Practicing different applications

[Gerry Seymour]

But... Static balance fires and reacts differently to dynamic balance - it's the brain's ability to adapt responses to suit the situation that means being better at standing on one leg usually means you're better at (say) jumping from post to post.

As for any of this, I can only really speak of what I think I've found beneficial and how.

I can definitely see where you're coming from with the kick scenario - if you just lift your leg and almost let it drift into place (which I must say, I've seen a fair few do).

When I do a slow side kick I force the motion, using the opposing muscles to resist the movement and keep tension throughout - it's quite possible I'm a bit weird in that when I go full speed I just switch off the resistance.

While I don't think it's possible to develop a decent fast kick by exclusively practicing slowly and just expecting it to work, I do think your slow practice would have to outnumber your fast practice by a very significant margin to be detrimental.

That's the point - you're with me on this. A slow kick that's still a kick doesn't have the same issue as a slow kick that's really not a kick anymore.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Why Practice Makes Perfect: How to Rewire Your Brain for Performance

the body action happens when electrical signals are sent down a chain of neurons through the axons. myelin around the axon increases the speed and strength of the signals. practice generates myelinated pathways. variation creates multiple pathways, some of which will be undesirable. more pathways means slower response times or incorrect responses due to undesirable pathways being stronger. this is why i said kicks with different mechanics would be undesirable.

Procedural Memory: Definition and Examples

"the brain retains procedural memory (how to to stuff) but it is not a fixed location or process. if the action is new it takes more activity from certain areas to "learn" the firing pattern. but as the action is set in stone the activated location of the brain moves when doing the action. it takes less and less frontal cortex to recall and preform the action. with practice it will become an unconscious action. similar to putting your foot on the brake of your car.


this statement implies to me that all self defense actions are processed in the frontal cortex. i disagree.
95 percent of brain activity is beyond our conscious awareness

the bulk of "threat recognition and response" from the amygdala is sub conscious. add to that the functional degradation of frontal cortex under the chemical dump of fear. any response that requires the frontal cortex to process is going to be slow and often a bad emotional response.

im getting a little sidetracked sorry...

imagine this,
you are driving a newly designed electric car. the engine throttle is controlled by your right hand, there are three different brake foot pedals. they all function in different ways.. one slows the car and reduces speeds for normal around town travel, another pedal stops the car but in a slow gradual way mostly used for traffic signals and other that holds the car in one spot while the engine idles. imagine driving down the road and a child runs in front of your car. what is the likely hood of you pressing the correct foot pedal? what is the likely hood of you tensing your body, pressing a pedal while also squeezing the throttle?
now think back to all the times you had to stomp on your normal car brake. it was sub conscious, it was fast and it was reliable because there was only one choice that was embedded into the deep procedural memory that does not get processed by the frontal cortex. it was automatic. the car was also designed properly, having to take your foot off the throttle to apply the brake. good martial technique also needs to be designed to account for the human factor.
if the goal is self defense, practicing non functional martial arts is a waste of good neurons..

Using your driving analogy, I think we can see it's a more complex answer. I love to drive a manual transmission car. In emergencies, I've never confused the clutch and accelerator pedals. I've also never (in an emergency) accidentally shifted into the wrong gear (oddly, I've done it when it wasn't an emergency - perhaps too much conscious involvement). On a motorcycle, I've never shifted instead of braking (the feet, in case you're not familiar), nor have I ever accidentally braked when I meant to clutch or accelerated when braking (all stuff with hands).

Oddly, after not driving a manual transmission car for a few years (and having a motorcycle as my primary transport), when driving a friend's manual car, I found myself turning on the turn signal at every shift (left hand needed to do its job).

 

[pdg]

Chopping up your post a bit, (hopefully) not to cause misinterpretation, but to fit with my thought flow...

to me anything that is not logically thought about and consciously decided is automatic. Neuroscientists are increasingly finding there are less decisions then we thought , in fact there may be no such thing as free will at all. but thats a different topic.

It would appear to me that the bulk of our 'disagreement' is one of semantics - what you term automatic I view as subconscious decision making.

***

Conscious decision making (what shall I have for lunch?) is "free will", subconscious decision making you play no active part in while it's in progress (i.e. past the programming stage).

after reading your entire post maybe i should start by saying in a fight there will be some aspects that are conscious and others that will be sub conscious. just like your switching between a kawasaki and an old triumph or Indian. some aspects like balance are sub conscious. you do not need to think about how to actually balance and ride the motorcycle. while shifting the gears will engage the frontal cortex because of the variation and complexity but you do not need the full attention of the cerebellum to coordinate the action the way a new rider would because of prior experience.

