Please Help With Crime Victim Identification

[Bill Mattocks]

man some one is putting to much on it ! look dude if any guy walks in to a dojo asking for it most likely he is gonna get it ? there was no audio to that video so i would have to hear his pleas for mercy to actually believe he didnt want to fight anymore and who ever said that he wouldnt of survived such an attack probably has never been in a ruff spot ...

There are several things wrong with this.

If a person walks into a dojo and says they want to fight, I would expect someone would oblige them. No problem.

However, the man said specifically that he did NOT want to fight, he wanted to demonstrate the forms that had been taught to him by Jesus Christ (presumably, I did not hear him say that on the video). He was attempting to do just that when the BB student attacked him, saying "Oh, you mean like this?"

The victim told the BB to stop, and defended himself against the attack (pretty well, too, it appeared). He repeated that he did not want to fight, only to demonstrate his forms, and he was attacked again and again.

A dojo is not a free-for-all. If I walk in to my dojo tonight, I do not expect to be attacked by my seniors, and if I said "Hey, stop it!" and they did not, that would be an illegal assault and battery of my person. Being in a dojo is not the same as being in a free-fire zone.

Even if we get past that (the victim said he did not want to fight, and asked the attacker to stop), the attack continued long past the point where the victim was unable to continue to defend himself. Stomping on his head as he lay on the ground bleeding and unconscious is a crime, in any place I know of. In the ring, on the street, in self-defense, etc. There are simply no set of circumstances under which it would be OK for that BB to continue the assault once the man was out cold on the floor by stomping repeatedly on his head.

Then we get the ignoring of the man's obviously injured condition by refusing to render aid or even call for medical assistance, but to simply order the man dragged out the back door, stripped of his sash, and abandoned to his fate, whatever that might have been.

Oh yeah, there's a lot wrong here. It's so sick, but for the quality of the video showing the man's wounds, I would have suspected it was a modern creation intended to promote a new movie - such as "The Foot Fist Way," which the sensei clearly resembles in an unintentionally ironic way.

(warning, language, situations, ugly portrayal of MA):

 

[Tez3]

I think he was referring in part to the instructor and the black belt student, whose names have been released and are probably contactable.

Styg, like you said, the difference in this video and any other fight is that they were wearing gi's, but it is that crucial fact that separates this assault from the other ones anywhere else. When you walk into the dojo, you are expected to present yourself in a certain manner, and black belts should have a degree of decorum that sets an example for the rest of the students.

That this man was mentally handicapped, I have no doubt, but it is possible he was no more handicapped than any other bozo who walks into a school with a few do-it-yourself karate chapters udner his belt or maybe a few years of another style. He tipped me off fairly quickly that he was not all that skilled when he would not identify his teacher, would not demonstrate on the black belt, and was, apparently, wearing a tie to the dojo.

It saddens me to think that there are dojos out there with this mentality, and I hope that somebody brings these men (all of them in the dojo) to justice, and the truth behind what happened to the victim comes to light.

then why are they appealing for information to identify them? If they are contactable surely everything would have been explained or a prosececution in progress by now? this is what's confusing me!

 

[suicide]

what ever the case maybe ? he got caught up and unless this guy wants to press charges i dont see why people are trying to become his public defender after so many years it dont make sense ? this guy probably doesnt want no one to know who he is hes probably running his own dojo by now and it would effect his buisness ... if you got beat down would you want the world to know you got whooped on ? or would you just take it like a man and walk away with your head up - you live and you learn dude thats all i got to say ! :shooter:

everybody knows the instructors name and his black belt why doesnt anyone contact them and get there side of the story before all this conspiring against them ... :whip1:

i heard a similar story like this about ed parker how these 3 black dudes walked into to one of his schools clowning and mocking one of his instructors , ed parker in civilian clothes was like come in let see what you got dude made a move
parker trapped on him and scooped kicked the guys balls and left em in fetul position on the mat :angel:

 

[Bill Mattocks]

then why are they appealing for information to identify them? If they are contactable surely everything would have been explained or a prosececution in progress by now? this is what's confusing me!

