Pressure Points

[Sarah]

My instructor has told us if we are practising pressure points to only try them on one side of the body, if you start crossing back and forth you could have a bit of trouble on your hands.....Rob could you please elaborate on this a bit??

 

[Rob Broad]

My instructor has told us if we are practising pressure points to only try them on one side of the body, if you start crossing back and forth you could have a bit of trouble on your hands.....Rob could you please elaborate on this a bit??

Sarah it is the using of several pints in conjuction that causes serious damage and knockouts. You also have to be wary of shutting down parts of the body, use the points listed in the Library as reference material only, don't try to learn the system form them.

On a side note your font is really small and hard to see

 

[Sarah]

Sarah it is the using of several pints in conjuction that causes serious damage and knockouts. You also have to be wary of shutting down parts of the body, use the points listed in the Library as reference material only, don't try to learn the system form them.

On a side note your font is really small and hard to see

Thanks for that Rob...hows this for size??

 

[Rob Broad]

Thanks for that Rob...hows this for size??

Thanks, I thought my old age was affecting my eye sight

 

[Matt Stone]

...it is the using of several pints in conjuction that causes serious damage and knockouts. You also have to be wary of shutting down parts of the body, use the points listed in the Library as reference material only, don't try to learn the system form them.

This is one of the DKI fallacies... You don't need to "activate" several points to cause a KO or to cause "serious damage." This shows two things - 1) the depth (or lack thereof) of a genuine understanding of vital point striking and 2) the impracticality of DKI-based application.

As has been debated repeatedly on this forum and many others, when DKI fans start executing their oh so "deadly" multiple point strikes on attackers moving at full speed, then they will have some basis in fact upon which to predicate their theories. Since the only thing they have "proven" thus far is that their methods don't work on people other than their own students (www.bullshido.com has a wonderful video clip that was on a television news program demonstrating a big, bad DKI instructor's inability to knock out the petite reporter because she was "too tense," and students from another school who were invited in were 100% resistant to their KO attempts while their own students fell like leaves... :idunno: ), it makes me wonder why anyone who has spent any time training against resistant, aggressive opponents would ever fall prey to their mystical mumbo-jumbo approach...
Additionally, DKI exponents profess an ability to KO you without touching you, or by yelling at you ("kiaijutsu"). This does little to further their reputation, especially when these additional methods fail to work on non-DKI students just like their "hands on" methods fail... Of course, as a money-making scam it is a wonderful tool with which to bilk cash from the unsuspecting, ignorant, starry-eyed masses looking for the magical Holy Grail of martial arts training that will enable them to defeat their opponent without breaking a sweat.

Whatever. Sometimes no matter how bad the TV show, some folks will still watch no matter what... :idunno:

Hey, Rob... When did you start practicing pressure point stuff? I wasn't aware you had attended any seminars... If you have, what happened? I thought kenpo was your bag? Are you adding this to your base? Just curious...

 

[ppko]

This is one of the DKI fallacies... You don't need to "activate" several points to cause a KO or to cause "serious damage." This shows two things - 1) the depth (or lack thereof) of a genuine understanding of vital point striking and 2) the impracticality of DKI-based application.

As has been debated repeatedly on this forum and many others, when DKI fans start executing their oh so "deadly" multiple point strikes on attackers moving at full speed, then they will have some basis in fact upon which to predicate their theories. Since the only thing they have "proven" thus far is that their methods don't work on people other than their own students (www.bullshido.com has a wonderful video clip that was on a television news program demonstrating a big, bad DKI instructor's inability to knock out the petite reporter because she was "too tense," and students from another school who were invited in were 100% resistant to their KO attempts while their own students fell like leaves... :idunno: ), it makes me wonder why anyone who has spent any time training against resistant, aggressive opponents would ever fall prey to their mystical mumbo-jumbo approach...
Additionally, DKI exponents profess an ability to KO you without touching you, or by yelling at you ("kiaijutsu"). This does little to further their reputation, especially when these additional methods fail to work on non-DKI students just like their "hands on" methods fail... Of course, as a money-making scam it is a wonderful tool with which to bilk cash from the unsuspecting, ignorant, starry-eyed masses looking for the magical Holy Grail of martial arts training that will enable them to defeat their opponent without breaking a sweat.

Whatever. Sometimes no matter how bad the TV show, some folks will still watch no matter what... :idunno:

Hey, Rob... When did you start practicing pressure point stuff? I wasn't aware you had attended any seminars... If you have, what happened? I thought kenpo was your bag? Are you adding this to your base? Just curious...