A new rider would be in the programming stage, they're testing actions and reactions on a fairly conscious level. Taking someone with little experience and changing something (swapping the gearshift and brake for instance) disrupts the programming of the subconscious decision making process - those variables aren't stored so trying to swap them about causes confusion and passes back to the conscious.

In my case, instead of having to process "how do I stop?" which is complex, all I have to do is subconsciously decide between "press left foot" or "press right foot", which is simple.

i have experienced my own automated reactions where i without conscious thought, caught a hand that was grabbing at me. to your description there might have been a sub conscious decision to catch and grab the hand rather than punch the person in the face. but what about the timing of the grab, the correct placement of my thumb on their hand, the subtle turn of my body and shifting of my weight in a sub conscious preparation for a wrist throw. these small details are all processed by the procedural memory. these details are not regulated by any decision making process either conscious or subconscious.

I contend there was a decision made, with or without your conscious intervention.

A hand was grabbing at you - your brain made the decision to catch it. It could have diverted it instead, but your programming made a catch have the higher probability of ongoing success.

This is situational too - when I'm sparring someone throws a punch and I'll usually try to divert it, so the decision was taken to time my response to go behind their glove and act on their forearm.

It has happened where I've been in "sparring mode" but between rounds and someone threw a glove - the decision was taken without my intervention to catch instead of block/divert. I didn't consciously register there wasn't a person attached to that glove until it was in my hands. If it was truly automatic with no processing of surrounding information variables why didn't I try to divert it? After all, it was glove shaped and heading toward me...

the OP mentioned different ways of kicking that as i read it seemed to me as different mechanics. one where the body counter balances and an other where the weight goes into the kick. do you get to decide which one you use? let go from macro to micro level.. do you get to decide your emotional reaction to an attack? do you decide on where the weight is distributed on your supporting foot? the angle of tilt in your hips?

The first few times you're in the situation you have to fairly consciously decide what your response is.

You don't get to decide the emotional aspect because that's been getting programmed (and preinstall information modified) since birth.

However, once you've started "getting used to it" the list of possible responses shrinks as you progress. You programme what works and discard (or lower priority of) what doesn't.

There's still a decision to be made though - do you block and counter/divert and move then counter/avoid and continue until your next opportunity? Consciously, you couldn't decide fast enough...

And back to the emotional response - you don't actively decide, but you can modify the programme. You can progressively make that situation trigger less fear (which in itself hinders decisions, including subconscious ones) and allow your subconscious to go with the flow.



***Edit: had a thought - it's like an automatic transmission in a car.

It's not really automatic - it's a series of predetermined decisions based on variables (engine speed, road speed, load).

 

[hoshin1600]

Using your driving analogy, I think we can see it's a more complex answer. I love to drive a manual transmission car. In emergencies, I've never confused the clutch and accelerator pedals. I've also never (in an emergency) accidentally shifted into the wrong gear (oddly, I've done it when it wasn't an emergency - perhaps too much conscious involvement). On a motorcycle, I've never shifted instead of braking (the feet, in case you're not familiar), nor have I ever accidentally braked when I meant to clutch or accelerated when braking (all stuff with hands).

Oddly, after not driving a manual transmission car for a few years (and having a motorcycle as my primary transport), when driving a friend's manual car, I found myself turning on the turn signal at every shift (left hand needed to do its job).

your brain knows the function somehow between a brake and a shifter of a motorcycle and a clutch and brake in the car. probably by location. in my example all three pedals were brakes but used for different kinds of braking. that adds a level of complexity to it.
as far as applying the throttle accidentally while braking on a motorcycle ,,,yes ive done it. there are lots of Youtube videos of people doing it. but it is primarily with inexperienced riders (as was i was when i did it,) thus the need for the engagement of the cerebellum to be active in processing and monitoring guiding the sequence of actions. but after you get it you got it.

 

[drop bear]

I have mixed feelings on this. Being able to preform with different dynamics and variation, will in the long run make you a better martial artist. But for pure self defense sub division of mechanics is not good. It prevents neuro pathway growth and automation of the desired action. The action will never really be an automatic response.

Automatic response is detrimental to self defence. It is detrimental to a lot of top end live activities. And is generally wrongly focused on. It goes with this over focus on technique.

Mental elasticity is more applicable.

So if I had to run from point A to point B but it was through a house. So maybe I have to jump over a fence run up some stairs kick a door down climb out a window or whatever.