I believe they are trying to identify the VICTIM. They know perfectly well whom the aggressors were.

The reason this is important is because if the victim is not dead, the statute of limitations may well have run out on any crime that may have been committed. Hence, nothing law enforcement could do about it. If the victim did indeed die from his wounds or as a result of them, then perhaps (and only perhaps) a charge of murder could be lodged, which has no statute of limitations. Under that situation, the sensei and his BB could be charged with crimes.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

i heard a similar story like this about ed parker how these 3 black dudes walked into to one of his schools clowning and mocking one of his instructors , ed parker in civilian clothes was like come in let see what you got dude made a move
parker trapped on him and scooped kicked the guys balls and left em in fetul position on the mat :angel:

Ed Parker did not kill the man and dump his body to avoid being discovered, did he?

That's pretty much the difference. People are shocked and want to know if the man lived or died. If he lived, there is probably nothing that could be legally done to the sensei and his BB. If he died, then it may be murder.

Is there something unclear about that?

 

[suicide]

so the victim in this case died ?

 

[Bill Mattocks]

so the victim in this case died ?

That's what they're trying to find out. No one apparently knows, but some believe that given the severity of his apparent wounds, he may well have. With no body, and no name of the victim, it's rather difficult to ascertain what if anything happened after the man was dragged out the back of the dojo.

 

[Tez3]

I believe they are trying to identify the VICTIM. They know perfectly well whom the aggressors were.

The reason this is important is because if the victim is not dead, the statute of limitations may well have run out on any crime that may have been committed. Hence, nothing law enforcement could do about it. If the victim did indeed die from his wounds or as a result of them, then perhaps (and only perhaps) a charge of murder could be lodged, which has no statute of limitations. Under that situation, the sensei and his BB could be charged with crimes.

Ah, sorted! thanks.
I think a slightly less sensationalist approach would have been better, a general appeal in the media would probably bring more information in than frantically posting on forums all round the world.
This OP isn't as lurid as some I've seen,it's reasonable but it's almost as if it's the 'excitement' of seeing someone battered is the point of posting with the excuse that someone is looking for information. Quite disturbing in many ways, it makes me a bit suspicious too when they post it up, decry whats going on, say it's being posted for people to inform but then give no information as who to contact ie police if you do know who it is. I don't think posting it up on U Tube is going to help.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Ah, sorted! thanks.
I think a slightly less sensationalist approach would have been better, a general appeal in the media would probably bring more information in than frantically posting on forums all round the world.
This OP isn't as lurid as some I've seen,it's reasonable but it's almost as if it's the 'excitement' of seeing someone battered is the point of posting with the excuse that someone is looking for information. Quite disturbing in many ways, it makes me a bit suspicious too when they post it up, decry whats going on, say it's being posted for people to inform but then give no information as who to contact ie police if you do know who it is. I don't think posting it up on U Tube is going to help.

it seems the initial posts did manage to help ID the sensei and BB in question, which were also mysteries at first; at least that's what I understand.

There were students in that class, and some of them might have told others of the day they saw this event. If the man was mentally challenged, he might well have been known to merchants and residents in the area, who might recognize his face. If the video and appeal is widely distributed, perhaps one of them might recollect and offer information that could help solve this 'cold case'.

It's kind of like an Amber Alert or 'Crimestoppers' to try to get someone who knew the man or knew of the event to step forward.

 

[suicide]

the beating was even all that for him to have died ? dont know where the worries of his survival came about ... damn weaklings

 

[Bill Mattocks]

the beating was even all that for him to have died ? dont know where the worries of his survival came about ... damn weaklings

OK, I think we're done here. Good luck to you.

 

[suicide]

no disrespect matt , just looks to me like a normal kenpo sparring match ...