I don't know why you are so anti DKI, but I am not going to get pulled into another argument with you over this. As I have said before I will keep doing what I do you keep doing what you do. I am tired of getting into the same argument with you and your little friend.

 

[Matt Stone]

I don't know why you are so anti DKI,

Because I am against anything unrealistic, especially when it is marketed as some over the top, end all answer to self-defense. I am all for pressure point striking, but the basic theory that you have to hit 2 or more points to effect your opponent is garbage (more points certainly enhance the effect, but only one is required), and the basic premise that you'll have the opportunity to hit 2 or more points against someone trying to take your head off is inaccurate at best.

Please, for the sake of educating me, please describe your reactions to the following scenarios:

a) Opponent eyes you from across the room. He steps toward you, chest puffed out and anger in his eyes, asks "What do you think you're looking at, punk?" What do you do?

b) Same opponent. He continues across the room and makes a grab for your shirt. What do you do?

c) Same opponent. He follows the grab with a high, hard right cross aimed squarely at your face. You have already been grabbed, so he is VERY close and you have little, if any, time to react. What do you do?

You claim you have used pressure points in "real" conflicts. Fine. I can neither prove nor disprove that claim, though the burden of proof rests with you not me... Even if your claims were 100% legitimate, you wouldn't be able to validate them without video, so we'll call it a moot point. But let's talk theory for a moment using the above scenarios...

but I am not going to get pulled into another argument with you over this.

Well, I don't recall attempting to pull you into an argument... If you look at my post, you'll see it is/was a response to Rob Broad (as evidenced by my quoting of his post as well as the questions directed toward him at the end of it). I don't recall addressing you at all, so if you are so sensitive to commentary or your training won't withstand a little scrutiny, then butt out... Every pressure point thread isn't all about you and your kiaijutsu...

As I have said before I will keep doing what I do you keep doing what you do.

I'm sure you will, for whatever reason. [sarcasm]It's always nice to see people approach their training with a critical eye...[/sarcasm]

I am tired of getting into the same argument with you and your little friend.

Again, I wasn't addressing you. If you felt compelled by my post to reply, that's on you. I didn't make you do anything - you responded all on your own. Bear in mind, though, that as long as you espouse the ability to KO me (or anyone) with a touch, with no touch, or with a shout, you'll be called out every single time you speak about it... By me, by others, by anyone who refuses to live in a fantasy world where magical dragons fly through the air and long bearded, white haired martial arts masters destroy their opponents with a thought... You say you can fly through the air, prove me wrong by flying past me. Otherwise, until proof is provided, you can't fly (and it is silly to believe otherwise).

So get over yourself. If my understanding of DKI theory is incorrect (2+ points to "activate" them in order to effect the opponent), correct me. Or at least defend the theory that such multiple strikes are possible, and how you know that to be true. Or just continue to gripe about how persecuted you are for believing in fairy tales...

Either way, you'll continue to do what you do, and I'll continue to do what I do. Isn't that right? :ultracool

 

[Sarah]

Why close you mind to possibilities!! Just because you don’t believe it works does not mean it does not work, all it means is you dont know how to make it work.

If a 10th dan Master told me he could fly, rather than closing my mind and saying that is rubbish, I would simply tell myself ..... Wouldn’t that be amazing, and I hope one day I can experience that!!!


"Some see things as they are and say 'why?' I dream things that never were and say 'why not?'"

"Only fools are 'know it alls' "

 

[Matt Stone]

Why close you mind to possibilities!! Just because you don’t believe it works does not mean it does not work, all it means is you dont know how to make it work.[/size]

It certainly isn't a question of having a closed mind, nor is it a question of my inability to make it work. The vital point striking I have studied does not require multiple points to be struck in succession to incapacitate the opponent, rather only one point is required (though more can be used).

If anything, it is the closed-mindedness of DKI fans who believe that practicing their striking points against a static, non-moving opponent will equate to an ability to do so against a moving, aggressive opponent. One DKI instructor, formerly a MT member, asserted that because Dillman could do a thing then so could she (though she didn't train to do so)... That is akin to saying that because my college professor is a PhD, then so am I. The logic is flawed and the assumption is erroneous.

If a 10th dan Master told me he could fly, rather than closing my mind and saying that is rubbish, I would simply tell myself ..... Wouldn’t that be amazing, and I hope one day I can experience that!!!

Then I wish you well and hope you never a) are attacked for real by someone who intends to do you genuine bodily injury, b) begin teaching students to have an attitude devoid of critical thinking, c) get ripped off by a well spoken but unethical instructor who takes advantage of your starry eyed naivete.

