Question about Pressure points

[Dirty Dog]

are there parts of the body that are more tender or sensitive than others for various reasons? sure. are you going to aggressively poke or jab a finger or two into them and cause enough damage or pain to reliably get away from an attacker or end a fight? hell no.
anyone claiming to teach self defense that teaches pressure points has never been in a real fight before.

I have used pressure points successfully hundreds (thousands?) of times. They're not magic, but they absolutely can be used effectively.
One example. Combative patients often try to bite and/or spit. It's very easy to control their head by applying pressure behind the angle of the jaw. You can turn their head to the side and hold it down, which removes most of the typical targets. Pain compliance is a real thing.

There's nothing magic about pressure points, but they're certainly useful in the right situation. And that's all that can be said about any technique you can think of.

 

[GojuTommy]

I have used pressure points successfully hundreds (thousands?) of times. They're not magic, but they absolutely can be used effectively.
One example. Combative patients often try to bite and/or spit. It's very easy to control their head by applying pressure behind the angle of the jaw. You can turn their head to the side and hold it down, which removes most of the typical targets. Pain compliance is a real thing.

There's nothing magic about pressure points, but they're certainly useful in the right situation. And that's all that can be said about any technique you can think of.

is it pain compliance or is it mechanical advantage that allows you to turn the head and hold them down? is it a pressure point, or is it that your arms and body are simply stronger than a patient's neck. i've redirected patients' heads when trying to bite or spit as well, a palm pressuring the jaw works just fine because a neck isn't as strong as my arms let alone the rest of my body.

pressure points dont work.

 

[Dirty Dog]

is it pain compliance or is it mechanical advantage that allows you to turn the head and hold them down? is it a pressure point, or is it that your arms and body are simply stronger than a patient's neck. i've redirected patients' heads when trying to bite or spit as well, a palm pressuring the jaw works just fine because a neck isn't as strong as my arms let alone the rest of my body.

pressure points dont work.

Both, of course. The palm along the jaw provides a mechanical advantage, while the thumb digging into the pressure points hurts like hell. I've held down heads many times using only one finger in the pressure point. It still works.

 

[GojuTommy]

Both, of course. The palm along the jaw provides a mechanical advantage, while the thumb digging into the pressure points hurts like hell. I've held down heads many times using only one finger in the pressure point. It still works.

Then it sounds like you were choosing to inflict unnecessary pain against people who were simply uncooperative rather than actually combative.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Chinese medicine has been studying areas of the body sensitive to pressure for at least 1000 years and in relation to MA for 700 years. This longevity suggests at least some truth to the subject. It is my understanding that original Tai Chi Chu'an and Jiu Jitsu incorporated this knowledge. IMO, some of this stuff is mythical, but some is definitely legit. There are several classes of pressure points/vital areas:

1. Those associated with qi flow and energy meridians.
2. Those associated with blood flow and its interruption to the brain such as femoral/carotid arteries.
3. Those associated with nerve bundles and their interruption of muscular and organic functions.
4. Those associated with inflicting debilitating pain.
5. Those associated with vital organs subject to traumatic injury such as lymph nodes, eyes and liver.

There is some overlap among these classes (which are subjective, convenient definitions). Some areas are best attacked with small surface area strikes like fingers or single knuckle, others by larger area weapons such a palm or entire fist. Some require pressure. Some can be attacked directly, others may need some sort of immobilization or setup to get to.

It may be said that unrealistic precision during combat is required to properly exploit some of these areas. However, modern fighting tactics are seldom designed to do so. It's quite possible that historical MA was better designed to effectively implement such attacks.

As I said, there are some questionable ideas in some of the old ways (such as striking particular targets at specific times of the day - sichen theory). But I think there is plenty of evidence in combat (sport and actual) as well as medicine for the existence of various types of pressure points.

 

[Gyakuto]

What is meant by ‘pressure points’? Are they supposed to be areas where a small amount of stimulus produces and disproportionately large effect? Is that what you mean?

 

[Dirty Dog]

What is meant by ‘pressure points’? Are they supposed to be areas where a small amount of stimulus produces and disproportionately large effect? Is that what you mean?

Pretty much, yes. Anatomically, mostly places where nerve bundles are close to the surface, with bone behind them.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

What is meant by ‘pressure points’? Are they supposed to be areas where a small amount of stimulus produces and disproportionately large effect? Is that what you mean?

Inside of your upper leg has a pressure point. If you use knee to strike that point, you can force your opponent to move his leg (if you want to get your opponent's leading leg).

