it life style and a strong sense of community, and 4 of the 5 are relatively small islands , the 5th being an isolated religious community,which isolated them from other cultures to some degree, and that isolation suggests a genetic markeR may be at play

How did you infer that from the context of the response I had made ?

I never said karate alone gave them their longer life span.

in fact, I was stating that the way one trains can shorten life, or the quality of it.

And used the Okinawan people as an example of a group that has healthy training practices that dont do that.

Yes, their other lifestyle choices also effect population longevity.

 

[TSDTexan]

After the Japanese treatment of British and Australian captives I have no sympathy at all for how they were treated,

Okinawan people were subjugated by the Japanese.

They were a separate culture just like the Koreans.
Part of the terms of surrender were that Japan would release Korea, Okinawa and all territories that it had claimed during the war.

The Japanese gave up everything but the Okinawan islands. They sweettalked the Allied Forces GHQ to disregard the terms of surrender, and advised the US to build Military bases there.

Dont misdirect your antipathy to the tail.
Direct it to the Meji War Machine, and the Emperor

This guy. He could have order the fair treatment of allied POWs.

 

[hoshin1600]

After the Japanese treatment of British and Australian captives I have no sympathy at all for how they were treated,

As @TSDTexan said
the Okinawan's were there own kingdom, their own king, their own distinct language and politics. for the most part of history they were closer to the Chinese then the Japanese. besides most countries all have their own share of blood on their hands and their own horror stories. lets not forget England was more then happy to arrest and round up the Jew's and ship them on a direct train to Auschwitz. he who casts stones...you know...

but i digress..
the question was about how it effected the competition influx into karate.

 

[TSDTexan]

As @TSDTexan said
the Okinawan's were there own kingdom, their own king, their own distinct language and politics. for the most part of history they were closer to the Chinese then the Japanese. besides most countries all have their own share of blood on their hands and their own horror stories. lets not forget England was more then happy to arrest and round up the Jew's and ship them on a direct train to Auschwitz. he who casts stones...you know...

but i digress..
the question was about how it effected the competition influx into karate.

The Meji war machine... it wanted healthy conscripts. The war machine saw that, if you introduced Te into the elementary, middle, high schools and started youths into Martial arts training that had been dumbed down into something that could be taught quickly.... you would need to substitute a lot of things that were sacrificed in the overhaul.

So we get Kihon drilling, and dueling mindsets from Kendo, and Judo. Kumite changes from Yakusoku 約束 (Promise) Kumite as the standard practice into Jiyu 自由 (Free) Kumite... like randori with fists and kicks.

If anything we can lay this at the feet of the DNBK.
Combative Sports for the sake of militarizing society.

This is all an oversimplification, it was far more nuanced. But these are the things that stick out the most from my research.

 

[jobo]

As @TSDTexan said
the Okinawan's were there own kingdom, their own king, their own distinct language and politics. for the most part of history they were closer to the Chinese then the Japanese. besides most countries all have their own share of blood on their hands and their own horror stories. lets not forget England was more then happy to arrest and round up the Jew's and ship them on a direct train to Auschwitz. he who casts stones...you know...

but i digress..
the question was about how it effected the competition influx into karate.

England rounded up Jews and sent them to Poland ??????, or rather direct to Poland as you say, There was no direct train from England to Poland in the 40s the UK is an island you know,,, there's not now for that matter You have to change at paris, I think you making that up, Perhaps you have some sort of link To support this wild claim???? we were all ready at war with Germany when Auschwitz was built, ( 1940) 1942 before it was used to house jews)why would we send them Jews when they were bombing is do you think ?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The Meji war machine... it wanted healthy conscripts. The war machine saw that, if you introduced Te into the elementary, middle, high schools and started youths into Martial arts training that had been dumbed down into something that could be taught quickly.... you would need to substitute a lot of things that were sacrificed in the overhaul.

So we get Kihon drilling, and dueling mindsets from Kendo, and Judo. Kumite changes from Yakusoku 約束 (Promise) Kumite as the standard practice into Jiyu 自由 (Free) Kumite... like randori with fists and kicks.

If anything we can lay this at the feet of the DNBK.
Combative Sports for the sake of militarizing society.

This is all an oversimplification, it was far more nuanced. But these are the things that stick out the most from my research.

I do think that's a vast oversimplification. And a misunderstanding of what happened, and the reasons for it. I may be wrong in my conclusions - others here have far more knowledge on the nuances of the post-meiji changes in MA in Japan.

 

[TSDTexan]

I do think that's a vast oversimplification. And a misunderstanding of what happened, and the reasons for it. I may be wrong in my conclusions - others here have far more knowledge on the nuances of the post-meiji changes in MA in Japan.

Start about the 13 minute period.
A serious researcher speaking on the the competitive sportifiction of karate.
My own research led me to the same overall view of the events.

 

[TSDTexan]

I do think that's a vast oversimplification. And a misunderstanding of what happened, and the reasons for it. I may be wrong in my conclusions - others here have far more knowledge on the nuances of the post-meiji changes in MA in Japan.