Some things simply aren't possible. If someone tells you they can do a thing, the belief in their claim should be predicated not on their alleged rank but by their demonstration in front of witnesses of the professed ability. Otherwise, my name is Puff and I'm a dragon... Do you believe me?

 

[Disco]

Open question............ Does pressure points work on everybody?

 

[Bob Hubbard]

There are at this moment hundreds of different styles, arts and systems. There are thousands of different schools and lineages. There are major differences between eastern and western ideas on how the body works. A short time ago the idea of sticking a needle into your arm to relieve a problem seemed barbaric to a group who advocated slipping a couple of leeches down the ol' codpiece. Now of course, after years of bad fortune, the idea of leeches and medical use is making a comeback.

Certainly when it comes to the idea of pressure points and their use there is room for a few differing ideas and concepts.

The idea that the DKI approach is wrong has been discussed in depth here. Rather than arguing about it, perhaps the differing viewpoint should be demonstrated with solid fact? If the information presented by Rob is in error, incomplete or otherwise flawed, I would prefer to have the complete information available. In the absence of such information, or the use of the infamous "Calgon" defense, it is hard to properly analyize.

I've heard from those who disagree with George Dillman, and I've heard from those who have felt the techniques first hand. I've seen the reports that have been mentioned above. My only response is, if DKI/Dillman is wrong, to provide the 'correct' information as you see it, and not to hide behind the 'I cant tell you' or 'its a sekret' defense.

 

[Sarah]

my name is Puff and I'm a dragon... Do you believe me?

It shouldn't matter whether I believe you, the point is, is that what you believe.

At the end of the day everyone has different opinions of what works and what doesn’t, we are all on our own journeys.
Why waste your time arguing with people that think differently to you...you are preaching to the wrong crowd.

I’m all for analysing things and listening to new ideas......but telling someone they are wrong and you are right, just because you say so is probably not the best way to get your point across.

 

[Matt Stone]

There are at this moment hundreds of different styles, arts and systems. There are thousands of different schools and lineages. There are major differences between eastern and western ideas on how the body works. A short time ago the idea of sticking a needle into your arm to relieve a problem seemed barbaric to a group who advocated slipping a couple of leeches down the ol' codpiece. Now of course, after years of bad fortune, the idea of leeches and medical use is making a comeback.

Which is one of the reasons one of my favorite sayings is "one man's magic, another man's technology."

Certainly when it comes to the idea of pressure points and their use there is room for a few differing ideas and concepts.

It isn't the idea of pressure/vital points, nor the idea that they can cause varied effects, that I rail against. It is the assumption by so many people, in the face of evidence to the contrary, that the DKI approach is viable. As with any viable, living approach to training for personal combat, if you do not train against an opponent that is actively trying to separate your head from your neck, at least at some point in your training, then you aren't training against a realistic threat. Your opponent must be intending you harm to one degree or another - if they aren't, you are only playing "tag," and your "skills" will fade away the moment you are confronted with a genuine danger.

The idea that the DKI approach is wrong has been discussed in depth here. Rather than arguing about it, perhaps the differing viewpoint should be demonstrated with solid fact? If the information presented by Rob is in error, incomplete or otherwise flawed, I would prefer to have the complete information available. In the absence of such information, or the use of the infamous "Calgon" defense, it is hard to properly analyize.

Not sure what a "Calgon" defense is...

Try this -

So many people like to toss about the term "GB 20." The information I have is as follows:

Fengchi
Location: In the depression between the upper portion of medial sternocleidomastoideus and medial trapezius, on the same level with Fengfu.

Indications: Headache, vertigo, insomnia, pain and stiffness of the neck, blurred vision, glaucoma, red and painful eyes, tinnitus, convulsion, epilepsy, infantile convulsion, febrile diseases, common cold, nasal obstruction, rhinorrhea.

Method: Puncture 0.5 - 0.8 inch towards the tip of the nose. Moxibustion is applicable.

Regional Anatomy -
Vasculature: The brances of the occipital artery and vein.

Innervation: The branch of the lesser occipital nerve.

To strike - This is termed by our system as a MUSCLE/NERVE point as it affects both the musculature as well as the nerves that supply this part of the body. As this point can cause death if struck, I won't post the details on proper striking angle publicly. To do so would be irresponsible. If it were just for a painful point, then I would, but due to the potential for self-injury I refuse to do so. PM or email me for the details.

In general application, this point alone, without "activation," can cause unconsciousness with a relatively light strike. I prefer hammerfists or knife hand strikes as they fit the anatomical landmarks well.

Does DKI go into that degree of information? And is this point really affecting the acupuncture point itself, or the underlying anatomy?

