Problems with "traditional arts" part 2

[Gerry Seymour]

There are a number of reasons why the Okinawan people are the longest lived humans on the planet. And Karate is a huge part of daily life.

Their method of kumite sparring is healthy.
But their full contact tournaments are very aggressive and realistic.

You dont have to train in a way that reduces your years, or quality of life. The Okinawan culture proves this.

Do the Okinawans do something different in their sparring?

 

[TSDTexan]

Do the Okinawans do something different in their sparring?

well old school kumite sparring in Okinawa isn't what you think it is.
it's more a drill than a free style sparing match.

At first it is very much like a demonstration.
over time the intensity is dialed up.

at advanced levels everything is done with full power, after a high level of control has been developed.

see this video for what I am talking about

Which is full power, all out continuously striking in a prearranged sequence (usually) Some instructors don't care about the order of the striking techniques as long as the specified list of techniques are applied.

Look at the head punching in the all Okinawan karate championship.very controlled. pulling the punch. it is understood

This is not the full contact All Okinawan Karate championship btw.

which will be this shown in this video

 

[TSDTexan]

I agree that pretty much any activity has risk and that martial arts are generally less risky than many others. I'm also pro-sparring, but @TSDTexan has a couple of points that I think are worth taking into consideration. My brain is kind of important to me and I'd rather not damage it any more than necessary. I think it is worth while to take things like MTBI/CTE into consideration when constructing drills and participating in sparring. I don't think that it means I shouldn't ever spar, just that I want to be smart about it to the degree that I can.

Unfortunately, the last time I looked into this sort of thing there wasn't a lot of conclusive info out there about how risky MA training is for the brain, nor what could be done to make sparring safe in this regard. This was specially true for the enthusiastic amateur rather than the professional. For the most part it looked like martial arts were pretty safe in terms of brain injury, but the data they were using didn't seem to differentiate between Tai Chi for seniors and the serious MMA gym. Even at the higher end of amateur and pro level, where there was some data, there seemed to be a lot of conflicting information.

At the time, some reports claimed that head gear and gloves reduced the risk of brain injury and others claimed they increased it because they allowed for a much great volume of low grade injury. I asked some friends who had done Muay Thai/Boxing/BJJ for a number of years what they thought and their opinions were all over the map. I found it interesting that I heard more than once that the only serious concussion that any of these guys had gotten was from a wild and unintentional knee or something similar in BJJ. I don't know where the research is now, but I'm guessing that it's progressed a lot as CTE was just entering the public consciousness last time I looked. If anyone has a clear-ish picture I'd love to hear it.

As @TSDTexan said, obviously you can reduce the risks of head injury if you make the head an illegal target in sparring or you spar with limited force, but that does ingrain habits that are counterproductive for self defense applications. If anyone here practices this way, what do you do in your training to overcome this issue?

good gloves, and a used quality full face motorcycle helmet with the visor removed or a bogu type helmet. I have several types of sparring.
like this

I allow light contact face and head. 10% power, with the requirement that when you successfully land those, you remember them, and head over to do bag work and visualize what landed and work the bag at full power for 10 strikes. Visualize the shot that landed first and then strike. Repeat.

also using focus pads. video related.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

My brain is kind of important to me and I'd rather not damage it any more than necessary.

This is why the "rhino guard" is created. It may not be able to protect your body. But it can protect your head better than anything else.

 

[Buka]

Maybe times have changed, I don't know, maybe it depends on where people are from - but the Okinawan karate friends I've had, Uechi, Shotokan, Kyokushin, Isshin and Goju spar really hard.

 

[TSDTexan]

Maybe times have changed, I don't know, maybe it depends on where people are from - but the Okinawan karate friends I've had, Uechi, Shotokan, Kyokushin, Isshin and Goju spar really hard.

Absolutely. This has been my own experience as well.

May I ask how many of them were kyu belts?

Typically, they (the Okinawan instructors that I have asked) dont want you to spar at full power until you have made progress in body conditioning.

 

[JowGaWolf]

If it ever only takes you one incident, you learn faster than me.

ha ha ha.. only for the serious mistakes that results in serious injury.

 

[Buka]

Absolutely. This has been my own experience as well.

May I ask how many of them were kyu belts?

Typically, they (the Okinawan instructors that I have asked) dont want you to spar at full power until you have made progress in body conditioning.

They were all Black Belts.

I have a great picture some place of a seminar that a friend taught. There's about fifty Black Belts in white gis and me and my buddy in black gis. We stuck out like flies in soup.