It was under the authority of the DNBK, that we see the Okinawan art becoming the Japanese art.

The DNBK oversaw the creation of Judo, and Kendo.

Japanese Karate was officially born on December of 1933.

 

[hoshin1600]

The Meji war machine... it wanted healthy conscripts. The war machine saw that, if you introduced Te into the elementary, middle, high schools and started youths into Martial arts training that had been dumbed down into something that could be taught quickly.... you would need to substitute a lot of things that were sacrificed in the overhaul.

So we get Kihon drilling, and dueling mindsets from Kendo, and Judo. Kumite changes from Yakusoku 約束 (Promise) Kumite as the standard practice into Jiyu 自由 (Free) Kumite... like randori with fists and kicks.

If anything we can lay this at the feet of the DNBK.
Combative Sports for the sake of militarizing society.

This is all an oversimplification, it was far more nuanced. But these are the things that stick out the most from my research.

Karate was changed and used as propaganda. It's purpose was to instill national pride and foster the "samurai spirt" if you want to call it that. It was more a die for the cause brain washing institution. But non the less karate was high jacked for the war effort. However the sport mentality was mostly a case of survival after the war when America dictated all "national education PT" be stopped. This included martial arts. However on the grounds that karate and judo were deemed sports, it was allowed. Without this sport component martial arts would have been banned.

 

[TSDTexan]

Karate was changed and used as propaganda. It's purpose was to instill national pride and foster the "samurai spirt" if you want to call it that. It was more a die for the cause brain washing institution. But non the less karate was high jacked for the war effort. However the sport mentality was mostly a case of survival after the war when America dictated all "national education PT" be stopped. This included martial arts. However on the grounds that karate and judo were deemed sports, it was allowed. Without this sport component martial arts would have been banned.

You will find no disagreement from me in any statement made here in. I will specify, that the following phrase:

America dictated all "national education PT" be stopped. This included martial arts"

Be modified to the following:

Allied Forces GHQ dictated almost all "national education PT" be stopped. This included all Japanese Budo martial arts, and an exception was allowed for Korean Martial Arts."

Sources:

When American GHQ announced the martial arts ban in 1945, students of Kanken Toyama's Shūdōkan opened a dojo studio called Kanbukan (韓武舘) to avoid the ban.[2]

Attempting to create a more subtle name to disguise the organization, students used the name Kanbukan, which means "The Dojo of Martial Arts of Korea".

The director was a Korean called Geka Yung, while a top student of Toyama called Hiroshi Kinjo was the instructor.

He performed partner practice with direct blows using a Bōgu (防具 protector) from Kendo. This is Bōgutsuki karate.[1][3]

In 1951 the ban was relaxed and Kanbukan was renamed Renbukan. In 1954 Renbukan hosted the world's first national karate convention.

In 1959, with the purpose to nationally organize Karate, the organization established the All Japan Karatedo Federation (JKF) and made Shūdōkan its overall headquarters.[4]

The JKF appointed Choko Sai as chairman, Yasuhiro Konishi (Shindo Jinen-ryu) and Hiroshi Kinjo (Kanbukan) as vice-chairmen, Kanken Toyama and Hiroyasu Tamae (Otou-ryu) as Shihan, and Hironori Otsuka (Wado-ryu), Tatsuo Yamada(Nippon Kenpo Karate), Shinkin Gima (Shotokan-ryu), Isamu Tamotsu (Shorinji-ryu) and Tsuyoshi Chitose(Chito-ryu) as officers of JKF.

JKF Renbukai - Wikipedia

In short Koreans saved Japanese Karate!

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Start about the 13 minute period.
A serious researcher speaking on the the competitive sportifiction of karate.
My own research led me to the same overall view of the events.

I'll agree it's probable the military had these kinds of motives and looked to foster some of this. I don't think that's the only driving factor in what happened - the explanation ignores the motivations of the other proponents involved.

 

[TSDTexan]

I'll agree it's probable the military had these kinds of motives and looked to foster some of this. I don't think that's the only driving factor in what happened - the explanation ignores the motivations of the other proponents involved.

The river is wide, many are the headwaters. Some are large, some are small.

 

[hoshin1600]

@TSDTexan ,
I used the term National Education, but there is a particular term and wording that they used. I just can't remember it at the moment. I have posted about this topic before and I may have even posted a link to the actual document.

 

[now disabled]

@TSDTexan ,
I used the term National Education, but there is a particular term and wording that they used. I just can't remember it at the moment. I have posted about this topic before and I may have even posted a link to the actual document.

I think I know what you mean

Are you talking about the Imperial Rescript on Education ?

 

[now disabled]

@TSDTexan ,
I used the term National Education, but there is a particular term and wording that they used. I just can't remember it at the moment. I have posted about this topic before and I may have even posted a link to the actual document.

Or the Imperial Rescript to Soldiers and Sailors ?