Pressure Points

[Raewyn]

Who and what is DKI????

 

[Sarah]

Who and what is DKI????

Gearge Dillman Karate International

I know he does seminars and has videos about Pressure Points..I am unsure of the type of training Matt speaks of however!

 

[Matt Stone]

I find what we say interesting and think you make some good points.

I'm not trying to discount the entire body of information that DKI has to offer... However, the information they present is "color by number" pressure point theory. They toss about acupuncture shorthand terminology, making themselves sound very impressive and all, but again the exception is the individual that knows about acupuncture theory. If they knew acupuncture well at all, they'd realize that much of what they claim to be affecting the acupuncture points were really having little to no effect on the points but were far more likely affecting the normal, gross anatomy underlying the points...

I don’t know much about DKI so the opinions I have of course a based on limited knowledge.

As are mine! But I have yet to find any DKI exponent that was forthcoming in defending their theories, their training, their seminar instructional methods, etc... They get upset at questions being asked of them, they whinge about how they are being persecuted, and then they run away. They don't stand up for their professed skills and their adopted art form nor do they attempt to support their methods with any explanation of any kind. This is what causes me to believe that their methods are even more questionable than I would have cause to believe ordinarily...

Is it possible that these seminar's that you talk about (where people are standing still) are introductions to PP training, and not a real life fighting tech's??

Entirely possible, though improbable... Again, the DKI folks haven't done a good job of standing up for their training. Some have said that the immobile victim is used for instructional purposes. Fine. I don't attempt to have my students learn anything as I "home run" them with a new technique. However, when queried as to how they train outside of the seminar format, they claim they train with aggressive, resistant opponents but there is little evidence of that to be found... The 4th dan I trained with in Japan has had encounters with a number of DKI folks in person, and they have been tested and found wanting... Having suffered at this 4th dan's hands, I am very willing to take his word on the performance of those he encountered.

BLUF (Bottom Line Up Front), if it doesn't work on the mat when your opponent isn't REALLY trying to kill you, it will surely fail when he is... I don't want to risk that, do you?

 

[Matt Stone]

My big question has been...and remains...since the body is pretty much covered with acu-points, especially the sensitive parts, how can you NOT train in striking them if you train in striking a person at all? You can't even kick someone in the butt-crack without tagging some points. Try to find a "footprint" about the size of a forefist on the human face that doesn't have an acupoint on it.

Amen. There is a student in our club named Joe that is really fun to hit... He makes the most intriguing squeals and moans, and given that he is a very macho, 215 pound man, hearing him squeal in pain is really entertaining... Anyway, the vital point I like to hit most often is the one we refer to as "Joe." That's good enough, really. A real hit, a good hit, may well not need a vital point! Last time I took a shot to the liver, it was just a simple, well placed punch. No vital point (other than "the liver"), just a punch.

Round-kick the outside of the knee, and you're smacking some of the big points. Can't avoid it; they are just there, surrounding the lateral joint line and fibular head.

In our manuals, we have at least 8 different points surrounding the patella. The thing is, since each one is only about the size of a dime-quarter, if you kick one you will likely hit one or two others... at least!

It only takes 1 well-placed to get the job done.

Preach on, mah brutha!!! :uhyeah:

 

[Sarah]

Is it possible that you have just come across some 'not so good' DKI people.

Are you saying that all DKI training is rubbish or just parts of it.

I just don’t think it is necessary to come down so hard on DKI people because you don’t follow the some training?

 

[Raewyn]

Then I wish you well and hope you never a) are attacked for real by someone who intends to do you genuine bodily injury, b) begin teaching students to have an attitude devoid of critical thinking, c) get ripped off by a well spoken but unethical instructor who takes advantage of your starry eyed naivete.

Some things simply aren't possible. If someone tells you they can do a thing, the belief in their claim should be predicated not on their alleged rank but by their demonstration in front of witnesses of the professed ability. Otherwise, my name is Puff and I'm a dragon... Do you believe me?