 

[now disabled]

They were all Black Belts.

I have a great picture some place of a seminar that a friend taught. There's about fifty Black Belts in white gis and me and my buddy in black gis. We stuck out like flies in soup.

Did you blame the with for mixing up the laundry and your gi turned black by mistake lol?...(no offence meant just I could imagine the looks you got )

 

[JowGaWolf]

You dont have to train in a way that reduces your years, or quality of life.

This is a big part of training for me. MMA fighters are learning this to be true as well.

I agree that pain is feedback we can learn from, but there's an entire spectrum of injuries. I just don't like it when students get mid-term(usually a few months) injuries that hinder their training.

Same here, but I don't know many people who do sparring who haven't been injured in some shape or form. Just like I don't know anyone who runs track who hasn't pulled a muscle, anyone who plays basketball who has never twisted their ankle, or a chef who has never cut their fingers with a knife. I think sometimes people forget that it's MARTIAL arts. Where martial arts is defined as,

• Wikipedia - Martial arts are codified systems and traditions of combat practices

Or MARTIAL is defined as:

• of, relating to, or suited for war or a warrior

When I taught kung fu, I would always be straight forward with the new students and potential students. I would tell them "You are going to get hurt, but as long as everyone follows the rules the serious injuries will be kept to a minimum and rare."

I personally don't like when I get injured because I can't train, but it's something that is normal in a most Physical Activities. Gymnastics, football, soccer, tennis, golf, swimming, baseball, lacrosse, diving, cycling, boxing, basketball and so on. All have athletes who have been injured badly enough where they weren't able to train. It just comes with the turf and the most you can really hope for with a student is that they don't keep making the same dangerous mistakes over and over. But if the instructor does see it, then he or she should pull the student from sparring until the student's skill level increases.

We always go light with new students, but sometimes beginners rush to respond to a technique and they injure themselves in the process. He tried to neutralize a slow kick quickly with a horrible technique with his fingers absorbing the kick. There was no escalation, just poor technique that resulted in injury.

Totally agree. I've seen that as well and try to snuff it out as quickly as possible, not only for the student's sake but also for the safety of other students. I think patience is the most difficult thing for many people to understand and learn. Especially in this "Instant satisfaction" environment that we live in.

 

[now disabled]

The point you make about instant satisfaction is a very valid one in the times we live in ...people want things yesterday and then complain when they don't get it ... Maybe that has to do with movies , books and the wonderful internet lol....

 

[JowGaWolf]

well old school kumite sparring in Okinawa isn't what you think it is.
it's more a drill than a free style sparing match.

The kick at 0:41 is the same kick I almost broke my arm on. My instinct isn't to hit it from the side. It is to hit down on the rising kick. Normally I'm good about not doing that but one day instinct came back in full force. It was a good block in terms of timing. But the technique used was incorrect.

 

[TSDTexan]

They were all Black Belts.

I have a great picture some place of a seminar that a friend taught. There's about fifty Black Belts in white gis and me and my buddy in black gis. We stuck out like flies in soup.

Then being dan grade, they would have conditioned bodies, able to take a hard kumite beating.

 

[TSDTexan]

The point you make about instant satisfaction is a very valid one in the times we live in ...people want things yesterday and then complain when they don't get it ... Maybe that has to do with movies , books and the wonderful internet lol....

now if only there was a martial art that could let you fight like Bruce Lee in enter the dragon that only required 10 minutes of training a week.
training that consists of eating apple fritters, a sipping on some high quality single malt scotch, and a few jumping Jack's, while glaring at a weight set, a makiwara, and a heavy bag.

and was Free to learn, and came with lots of titles and certificates!

 

[Gerry Seymour]

well old school kumite sparring in Okinawa isn't what you think it is.
it's more a drill than a free style sparing match.

I didn't really have a preconceived idea of what it would be.

At first it is very much like a demonstration.
over time the intensity is dialed up.

at advanced levels everything is done with full power, after a high level of control has been developed.

see this video for what I am talking about

Which is full power, all out continuously striking in a prearranged sequence (usually) Some instructors don't care about the order of the striking techniques as long as the specified list of techniques are applied.

Look at the head punching in the all Okinawan karate championship.very controlled. pulling the punch. it is understood

This is not the full contact All Okinawan Karate championship btw.

which will be this shown in this video

So, what is different in their sparring from what goes on outside Okinawa?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

One big problem with the traditional MA training is the distance. Many traditional MA styles like to start training from the arm contact range. It's not that easy to make your arm to contact on your opponent's arm. You first have to deal with your opponent's kick. When you try to contact your opponent arm, if he rotates his arm the same direction as your arm moving path, the arms will never be able to make any contact.