I would not employ an automatic response. I would be problem solving.

Even if I had trained to solve those problems I would still be adjusting dependent on the live conditions at the time.

 

[hoshin1600]

I contend there was a decision made, with or without your conscious intervention.

while i am enjoying the dialog, i have lost the direction and point of the conversation.

i would say that a decision of sorts is being made on certain things as you say, but some are made subconsciously on an electrical circuit level that we have no conscious control over at the time that circuit was triggered. the decision is based on a path of least resistance unless the frontal cortex tells the circuit to do "the harder thing". and this was my point from the start that practicing non functional self defense moves could ...could ,,,, increase the myelin on those axons that would trigger the non desired kata kick rather than a self defense kick due to it being the path of least resistance.

 

[drop bear]

Sorry there is a simpler way to put this.

A fight isn't a routine. It is a puzzle.

 

[hoshin1600]

Automatic response is detrimental to self defence. It is detrimental to a lot of top end live activities. And is generally wrongly focused on. It goes with this over focus on technique.

Mental elasticity is more applicable.

So if I had to run from point A to point B but it was through a house. So maybe I have to jump over a fence run up some stairs kick a door down climb out a window or whatever.

I would not employ an automatic response. I would be problem solving.

Even if I had trained to solve those problems I would still be adjusting dependent on the live conditions at the time.

your focused on gross motor actions like how to react to a punch. that really wasnt were i was going with this conversation but people keep thinking i am or at least bringing it back to that level.. i am talking more about things like the automatic way we make a fist. i mentioned where i place my thumb on a persons hand for a wrist throw/ lock. this is the automation i am talking about. thats why i keep mentioning the MECHANICS of a kick. maybe if i say the method of power generation.

 

[pdg]

while i am enjoying the dialog, i have lost the direction and point of the conversation.

I think the real direction was lost a fair few posts back

i would say that a decision of sorts is being made on certain things as you say, but some are made subconsciously on an electrical circuit level that we have no conscious control over at the time that circuit was triggered. the decision is based on a path of least resistance unless the frontal cortex tells the circuit to do "the harder thing". and this was my point from the start that practicing non functional self defense moves could ...could ,,,, increase the myelin on those axons that would trigger the non desired kata kick rather than a self defense kick due to it being the path of least resistance.

Ah, there's the direction - I knew it was around somewhere

That harks back to the jist of a comment I made earlier, where I actively try to make the path of least resistance the 'effective' version (in fact, I've only very recently realised I've been doing that).

By keeping intensity and tension in my 'performance' actions, the "throw it hard" version is the easier option to subconsciously decide upon.

 

[hoshin1600]

let me put a visual to my thoughts.. if you practice your martial art like this 90 % of the time ,,,,as amazing as it is. if you only kick the bag a few times every once in a while...what do you think is going to happen when you need to defend yourself?

 

[hoshin1600]

let me put a visual to my thoughts.. if you practice your martial art like this 90 % of the time ,,,,as amazing as it is. if you only kick the bag a few times every once in a while...what do you think is going to happen when you need to defend yourself?

the answer GYM KATA

 

[pdg]

your focused on gross motor actions like how to react to a punch. that really wasnt were i was going with this conversation but people keep thinking i am or at least bringing it back to that level.. i am talking more about things like the automatic way we make a fist. i mentioned where i place my thumb on a persons hand for a wrist throw/ lock. this is the automation i am talking about. thats why i keep mentioning the MECHANICS of a kick. maybe if i say the method of power generation.

Those are also things where the programme sometimes needs modifying so the decision can be made.

Tell a kid to make a fist - a lot of times they'll wrap their fingers around their thumb (or like my wife did, point their thumb straight out forwards). That 'automatic' response (the brain's decision of how to place digits) needs changing.

 

[pdg]

let me put a visual to my thoughts.. if you practice your martial art like this 90 % of the time ,,,,as amazing as it is. if you only kick the bag a few times every once in a while...what do you think is going to happen when you need to defend yourself?

That would be a case of what I said earlier, where the 'wrong' sort of practice becomes detrimental because it outweighs the 'correct' practice by a significant margin.

 

[hoshin1600]

Those are also things where the programme sometimes needs modifying so the decision can be made.

Tell a kid to make a fist - a lot of times they'll wrap their fingers around their thumb (or like my wife did, point their thumb straight out forwards). That 'automatic' response (the brain's decision of how to place digits) needs changing.