Please, feel free to supply me with any other point commonly used, or perhaps a combination of points. I will cross reference your suggestions against my information and respond back.

How's that?

I've heard from those who disagree with George Dillman, and I've heard from those who have felt the techniques first hand. I've seen the reports that have been mentioned above. My only response is, if DKI/Dillman is wrong, to provide the 'correct' information as you see it, and not to hide behind the 'I cant tell you' or 'its a sekret' defense.

I hold nothing "secret." I will provide information, but I won't pass on information to strangers over the internet that I don't even supply my own students until they have been training for a while...

 

[Sarah]

Matt, From what I understand 'correct if I am wrong' you do use pressure points in your training, but you do not agree with the way that Dillman teaches it??

Who have you trained with, with regard to pressure points?? also have you had the opportunity to stand in front of Dillman and question him about his approach or have him demonstrate his tech’s on you?

 

[Matt Stone]

It shouldn't matter whether I believe you, the point is, is that what you believe.

I can believe I'm invisible all day long, and it won't make me invisible... Allowing me to wander about believing I am invisible, and encouraging others to believe I am invisible and I can make them invisible too is absurd, no matter what they want to believe...

At the end of the day everyone has different opinions of what works and what doesn’t, we are all on our own journeys.

Sure. Journeys. But at what point do you ignore the potential danger of people relying on a method that in all likelihood will actually result in their own injury rather than their own defense?

Why waste your time arguing with people that think differently to you...you are preaching to the wrong crowd.

While I draw no corrolation between myself and Christ, He spent plenty of time confronting those with conflicting views in order to show them the errors of their beliefs. I'm not on a religious crusade, and I'm not saying (necessarily) that DKI points don't work. Just that having your opponent standing stock still, teaching your students to strike 2+ points on an immobile opponent, and then having them equate that ability with the ability to do the exact same thing on a mobile, full speed attack is ridiculous. If the points are being trained against a full speed attack and are working, fine. But there is, thusfar, no evidence of that being the standard. So it would seem that I am "preaching" to the right crowd... If I stand around telling the people that agree with me my thoughts, then I'm not telling them anything new. The people that are in need of eye-opening are the ones who are believing whatever they are told... In this case, that'd be quite a few of the DKI folks I've encountered...

I’m all for analysing things and listening to new ideas......but telling someone they are wrong and you are right, just because you say so is probably not the best way to get your point across.

And that is precisely what the DKI people say as well... They won't entertain for a moment that the great Saint Dillman may be incorrect, nor that their method of training may be unrealistic. They fully believe that they can execute their multi-point strikes and KOs, that they can affect you without touching you in some cases as well as being able to shout you into unconsciousness, when all the evidence points to the contrary...

It boils down to objectivity. I have taken all the things I have learned over the years, especially the things I believed unquestioningly once upon a time, and re-examined them to verify their validity. Some things I don't accept any longer. Other things I have a much more firm knowledge of than I did then. But I refuse to "believe" things work... Belief is based on acceptance, not experience. I want to "know" things work, and there is only one way to develop that knowledge...

 

[Matt Stone]

Matt, From what I understand 'correct if I am wrong' you do use pressure points in your training, but you do not agree with the way that Dillman teaches it??

Precisely. The points are the same points used in acupuncture, but they aren't necessarily affecting the acupuncture points with their strikes (no matter what they think they are doing), nor is there a requirement to strike 2+ points. Doing so surely increases the impact of the strikes to the opponent's perception, but one point does just fine... Striking across the body is also a good "force multiplier" to strikes, whether they are to vital points or not! It isn't like Ghostbusters where "crossing the streams" is dangerous... That's a load of hooey. However, for reasons I don't fully understand but am trying to determine, if you "kick left" and then "hit right," the effect is impressive.

Who have you trained with, with regard to pressure points?? also have you had the opportunity to stand in front of Dillman and question him about his approach or have him demonstrate his tech’s on you?

I've trained with my teacher, Sifu Phillip Starr, since 1985. He has attended a number of the same seminars that Dillman attended under Seiyu Oyata (the same seminars that gave rise to Dillman's claims to pressure point training), as well as the techniques inherent in our own style. I have also spent time on the mat with one of Oyata's 4th dans while I lived in Japan.