The best training distance is your opponent comes in from 6 feet away and tries to knock your head off. Why can't traditional MA make such training more realistic? You are going to spend your training time to develop something any way. Why not try to develop something more useful?

IMO, this is more realistic training range. A lot of thing can happen when you try to close that distance.

 

[TSDTexan]

One big problem with the traditional MA training is the distance. Many traditional MA styles like to start training from the arm contact range. It's not that easy to make your arm to contact on your opponent's arm. You first have to deal with your opponent's kick. When you try to contact your opponent arm, if he rotates his arm the same direction as your arm moving path, the arms will never be able to make any contact.

The best training distance is your opponent comes in from 6 feet away and tries to knock your head off. Why can't traditional MA make such training more realistic? You are going to spend your training time to develop something any way. Why not try to develop something more useful?

IMO, this is more realistic training range. A lot of thing can happen when you try to close that distance.

A lot of fights that I have seen happen started with a shove, or a mad guy poking his index finger in the face or chest of the other guy.
very close quarter.

Here is some application out of Nihanchi kata, also found in a few other kata as well.

some more grappling tuite in close

 

[now disabled]

This may not go down to well lol

Traditional MA ... where they not born out of a different time and age when requirements were very different? Could it not be that over the time span from formation to now things have been taken out or added in ? I mean what was relevant in the 16th or 17th cent at inception may be different to now. Also through the intervening years (I'm thinking Japan mostly and just my opinion) going from a period or periods of war and pretty much constant battle to a period of peace (Edo period) where almost complete central control was exerted could it be that certain concepts or "drills" were removed, being that they were deemed not necessary anymore?
Might also be worth taking into account that in the past MA wasn't as accessible to everyone as it is now, again Japan, just my opinion again but why would a person wish to get into empty hand arts when he could carry a sword (I'm talking Samurai class here) and was it even remotely possible that during that period that the lower classes actually studied any of the arts? I mean by that at recognized schools? I do not know for certain and I am no expert but I would think it unlikely (others with more knowledge will be able to correct that) thereby would the traditional schools not concentrate on what was in demand (or they were told was in demand) as opposed to what actually worked for the masses?
To me the traditional arts are and always have evolved etc (maybe not for the good or the bad) and it period dominant what they kept or dismissed. Could it be just a 21st cent ting that we are picking on the traditional arts as we do not see them as relevant in todays world? Or could it be that the students and masters of those arts/schools are either being so aloof and not interested in anything but what they were instructed to pass on or that they have written down they are unwilling to admit to flaws etc and not evolve ? Or could it be they are not interested in today they want to live in the past? Or is it they see themselves as guardians of what they are the keepers of and are afraid to evolve as they do not wish to be recorded as the one who changed and rocked the boat?
To my mind even fairly modern systems which have there roots in the past (modern being a loose term on this thread) have changed some fairly dramatically and from not that long ago (ie WWII as that did have an effect on certain arts in again Japan)

So what is Traditional in effect are we not just employing todays standards on Arts and systems that are out of context in time? Are we being overly hard on them?

I am no expert just have pondered on things I have seen written etc (not just here btw) and

 

[TSDTexan]

This may not go down to well lol

Traditional MA ... where they not born out of a different time and age when requirements were very different? Could it not be that over the time span from formation to now things have been taken out or added in ? I mean what was relevant in the 16th or 17th cent at inception may be different to now. Also through the intervening years (I'm thinking Japan mostly and just my opinion) going from a period or periods of war and pretty much constant battle to a period of peace (Edo period) where almost complete central control was exerted could it be that certain concepts or "drills" were removed, being that they were deemed not necessary anymore?
Might also be worth taking into account that in the past MA wasn't as accessible to everyone as it is now, again Japan, just my opinion again but why would a person wish to get into empty hand arts when he could carry a sword (I'm talking Samurai class here) and was it even remotely possible that during that period that the lower classes actually studied any of the arts? I mean by that at recognized schools? I do not know for certain and I am no expert but I would think it unlikely (others with more knowledge will be able to correct that) thereby would the traditional schools not concentrate on what was in demand (or they were told was in demand) as opposed to what actually worked for the masses?
To me the traditional arts are and always have evolved etc (maybe not for the good or the bad) and it period dominant what they kept or dismissed. Could it be just a 21st cent ting that we are picking on the traditional arts as we do not see them as relevant in todays world? Or could it be that the students and masters of those arts/schools are either being so aloof and not interested in anything but what they were instructed to pass on or that they have written down they are unwilling to admit to flaws etc and not evolve ? Or could it be they are not interested in today they want to live in the past? Or is it they see themselves as guardians of what they are the keepers of and are afraid to evolve as they do not wish to be recorded as the one who changed and rocked the boat?
To my mind even fairly modern systems which have there roots in the past (modern being a loose term on this thread) have changed some fairly dramatically and from not that long ago (ie WWII as that did have an effect on certain arts in again Japan)