YES but that what i was saying ...when you got it you got it. this is the skill part and the procedural memory is the "how to" you dont have to think about it anymore.

 

[pdg]

YES but that what i was saying ...when you got it you got it. this is the skill part and the procedural memory is the "how to" you dont have to think about it anymore.

Procedural memory = list of weighted variables applicable to subconscious decision making


Effectively, we seem to be kind of on the same page (but because this is a text based conversation and I tend to blather on it's taken hours to get there).

The possible difference is that I consider what DB termed mental elasticity can also be part of what you call automatic response.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Automatic response is detrimental to self defence. It is detrimental to a lot of top end live activities. And is generally wrongly focused on. It goes with this over focus on technique.

Mental elasticity is more applicable.

So if I had to run from point A to point B but it was through a house. So maybe I have to jump over a fence run up some stairs kick a door down climb out a window or whatever.

I would not employ an automatic response. I would be problem solving.

Even if I had trained to solve those problems I would still be adjusting dependent on the live conditions at the time.

Those adjustments are not at the fully conscious level, though. The example I’d use is dribbling downfield on a football pitch (I feel all British saying that) toward a pair of defenders. You might choose an approach consciously, but not the shifts and dodges you use to get past them.

 

[skribs]

Yes and no I think

The body is a master of compensation, performing a kick in ultra slomo uses the same muscles (but as you said, fires differently) and commits the end point.

If your goal then is to do it fast to the same end point (a to b) "nature will find a way" and that way is invariably the easiest.

I consider it much the same as how practicing to balance on one leg in a variety of positions helps improve stability on two legs.

There's different muscles working, though. For example, in a practical side kick, the power is going to come from the extension, which is going to be in extending your leg. The muscles there are primarily going to be in your butt and thighs, and the power is going go straight through your leg. The direction of force is side-to-side, from your body through your foot.

In holding a side kick, you're not working on the extension, but on carrying the load. The muscles that will be engaged here are the muscles in your hip and your lateral abdominal muscles, and the strain is going to be to maintain the height of the kick. The direction of the force is up-and-down, a fight against gravity.

There's a difference in flexibility in static vs. dynamic stretching. There's a difference in doing a bench press vs. holding a weight straight out in front of you. There's a difference in what muscles are worked and how they are worked in a slow kick vs. a fast kick.

 

[pdg]

There's different muscles working, though. For example, in a practical side kick, the power is going to come from the extension, which is going to be in extending your leg. The muscles there are primarily going to be in your butt and thighs, and the power is going go straight through your leg. The direction of force is side-to-side, from your body through your foot.

In holding a side kick, you're not working on the extension, but on carrying the load. The muscles that will be engaged here are the muscles in your hip and your lateral abdominal muscles, and the strain is going to be to maintain the height of the kick. The direction of the force is up-and-down, a fight against gravity.

There's a difference in flexibility in static vs. dynamic stretching. There's a difference in doing a bench press vs. holding a weight straight out in front of you. There's a difference in what muscles are worked and how they are worked in a slow kick vs. a fast kick.

I didn't say holding, I said slow motion under self imposed tension during extension. So, you are working on extension (and also on retarding that extension, which in the case of a side kick works on the bits you use for a hook kick).

You still need to lift your leg up to the side to do a fast side kick too. Doing it slowly helps increase height and accuracy for your fast ones.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I didn't say holding, I said slow motion under self imposed tension during extension. So, you are working on extension (and also on retarding that extension, which in the case of a side kick works on the bits you use for a hook kick).

You still need to lift your leg up to the side to do a fast side kick too. Doing it slowly helps increase height and accuracy for your fast ones.

If you had my (lack of) flexibility, you might see a bit more of our point on this. On a slow kick, I cannot get a round kick much to waist level. In application, I can comfortably kick to just above 5.5 feet (my own head height).

 

[pdg]

If you had my (lack of) flexibility, you might see a bit more of our point on this. On a slow kick, I cannot get a round kick much to waist level. In application, I can comfortably kick to just above 5.5 feet (my own head height).

I can kick higher dynamically than slowly too, that's (probably) a given for everyone isn't it?

I do have a smaller differential than you describe for yourself though - slowly I can get to approx nipple height with a side kick, shoulder to neck with turning kick (roundhouse). Dynamically, I can just clear my own height (5'11" ish) with either.

Where I do have the same sort of differential to you is to the front - for a downward kick (axe kick?) I can get around waist height slowly, but face height with some speed involved...

I'd like a few more inches on the height going fast though, so I'm doing more work on the slow - and, for me, it's helping.