I agree with most of what you have said, even with my limited knowledge of pressure points. You sound very passionate about what you are saying. Do you think maybe you are being a bit too agressive about trying to get your point across?????

 

[Disco]

:idunno: Nobody has any input to my prior question (Do pressure points work on everybody?). Perhaps if I rephrase it...... Do all pressure points work on everybody? This is not a trick question, but the answer could be construed as such. The answer just may open some eyes, as to the validity or non-validity of the forever ongoing PP debate.

 

[Rob Broad]

Matt Stone answered the question in a post shortly after you asked.

"Somebody asked upthread if pressure points work on everyone. No. Some people are naturally resilient, even to pressure points. There is a student in our club that you can literally strike repeatedly in the same points, cross body, multiple point combinations, etc., and they have absolutely no serious effect. He is far more receptive of generic strikes to vital areas than he is to point strikes... That isn't the point, though, as people like that are the exception, not the rule."

 

[ppko]

Because I am against anything unrealistic, especially when it is marketed as some over the top, end all answer to self-defense. I am all for pressure point striking, but the basic theory that you have to hit 2 or more points to effect your opponent is garbage (more points certainly enhance the effect, but only one is required), and the basic premise that you'll have the opportunity to hit 2 or more points against someone trying to take your head off is inaccurate at best.

Please, for the sake of educating me, please describe your reactions to the following scenarios:

a) Opponent eyes you from across the room. He steps toward you, chest puffed out and anger in his eyes, asks "What do you think you're looking at, punk?" What do you do?

b) Same opponent. He continues across the room and makes a grab for your shirt. What do you do?

c) Same opponent. He follows the grab with a high, hard right cross aimed squarely at your face. You have already been grabbed, so he is VERY close and you have little, if any, time to react. What do you do?

You claim you have used pressure points in "real" conflicts. Fine. I can neither prove nor disprove that claim, though the burden of proof rests with you not me... Even if your claims were 100% legitimate, you wouldn't be able to validate them without video, so we'll call it a moot point. But let's talk theory for a moment using the above scenarios...



Well, I don't recall attempting to pull you into an argument... If you look at my post, you'll see it is/was a response to Rob Broad (as evidenced by my quoting of his post as well as the questions directed toward him at the end of it). I don't recall addressing you at all, so if you are so sensitive to commentary or your training won't withstand a little scrutiny, then butt out... Every pressure point thread isn't all about you and your kiaijutsu...



I'm sure you will, for whatever reason. [sarcasm]It's always nice to see people approach their training with a critical eye...[/sarcasm]



Again, I wasn't addressing you. If you felt compelled by my post to reply, that's on you. I didn't make you do anything - you responded all on your own. Bear in mind, though, that as long as you espouse the ability to KO me (or anyone) with a touch, with no touch, or with a shout, you'll be called out every single time you speak about it... By me, by others, by anyone who refuses to live in a fantasy world where magical dragons fly through the air and long bearded, white haired martial arts masters destroy their opponents with a thought... You say you can fly through the air, prove me wrong by flying past me. Otherwise, until proof is provided, you can't fly (and it is silly to believe otherwise).

So get over yourself. If my understanding of DKI theory is incorrect (2+ points to "activate" them in order to effect the opponent), correct me. Or at least defend the theory that such multiple strikes are possible, and how you know that to be true. Or just continue to gripe about how persecuted you are for believing in fairy tales...

Either way, you'll continue to do what you do, and I'll continue to do what I do. Isn't that right? :ultracool

Here is the thing you have to be able to notice the preassault ques (I think I spelled that right I am not sure) but there are certain things that people do that should alert you to them attacking you. i have no problem on proving theories and niether does anyone else in DKI, you are a very knowledgable individual, and very passionate, I can respect that but I do not respect the way you are always downing DKI. Some people only need to be struck once some need three, and some may not go down with pressure points alone but that is why we train with other things. There is nothing that we are not willing to show each other in DKI and we test everything we do, like I have said time and time again what is on videos are seminars and we have to be able to show people how to do stuff or they will never get it. If we want everyone to go out I am sure we could do it, but then you chance the risk of injury (especially if we do not know the individual and there health conditions) I am a lot like you in the regards of the proove it to me attitude, almost everything that they have done I have had done to me, and this is why I believe in DKI. I found a new love for the Martial Arts when I found DKI, I am sure that I wouldn't be in the Martial Arts right now if it wasn't for DKI.