Inside of your upper arm just 1 inch above your elbow joint has a pressure point. If you press your thumb into it, you can force your opponent to bend his arm (if you want to apply elbow lock) - H2.

 

[GojuTommy]

Chinese medicine has been studying areas of the body sensitive to pressure for at least 1000 years and in relation to MA for 700 years. This longevity suggests at least some truth to the subject. It is my understanding that original Tai Chi Chu'an and Jiu Jitsu incorporated this knowledge. IMO, some of this stuff is mythical, but some is definitely legit. There are several classes of pressure points/vital areas:

1. Those associated with qi flow and energy meridians.
2. Those associated with blood flow and its interruption to the brain such as femoral/carotid arteries.
3. Those associated with nerve bundles and their interruption of muscular and organic functions.
4. Those associated with inflicting debilitating pain.
5. Those associated with vital organs subject to traumatic injury such as lymph nodes, eyes and liver.

There is some overlap among these classes (which are subjective, convenient definitions). Some areas are best attacked with small surface area strikes like fingers or single knuckle, others by larger area weapons such a palm or entire fist. Some require pressure. Some can be attacked directly, others may need some sort of immobilization or setup to get to.

It may be said that unrealistic precision during combat is required to properly exploit some of these areas. However, modern fighting tactics are seldom designed to do so. It's quite possible that historical MA was better designed to effectively implement such attacks.

As I said, there are some questionable ideas in some of the old ways (such as striking particular targets at specific times of the day - sichen theory). But I think there is plenty of evidence in combat (sport and actual) as well as medicine for the existence of various types of pressure points.

Just because something has been believed for a long time doesn’t mean there’s any truth to it.
In China and much of asia people still believe rhino horns are aphrodisiacs. We know this false.

 

[GojuTommy]

Inside of your upper leg has a pressure point. If you use knee to strike that point, you can force your opponent to move his leg (if you want to get your opponent's leading leg).

Inside of your upper arm just 1 inch above your elbow joint has a pressure point. If you press your thumb into it, you can force your opponent to bend his arm (if you want to apply elbow lock) - H2.


View attachment 29886

If you knee the inside of the thigh with any amount of force, you’ll probably make the other person pick up or move their leg…just like you can sweep or reap a foot. Don’t think it has anything to do with pressure points…

 

[J. Pickard]

Have a word with Mark Kline and see what he has on offer - you might find something of interest:

The Kyusho Institute – Pressure Point Education for martial arts. Kyusho…Redefined

www.learnpressurepoints.com

This is all complete nonsense that will not stand up to scrutiny. If someone is truly knocked out they will absolutely not make a grunting noise as they fall and they definitely will not catch themselves to fall in a way that prevents injury. This is complete and total nonsense that has been debunked time and time again. How people still believe this garbage is beyond me.

 

[Dirty Dog]

This is all complete nonsense that will not stand up to scrutiny. If someone is truly knocked out they will absolutely not make a grunting noise as they fall and they definitely will not catch themselves to fall in a way that prevents injury.

You do know that people do not necessarily become unconscious instantly, right? I've seen more than a few people knocked out or pass out, and I've BEEN the person a few times. The times I have been knocked out have never been immediate. I would say that it's fairly uncommon for people to be completely out immediately.
As for noises, people commonly have muscle spasms when they pass out or are knocked out. They twitch. The diaphragm is a muscle. If/when it twitches, noises are certainly possible. Again, I've seen more than a few people pass out or be knocked out and they often do, in fact, make noise.
I am not commenting on the particular video you're responding to. I am commenting only on the misconceptions you expressed in your post.

 

[drop bear]

This is all complete nonsense that will not stand up to scrutiny. If someone is truly knocked out they will absolutely not make a grunting noise as they fall and they definitely will not catch themselves to fall in a way that prevents injury. This is complete and total nonsense that has been debunked time and time again. How people still believe this garbage is beyond me.

Yeah. Look. I am going to say there is a different reaction. But I am probably biased.

 

[J. Pickard]

You do know that people do not necessarily become unconscious instantly, right? I've seen more than a few people knocked out or pass out, and I've BEEN the person a few times. The times I have been knocked out have never been immediate. I would say that it's fairly uncommon for people to be completely out immediately.
As for noises, people commonly have muscle spasms when they pass out or are knocked out. They twitch. The diaphragm is a muscle. If/when it twitches, noises are certainly possible. Again, I've seen more than a few people pass out or be knocked out and they often do, in fact, make noise.
I am not commenting on the particular video you're responding to. I am commenting only on the misconceptions you expressed in your post.