I have yet to attend a DKI event, but certainly if one happened within a 2 hour drive of my location, and the fee wasn't outrageous (though I suspect it will be), I'd attend to see for myself. So far, all I have are the numerous video clips available on the internet, and nearly all of them have the opponent/victim standing still like a mannequin waiting to be hit. In the video clip on Bullshido, a news crew went to the man's school and the very petite reporter stood stock still and the teacher STILL couldn't KO her! He said she was "too tense." Additionally, students from another school were brought in, and they were 100% unaffected, though the man's own students fell like flies... Sound iffy to you? Sounds like a self-fulfilling prophecy to me... Students want to believe the "master" can teach them the dreaded "death touch," so when he strikes them they go down/out. When others who do not believe in the "master's" ability are struck, they stand there waiting for something to happen... Why would that be?

Somebody asked upthread if pressure points work on everyone. No. Some people are naturally resilient, even to pressure points. There is a student in our club that you can literally strike repeatedly in the same points, cross body, multiple point combinations, etc., and they have absolutely no serious effect. He is far more receptive of generic strikes to vital areas than he is to point strikes... That isn't the point, though, as people like that are the exception, not the rule.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

My big question has been...and remains...since the body is pretty much covered with acu-points, especially the sensitive parts, how can you NOT train in striking them if you train in striking a person at all? You can't even kick someone in the butt-crack without tagging some points. Try to find a "footprint" about the size of a forefist on the human face that doesn't have an acupoint on it.

Round-kick the outside of the knee, and you're smacking some of the big points. Can't avoid it; they are just there, surrounding the lateral joint line and fibular head. For that matter, if you practice throwing roundhouse kicks with the top of your foot (which is inadvisable for a number of reasons, but that's a different thread), you're contacting many of the LI 1-4 points, some of which are used to "open the portals". That would mean, each time you make contact, you are "activating" you're own acupoints for the opponent to attack, making it easier for HIM to knock YOU out.

I agree with Matt, particularly after chatting with Doc in the wee hours, getting my defenses weakened by simple little violations/activations of various points: It only takes 1 well-placed to get the job done.

D.

 

[Matt Stone]

Whoever "dinged" me with yet another anonymous "negative reputation points" post, grow up. If you can't say "always with the negatives" (note the correct spelling, please) publicly to me, you ought to just remain silent... Speak up like an adult rather than taking pointless anonymous pot shots.



"How do I make myself known to you, then?" you whine? Easy. Make your comment, and include your name in the comment... It's what I do every time to make sure people know who said what to whom.

I have no problem identifying myself nor my beliefs. Why do you? :idunno:

 

[Sarah]

Precisely. The points are the same points used in acupuncture, but they aren't necessarily affecting the acupuncture points with their strikes (no matter what they think they are doing), nor is there a requirement to strike 2+ points. Doing so surely increases the impact of the strikes to the opponent's perception, but one point does just fine... Striking across the body is also a good "force multiplier" to strikes, whether they are to vital points or not! It isn't like Ghostbusters where "crossing the streams" is dangerous... That's a load of hooey. However, for reasons I don't fully understand but am trying to determine, if you "kick left" and then "hit right," the effect is impressive.



I've trained with my teacher, Sifu Phillip Starr, since 1985. He has attended a number of the same seminars that Dillman attended under Seiyu Oyata (the same seminars that gave rise to Dillman's claims to pressure point training), as well as the techniques inherent in our own style. I have also spent time on the mat with one of Oyata's 4th dans while I lived in Japan.

I have yet to attend a DKI event, but certainly if one happened within a 2 hour drive of my location, and the fee wasn't outrageous (though I suspect it will be), I'd attend to see for myself. So far, all I have are the numerous video clips available on the internet, and nearly all of them have the opponent/victim standing still like a mannequin waiting to be hit. In the video clip on Bullshido, a news crew went to the man's school and the very petite reporter stood stock still and the teacher STILL couldn't KO her! He said she was "too tense." Additionally, students from another school were brought in, and they were 100% unaffected, though the man's own students fell like flies... Sound iffy to you? Sounds like a self-fulfilling prophecy to me... Students want to believe the "master" can teach them the dreaded "death touch," so when he strikes them they go down/out. When others who do not believe in the "master's" ability are struck, they stand there waiting for something to happen... Why would that be?

Somebody asked upthread if pressure points work on everyone. No. Some people are naturally resilient, even to pressure points. There is a student in our club that you can literally strike repeatedly in the same points, cross body, multiple point combinations, etc., and they have absolutely no serious effect. He is far more receptive of generic strikes to vital areas than he is to point strikes... That isn't the point, though, as people like that are the exception, not the rule.

I find what we say interesting and think you make some good points. I don’t know much about DKI so the opinions I have of course a based on limited knowledge.

Is it possible that these seminar's that you talk about (where people are standing still) are introductions to PP training, and not a real life fighting tech's??

 

[Sarah]

It only takes 1 well-placed to get the job done.

I would have to agree with that.