 

[Matt Stone]

Is it possible that you have just come across some 'not so good' DKI people.

Certainly. The thing that bothers me, however, is that 100% of the admittedly small number of black belt level people I have encountered have unsatisfactorily defended their training or simply refused to attempt to do so. That doesn't necessarily impugn their training, but it definitely causes one to wonder why they won't step up to educate their detractors...

Are you saying that all DKI training is rubbish or just parts of it.

I'm saying that whenever a person trains in a martial art and does not at least occasionally ratchet up the danger knob to a point where someone runs a very real, legitimate risk of getting injured (not permanently, but a good KO, or hit so hard they are nearly unable to get back up, etc.), then their training is little other than fancy dancing. We may all have separate "journeys" we are pursuing, but it would be safe to say that we all have self-defense on our minds to one degree or another. To prepare for an encounter in a method completely unrepresentative of that encounter is silly. It is akin to saying that you know how to wrestle a tiger because when you were a child you wrestled with your stuffed toy tiger. Completely unrelated events, and attempting one based on participating in the other is going to get someone hurt.

I just don’t think it is necessary to come down so hard on DKI people because you don’t follow the some training?

I'm not "coming down" on them, hard or otherwise. I'm asking them to consider what they are doing, and more especially to consider what they are teaching. Unfortunately, there is no monitoring of ethics within the MA community, and some folks will sell anything just to make a buck. Selling the deadly no-touch KO skill to someone, as an example, is unethical to say the least! You know, you just know someone is going to think they are empowered with that skill and will rush out to try and use it... Then when that person gets injured, who do we blame? First, the individual who thought they could do something as stupid as KOing someone without ever making contact. Then the instructor that convinced that simpleton that such a thing could be done in the first place! We could go a long way toward increasing our own legitimacy by preventing the imbecile's near self-inflicted injury in the first place if we could educate people to better understand what is and is not real in MA...

You sound very passionate about what you are saying. Do you think maybe you are being a bit too agressive about trying to get your point across?????

Maybe I am aggressive. If people have too much difficulty dealing with my "aggressive" nature online, how do they think they'll fare when confronted with an attacker? I've been in the military a long time, and I've had that question thrown at me before... "Aren't you too hard on the young private?" Certainly not. If you can't hack a strong argument, you'll probably curl up and die when someone tries to pound your head in with their fists...

Yes, I am passionate. Because when frauds perpetuate themselves and no one stands up to halt the flood of questionable training, it diminishes us all. It makes the effort that legitimate MAists in legitimate training regimens put forth appear to be no different than the wannabe ninjas running amok through housing subdivisions and the wannabe uber-masters who are several hundred pounds overweight and incapable of executing most of the techniques they profess to teach.

How does that quote go? Something like "all that is required for evil to grow is for good men to do nothing." Same deal here...

I gotta admit, though, I'm getting to the point of thinking that people get exactly what they deserve sometimes...

 

[Raewyn]

:idunno: Nobody has any input to my prior question (Do pressure points work on everybody?). Perhaps if I rephrase it...... Do all pressure points work on everybody? This is not a trick question, but the answer could be construed as such. The answer just may open some eyes, as to the validity or non-validity of the forever ongoing PP debate.

I dont know enough about pressure points to know what the big deal is about them.(ie why there is so much debate about them). I would have thought they would have worked on everybody! It would be just a matter of getting them in the right place. Maybe you might come across some freak of nature that you try and do a GB31 on and it may not work. I dont know!!! We learn these at training. We learn a few more each belt grade. We get shown where they are and how they can me used from a realistic approach.