Choked out, sure that takes time. To be knocked unconcious from force from a blow to the neck or head is pretty instantanious due to the nature of the injury.

You are correct that noises happen when KO'd but they sound nothing like someone vocalizing pain from being hit like the guy in the video Im talking about.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Choked out, sure that takes time. To be knocked unconcious from force from a blow to the neck or head is pretty instantanious due to the nature of the injury.

Sometimes, yes. Not always.

 

[Oily Dragon]

This is all complete nonsense that will not stand up to scrutiny. If someone is truly knocked out they will absolutely not make a grunting noise as they fall and they definitely will not catch themselves to fall in a way that prevents injury. This is complete and total nonsense that has been debunked time and time again. How people still believe this garbage is beyond me.

Kyushojitsu is George Dillman land, for sure.

But choking people out properly takes only a few seconds. You can attack the nervous system, not breathing. Super easy to demonstrate, too. Vasovagal syncope.

Micky Ward knew the real dim mak though... Truth be told, it pays to know where and how to hit someone. Alonso didn't go totally lights out but the end result was the same.

The liver doesn't like to get hammered just so.

 

[drop bear]

Kyushojitsu is George Dillman land, for sure.

But choking people out properly takes only a few seconds. You can attack the nervous system, not breathing. Super easy to demonstrate, too. Vasovagal syncope.

Micky Ward knew the real dim mak though... Truth be told, it pays to know where and how to hit someone. Alonso didn't go totally lights out but the end result was the same.

The liver doesn't like to get hammered just so.

My coach lost a fight to a liver shot. And he described that there was nothing he could do. Different to being winded or in pain. The whole body shuts down.

And then a minute or so later back up and basically fine.

 

[Taiji Rebel]

 

[Buka]

Out here, one shot drops are often described as, "Whap, splat, li'dat."

I get a kick out of that, never heard it in Boston.

 

[Stickman]

I think a lot of posters are probably saying the same thing, but from different view points, and based on their own experiences.

Things like going unconscious and making noise, versus not making noise. If you are knowledgeable about air chokes versus blood chokes, with an air choke taking much longer to incapacitate a person than a proper blood choke. In an airway choke, you are restricting the air supply (obviously), and it takes awhile to go completely out. Gasping, grunting, or making noises is common. However, a proper blood choke puts a person out quickly, and odds are you are not going to hear them make noises.

Now lets take that same concept of being unconscious, and look at it from the POV of a fighter who kicks or strikes a person in the head, resulting in an unconscious opponent. You don't hear noises, gasps, or grunts in those cases as the brain is too busy slamming against the wall of the skull. If you have ever seen a fight in the street, dojo, or UFC where someone goes stiff when hit and they are still locked up on the ground, that is a knock out.

When we bring the above into the realm of "pressure points" or nerve strikes, we have to consider the same things, mainly there are various ways to impact a nerve cluster, and there are a lot of ways for a opponent to be facing or countering.

One poster talks about compliance rapidly gained in hospital settings via pressure point and head control. That is fantastic, because that pain comes on ultra quick, but vanishes very quickly as well. I can tell you from personal experience that when you palm strike a "patient" in ER (and send him flipping over the table) that the attending doctors tend to get exceedingly worked up. The doctors live in nice places, in bubbles, and ignore why the suspect/ patient is in the ER to begin with.

For anyone who says nerve stuff and pressure points don't work against them is incorrect, but only because they are looking at things from certain perspectives. Let us consider the entirety of the nervous system. I think most of us will agree the testicles are rather sensitive. Sure there are guys who say they can take a hit to the junk, but it doesn't typically work out that way. The eyes tend to be rather sensitive as well. Not every pressure point is located in the inside of the upper arm, or the liver. Not every nerve cluster is a magic hidden spot.

What we do need to remember is that when we are in a legitimate real world fight, pressure points are not TYPICALLY the best of targets. I say this based on my own training and experience. When things get really bad, breaking down the skeletal structure is a quick way to terminate events. Arms and legs being broken ends fights quickly. Breaking shoulders does as well. We train in our various disciplines, but we need to consider a larger picture. If we have no ground fighting ability, we will probably lose to a BJJ or wrestling opponent. We all like to believe, or want to believe that it can't happen, but it can, and it does. If you only do standup, you need to get a ground game going.

Pressure points and nerve clusters are legit, but they are not magic. Much like a punch that is blocked or misses, not everything work all the time.

Hopefully the above makes a little bit of sense. I tried to condense it, but am happy to expand on any of it.

Regard to all....

Stick