So what is Traditional in effect are we not just employing todays standards on Arts and systems that are out of context in time? Are we being overly hard on them?

I am no expert just have pondered on things I have seen written etc (not just here btw) and

You raise a lot of points to address.
I think the big problem is that there is a lot of cultural issues (baggage) that is pre-loaded in most Asian traditional martial arts.

In the west, we have a predominantly nonconformist society that prizes individuality and free expression and is willing to challenge authority in the pursuit of truth and realism.

We don't take something just based on their word alone, we demand to see evidence that supports a truth claim.

This can be problematic especially in martial arts where school traditions, lineage traditions, organizational traditions and social traditions push a dont ask too many questions, dont make the teacher, or high ranking organizational officials lose face.
It's TRUE because we say it's TRUE....

So bad practices and the like get handed down, and the status quo maintains it.

This is where pressure testing and open communication in the rise of the western MMA has done a lot to cause a change.... adaptation and evolution.

Fix what's broken, or become extinct.

A lot of people don't see the need for long opening and closing ceremonies in order to learn a MA.
But some go to traditional martial arts because they want those social courtesies and traditions that help a person become a better person.

The want a "Do" because it fills an unspoken, felt need within.

The problem is there are thousands of scam artists willing to create shambala and let you learn an art that's 1000s of years old... that will make you powerful, and will even make you a black belt in 12 months if you sign this contract.
This is a bad thing.

But you have alternatives as well. Amid the confusion of many broken traditional MAs, you have good ones too.

as well as nontraditional ones

No-Gi BJJ as practiced in a number of north american gyms is culturally a western martial art.
A few gyms have no pomp and circumstance, no bowing, and the Brazilian and US Flags are decorative and have no rituals attached.

They are as western as fencing or boxing.

 

[now disabled]

You raise a lot of points to address.
I think the big problem is that there is a lot of cultural issues (baggage) that is pre-loaded in most Asian traditional martial arts.

In the west, we have a predominantly nonconformist society that prizes individuality and free expression and is willing to challenge authority in the pursuit of truth and realism.

We don't take something just based on their word alone, we demand to see evidence that supports a truth claim.

This can be problematic especially in martial arts where school traditions, lineage traditions, organizational traditions and social traditions push a dont ask to many questions, dont make the teacher, or high ranking organizational officials lose face.
It's TRUE because we say it's TRUE....

So bad practices and the like get handed down, and the status quo maintains it.

This is where pressure testing and open communication in the rise of the western MMA has done a lot to cause a change.... adaptation and evolution.

Fix what's broken, or become extinct.

A lot of people don't see the need for long opening and closing ceremonies in order to learn a MA.
But some go to traditional martial arts because they want those social courtesies and traditions that help a person become a better person.

The want a "Do" because it fills an unspoken, felt need within.

The problem is there are thousands of scam artists willing to create shambala and let you learn an art that's 1000s of years old... that will make you powerful, and will even make you a black belt in 12 months if you sign this contract.

I agree with your statements

The cultural aspect is imo very true as many westerners as you rightly point out don't fully "get" that.

Yes I agree that some are looking for the "DO" and a path that crux is do they understand the "DO" and if not are they then ready to shout that it all rubbish or the like?

The traditional arts to me are more of a lifetime study and not a path to becoming a super hero

Yes unfortunately there are a load of scams out there and claims of tradition that ummm are at best a leap of faith at worst a load of sh*t lol and in this day and age so many are looking for power and secrets it does cause a total balls up when they find out what they doing isn't exactly what they thought they were or indeed they have to apply this 1000 year old art and they find it ummm doesn't work lol or conversely if they are studying a true and legit traditional art they are unable to apply it to today (now that could be because it doesn't apply or the teacher hasn't taught properly in as much as saying how it could apply or they themselves are just not "good" enough - and that is the thing I feel is a very big problem people do not self evaluate themselves properly, they think cause they got a BB they are better than they are)