Problems with "traditional arts" part 2

[TSDTexan]

.

 

[KPM]

I would say some MA do not spar, nor should they.

I will give two examples
Kyudo and Iaido.

Both use sharp live steel.
I cannot see a means to safely engage in fully resisting arrows being shot at me, or someone quick drawcutting a 3 foot long two handed razor at me.

They are both effective martial arts, in their specific roles, without the needs of fully noncompliant and resisting opponents.

Many FMA styles are centered around use of a sharp blade. But they manage to figure out ways to safely spar using training substitutes.

 

[JowGaWolf]

He broke two of his fingers and is now out of training for a while because of it.

Accidents and getting hurt is part of learning, now that one student has become the best spokes person for "why you block a certain way." I'm not a beginner but from time to time, pain reminds me of why things are done a certain way and it usually only takes one or two incidents to drill it home.

Sparring is crucial, but there should be a basic understating of the fundamentals or they'll hurt themselves

Getting hurt is part of the learning process and it will happen from time to time. As long as the act of causing is managed and doesn't come from negligence. By this I mean, you should have a higher incident of people hurting themselves from time to time, than you do from students hurting each other (with the exceptions of joint locks and conditioning).

More experienced students should always play at the same level of the beginner by lowering power and speed as needed. If the student is unable to do this, then someone needs to monitor the sparring to make sure that things do not rise above a healthy level of sparring.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Which raises a question... why are the traditional Chinese martial arts being targeted at a higher rate then the Japanese ones?

I think you misread my comment. I meant the OP's comments in that area were targeted at the TCMA community (which he comes from, at least in part).

And this also raises a parallel question. Why do some forms of Japanese ju-jutsu get a lot more heat and criticism than other JJJs?

I'm not aware of that, but I'd expect it has to do with either exposure (lesser-known arts will have few detractors) or some specific technical bit about the JJJ in question.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I would say some MA do not spar, nor should they.

I will give two examples
Kyudo and Iaido.

Both use sharp live steel.
I cannot see a means to safely engage in fully resisting arrows being shot at me, or someone quick drawcutting a 3 foot long two handed razor at me.

They are both effective martial arts, in their specific roles, without the needs of fully noncompliant and resisting opponents.

If Kyudo isn't teaching defense against that arrow, then "sparring" wouldn't fit the art, anyway. Hunting would be a more appropriate test of the skills. Iaido absolutely can spar. There's no reason they can't put aside the live, sharp steel and spar with something different (bokken, the bamboo swords used in Kendo, or even unsharp iaito for light, technical sparring). This is akin to putting on gloves to spar, and disallowing moves that are most likely to injure your partner in some meaningful way. Whether that is useful to the art or not is a separate discussion.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I'm not a beginner but from time to time, pain reminds me of why things are done a certain way and it usually only takes one or two incidents to drill it home.

If it ever only takes you one incident, you learn faster than me.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Sparring is probably one of the most misunderstood components for MA beginners. What I've seen many times is new students too eager to begin sparring. They overlook the importance of learning the movements and techniques first. Not to say they need to master the techniques before sparring, but at least understand the fundamentals for safety reasons. Basic stances, break falls, etc.

For example, one of our beginners wanted to spar after class and he "blocked" a very slow kick with a "technique" we never taught him. He broke two of his fingers and is now out of training for a while because of it. I've checked kicks from beginners with my shin and unintentionally hurt them.

Sparring is crucial, but there should be a basic understating of the fundamentals or they'll hurt themselves. I agree that sparring or other additional training after class is a great idea. I sometimes ask my instructor if I can spar after class and he always obliges.

I don't see that so much, but it's probably because of the nature of the difference in curriculum. With grappling, the drills seem to satisfy that desire to interact and try stuff out, since every drill must be a 2-person drill.

 

[hoshin1600]

If Kyudo isn't teaching defense against that arrow, then "sparring" wouldn't fit the art, anyway. Hunting would be a more appropriate test of the skills. Iaido absolutely can spar. There's no reason they can't put aside the live, sharp steel and spar with something different (bokken, the bamboo swords used in Kendo, or even unsharp iaito for light, technical sparring). This is akin to putting on gloves to spar, and disallowing moves that are most likely to injure your partner in some meaningful way. Whether that is useful to the art or not is a separate discussion.

really? i might be in a ornery mood today so forgive me...but i expected more from you on this one.
Sparring within Iaido or hunting with a Yumi is about as appropriate as wiping your mouth with your tie after a messy meal.
yes the origins of the formal tie started as a napkin but to link any of these three concepts and activities together is totally missing the point.
just as you wouldnt sit down to write a short story using calligraphy. (i wonder if i can change my MT font to calligraphy?)

 

[marques]

On the other hand, some “modern” arts jump to the application, even competition with very little training (months) and very little skill. They risk their health in training, in preparation for and during competitions.

Some “modern” arts still follow the same patterns as the old ones. What you say is not exclusive of “traditional” arts.