 

[ppko]

I dont know enough about pressure points to know what the big deal is about them.(ie why there is so much debate about them). I would have thought they would have worked on everybody! It would be just a matter of getting them in the right place. Maybe you might come across some freak of nature that you try and do a GB31 on and it may not work. I dont know!!! We learn these at training. We learn a few more each belt grade. We get shown where they are and how they can me used from a realistic approach.

Who do you train with, I think that it is great to see others training, and using Pressure points. Who is your instrucors teacher just wandering. How long have you been training

 

[Raewyn]

Who do you train with, I think that it is great to see others training, and using Pressure points. Who is your instrucors teacher just wandering. How long have you been training

Hi PPKO
I train with Steve Wallace - Incorporated Martial Arts in New Zealand. I have been doing this for 1 1/2 years. At the moment we are learning our GB31 and four other pressure points, which we are about to cover (dont know what they are yet).

 

[Scout_379]

I recently made a friend of mine join our club. NOTHING works on him. He is immune to ALL pressure points and joint locks. Or at least they don't hurt him, I dont know about the other "symtoms". He needs to tap out early during locks because he cannot tell when his bones may break or dislocate.

 

[Sarah]

:idunno: Nobody has any input to my prior question (Do pressure points work on everybody?). Perhaps if I rephrase it...... Do all pressure points work on everybody? This is not a trick question, but the answer could be construed as such. The answer just may open some eyes, as to the validity or non-validity of the forever ongoing PP debate.

Matt did respond to this,

I have found in my limited training that there are people at either end of the scale, some are not affected and some are very sensitive.

 

[Sarah]

I think another point to consider is that people in 'altered states' i.e. drugs/alcohol etc may respond differently when tech's are applied as their body may not register what you are doing.

 

[ppko]

I think another point to consider is that people in 'altered states' i.e. drugs/alcohol etc may respond differently when tech's are applied as their body may not register what you are doing.

You are right, depending on the drugs and the points used it could be a worse effect or they may feel nothing at all

 

[Sarah]

The thing with Martial Arts training is that for some of us it is more than just for self defence and or tournaments.

Also anyone with half a brain would know that in a real life situation you are not going to stand there and try to hit 2 PP and expect a KO, Pressure Points are just another aspect of the training that we do in an effort in enhance our Tech’s.

 

[Matt Stone]

The thing with Martial Arts training is that for some of us it is more than just for self defence and or tournaments.

Agreed. But even though some people have other end goals in mind, all the benefits of martial arts stem from arduous physical hardship and demanding training.

Where does the confidence come from? Because you can stand on one foot longer than anyone else in class? Or because you can train with the biggest, nastiest smelling guy in the class and make him squeal like a 5 year old girl with a spider on her shoulder?

Where does the physical balance come from? Because you can do a 360 degree kick (the same balance you could develop from dancing or gymnastics, so it isn't as particular to MA), or because no matter what your opponent tries he can't unbalance you and throw you down.

I think you get where I'm coming from...

Also anyone with half a brain would know that in a real life situation you are not going to stand there and try to hit 2 PP and expect a KO,

Aha!!! My point exactly... And so if a teacher is indoctrinating his students to believe that their 2, 3 and 4 pressure point series of strikes is what will win the fight, he is what, precisely? I'll tell you... He's setting them up for failure because he is predicating their success on an unrealistic and impractical method of self-defense.

Pressure Points are just another aspect of the training that we do in an effort in enhance our Tech’s.

We are in complete agreement...

 

[Sarah]

Ah ha....I has taken me a while but I think I am finally understand what you have been getting at, Matt I think we are now on the same page.

I my ignorance I did not realise that there are intructors out there teaching there students that all you need to do it hit a couple of PP and the fight is over, with out giving the student other fighting tools as well.

I love PP and training with them, but as said they are just 'one' aspect of our training.

Thanks for the input at has been interesting hearing your point of view!