Nothing is perfect, no one is perfect; it is really hard to find something balanced and convenient. :|

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

On the other hand, some “modern” arts jump to the application, even competition with very little training (months) and very little skill. They risk their health in training, in preparation for and during competitions.|

When I was a kid, I didn't learn how to swim. I read book and taught myself how to float. I went to a small river, soon I figured out how to swim. All my life I have never had any formal swimming lesson. But I can swim in the ocean for 2 miles without any problem.

If we compare swimming with MA training, we learn how to swim in the water, we don't learn how to swim on the dry land. We learn MA skill through partner drills. We don't learn MA skill through form.

The major problem of traditional MA is the timing is all wrong. When you are

- young, you want to accumulate as much sparring experience as possible.
- older, you will have the rest of your life to enhance your foundation.

Unfortunately, the traditional MA has this all in backward. A traditional MA guy may spend 20 years training to build his foundation. He may still think that he is not ready for sparring. When he is ready to spar, he may be too old.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

really? i might be in a ornery mood today so forgive me...but i expected more from you on this one.
Sparring within Iaido or hunting with a Yumi is about as appropriate as wiping your mouth with your tie after a messy meal.
yes the origins of the formal tie started as a napkin but to link any of these three concepts and activities together is totally missing the point.
just as you wouldnt sit down to write a short story using calligraphy. (i wonder if i can change my MT font to calligraphy?)

I'm only passingly familiar with either of those arts, so your point is probably over my head, Hoshin. My point was simply that there's a way to spar in one of those arts and possibility for a different way to "test" the skills involved. Whether those activities are appropriate to those arts or their aims, I have no idea.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Another problem of the traditional MA is that it use the AI "forward search" method. You start to build MA foundation before you even know what your goal is. IMO, the AI "backward search" that you define your goal, you then find a path to reach it is much better. For example, if your goal is "to be able to sweep down everybody on this plant." You will then find a MA style that can help you to develop "foot sweep". This way, you will never be restricted by any MA style.

When people said,

- My style doesn't do this.
- This is against my style principle.
- This will make my style un-pure.
- I agree with everything that you have said, but what does that have to do with my style?
- ...

That person just allows his MA style to put unnecessary restriction on himself.

 

[TSDTexan]

When I was a kid, I didn't learn how to swim. I read book and taught myself how to float. I went to a small river, soon I figured out how to swim. All my life I have never had any formal swimming lesson. But I can swim in the ocean for 2 miles without any problem.

If we compare swimming with MA training, we learn how to swim in the water, we don't learn how to swim on the dry land. We learn MA skill through partner drills. We don't learn MA skill through form.

The major problem of traditional MA is the timing is all wrong. When you are

- young, you want to accumulate as much sparring experience as possible.
- older, you will have the rest of your life to enhance your foundation.

Unfortunately, the traditional MA has this all in backward. A traditional MA guy may spend 20 years training to build his foundation. He may still think that he is not ready for sparring. When he is ready to spar, he may be too old.

There is a concern I have with the young consuming mass quantities ......

of sparring.


MTBI.
Mild traumatic brain injury, and regular traumatic brain injury. This is a brain dysfunction caused by an outside force, usually a violent blow to the head.
It's fairly commonCommon.
More than 200,000 US cases per year

Treatable by a medical professional
Requires a medical professional.

Lab tests or imaging often required
Traumatic brain injury often occurs as a result of a severe sports injury or car accident.
Immediate or delayed symptoms may include confusion, blurry vision, and concentration difficulty. Infants may cry persistently or be irritable.
Treatment may involve rest, medication, and surgery.


My big concern is young men and women have a lot of power, and puberty and the constant growth induced coordination issues.

When it comes to mbti, the injuries are cumulative and compounding. The more it gets damaged, the easier it is damaged and the NFL, and high school football associations in Texas are becoming very aware of this.

So to mitigate you can try to reduce head or face strikes in sparing, or spar using reduced power.
But those both have an effect on training.

In the real world, you will avoid punching someone in the face.

A very powerful argument can be made that in a real fight you should strike the opponent in the face and head, Early, Often and as Hard as you can without losing your center.

If Elon Musk could build us robotic sparing partners this would help.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Mild traumatic brain injury, ... More than 200,000 US cases per year.

- Soldiers die in the battle field.
- Swimmers die in the water.
- Mountain climbers die in the mountain.
- MA guys die in the ring (or on the mat).
- ...

We all choose our own life path.

 

[TSDTexan]

- Soldiers die in the battle field.
- Swimmers die in the water.
- Mountain climbers die in the mountain.
- MA guys die in the ring (or on the mat).
- ...

We all choose our own life path.

There are a number of reasons why the Okinawan people are the longest lived humans on the planet. And Karate is a huge part of daily life.

Their method of kumite sparring is healthy.
But their full contact tournaments are very aggressive and realistic.

You dont have to train in a way that reduces your years, or quality of life. The Okinawan culture proves this.

 

[Anarax]

Accidents and getting hurt is part of learning, now that one student has become the best spokes person for "why you block a certain way." I'm not a beginner but from time to time, pain reminds me of why things are done a certain way and it usually only takes one or two incidents to drill it home.

I agree that pain is feedback we can learn from, but there's an entire spectrum of injuries. I just don't like it when students get mid-term(usually a few months) injuries that hinder their training.

More experienced students should always play at the same level of the beginner by lowering power and speed as needed. If the student is unable to do this, then someone needs to monitor the sparring to make sure that things do not rise above a healthy level of sparring.

We always go light with new students, but sometimes beginners rush to respond to a technique and they injure themselves in the process. He tried to neutralize a slow kick quickly with a horrible technique with his fingers absorbing the kick. There was no escalation, just poor technique that resulted in injury.

 

[Anarax]

There are a number of reasons why the Okinawan people are the longest lived humans on the planet. And Karate is a huge part of daily life.

Their method of kumite sparring is healthy.
But their full contact tournaments are very aggressive and realistic.

You dont have to train in a way that reduces your years, or quality of life. The Okinawan culture proves this.

Well said, there's a fine line between training hard and training recklessly. Many pro-fighters have said their gyms have dialed back the sparring intensity and have a more technique-focused/strategic-focused sparring sessions. Though sparring is still an important part of their training, they've adopted methods to achieve the same result without the recklessness. Someone once said it's upgrading your software without damaging your hardware.

 

[TSDTexan]

Well said, there's a fine line between training hard and training recklessly. Many pro-fighters have said their gyms have dialed back the sparring intensity and have a more technique-focused/strategic-focused sparring sessions. Though sparring is still an important part of their training, they've adopted methods to achieve the same result without the recklessness. Someone once said it's upgrading your software without damaging your hardware.

Here is a very interesting perspective offered by a great in the martial arts, Hanshi Patrick McCarthy.

 

[MetalBoar]

- Soldiers die in the battle field.
- Swimmers die in the water.
- Mountain climbers die in the mountain.
- MA guys die in the ring (or on the mat).
- ...

We all choose our own life path.

I agree that pretty much any activity has risk and that martial arts are generally less risky than many others. I'm also pro-sparring, but @TSDTexan has a couple of points that I think are worth taking into consideration. My brain is kind of important to me and I'd rather not damage it any more than necessary. I think it is worth while to take things like MTBI/CTE into consideration when constructing drills and participating in sparring. I don't think that it means I shouldn't ever spar, just that I want to be smart about it to the degree that I can.

Unfortunately, the last time I looked into this sort of thing there wasn't a lot of conclusive info out there about how risky MA training is for the brain, nor what could be done to make sparring safe in this regard. This was specially true for the enthusiastic amateur rather than the professional. For the most part it looked like martial arts were pretty safe in terms of brain injury, but the data they were using didn't seem to differentiate between Tai Chi for seniors and the serious MMA gym. Even at the higher end of amateur and pro level, where there was some data, there seemed to be a lot of conflicting information.

At the time, some reports claimed that head gear and gloves reduced the risk of brain injury and others claimed they increased it because they allowed for a much great volume of low grade injury. I asked some friends who had done Muay Thai/Boxing/BJJ for a number of years what they thought and their opinions were all over the map. I found it interesting that I heard more than once that the only serious concussion that any of these guys had gotten was from a wild and unintentional knee or something similar in BJJ. I don't know where the research is now, but I'm guessing that it's progressed a lot as CTE was just entering the public consciousness last time I looked. If anyone has a clear-ish picture I'd love to hear it.

As @TSDTexan said, obviously you can reduce the risks of head injury if you make the head an illegal target in sparring or you spar with limited force, but that does ingrain habits that are counterproductive for self defense applications. If anyone here practices this way, what do you do in your training to overcome this issue?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

There is a concern I have with the young consuming mass quantities ......
View attachment 21581

of sparring.


MTBI.
Mild traumatic brain injury, and regular traumatic brain injury. This is a brain dysfunction caused by an outside force, usually a violent blow to the head.
It's fairly commonCommon.
More than 200,000 US cases per year

Treatable by a medical professional
Requires a medical professional.

Lab tests or imaging often required
Traumatic brain injury often occurs as a result of a severe sports injury or car accident.
Immediate or delayed symptoms may include confusion, blurry vision, and concentration difficulty. Infants may cry persistently or be irritable.
Treatment may involve rest, medication, and surgery.


My big concern is young men and women have a lot of power, and puberty and the constant growth induced coordination issues.

When it comes to mbti, the injuries are cumulative and compounding. The more it gets damaged, the easier it is damaged and the NFL, and high school football associations in Texas are becoming very aware of this.
View attachment 21580

So to mitigate you can try to reduce head or face strikes in sparing, or spar using reduced power.
But those both have an effect on training.

In the real world, you will avoid punching someone in the face.

A very powerful argument can be made that in a real fight you should strike the opponent in the face and head, Early, Often and as Hard as you can without losing your center.

If Elon Musk could build us robotic sparing partners this would help.

It's pretty easy to avoid in most sparring, though. Keep it light and technical, and pay special care to head/face shots (even disallowing them at times). Sparring doesn't have to have much power to be useful, and those who want to explore power don't need to do so every time.