 

[Tez3]

it seems the initial posts did manage to help ID the sensei and BB in question, which were also mysteries at first; at least that's what I understand.

There were students in that class, and some of them might have told others of the day they saw this event. If the man was mentally challenged, he might well have been known to merchants and residents in the area, who might recognize his face. If the video and appeal is widely distributed, perhaps one of them might recollect and offer information that could help solve this 'cold case'.

It's kind of like an Amber Alert or 'Crimestoppers' to try to get someone who knew the man or knew of the event to step forward.

It's not the ones on the sites like MT as I know that wouldn't be acceptable, that got me thinking so much as one or too I've seen which were more or less, 'wow, fantastic, watch this guy getting beaten up oh and they're looking for whoever it was but we don't really care'. this is distasteful though I think that they may have believed it was television or a film and therefore not real. Not nice.

add on.. as I was saying, just like suicide's attitude, c'mon, thats just not nice at all.

 

[sgtmac_46]

It wasn't a "fist fight"; it was a pre-meditated assault of a possibly mentally challenged young man who made very clear that he didn't want to fight.

Time passed = Zero relevance.

Again, IIRC, you and I usually agreed on such issues back when I was an active poster here years ago. I do respect your opinion, but must disagree on this.

Clarification: the consensus is that it is not known whether he survived the assault and NOT that his injuries weren't "survivable".

Now you're concluding things you could not POSSIBLE know......you don't even know who the guy is, thus the call for someone to tell you.......but you've concluded he was mentally challenged. That's an awful lot of assumptions.

 

[sgtmac_46]

I think he was referring in part to the instructor and the black belt student, whose names have been released and are probably contactable.

Styg, like you said, the difference in this video and any other fight is that they were wearing gi's, but it is that crucial fact that separates this assault from the other ones anywhere else. When you walk into the dojo, you are expected to present yourself in a certain manner, and black belts should have a degree of decorum that sets an example for the rest of the students.

That this man was mentally handicapped, I have no doubt, but it is possible he was no more handicapped than any other bozo who walks into a school with a few do-it-yourself karate chapters udner his belt or maybe a few years of another style. He tipped me off fairly quickly that he was not all that skilled when he would not identify his teacher, would not demonstrate on the black belt, and was, apparently, wearing a tie to the dojo.

It saddens me to think that there are dojos out there with this mentality, and I hope that somebody brings these men (all of them in the dojo) to justice, and the truth behind what happened to the victim comes to light.

Well, it's obvious that this school was a clown thug school........probably called themselves Cobra Kai Karate........but this happened in 1984, so half of those involved may be collecting social security by now.

 

[jks9199]

I honestly don't know how any 'experts' can declare anything of the sort. What I saw in the video, while graphic, wasn't any more brutal than many after school fights i've witnessed at the local ball field while I was in high school. I hardly saw any indication of a 'fatality'. Bottom line, a few 'experts' are talking out of the wrong end.

As for 'justice'.........the crime likely amounted to felony assault at most, and given that it's been 25 years......i'm suspecting the statute of limitations has long since expired.

You could argue for malicious wounding or aggravated assault; both are felonies in Virginia. We have no statute of limitations on most felonies.

But there's also an argument to be made that no crime occurred; it was a case of mutual, agreed combat.

I doubt the guy died; even in Dumfries, a body found in a dumpster would have been investigated.

 

[sgtmac_46]

then why are they appealing for information to identify them? If they are contactable surely everything would have been explained or a prosececution in progress by now? this is what's confusing me!

I'd say the problem is that much of what people claim they know about the subject is mere assumption based on the video clip. The story is heavy on supposition, light on real facts.

 

[suicide]

how can someone say he was mentally challenged ? dude looks perfectly alrite to me ? he kicked the black belt down and defended himself and fought back - alot of people got ridiculous looks on there faces doesnt mean there mentally challenged :BSmeter:

 

[sgtmac_46]

You could argue for malicious wounding or aggravated assault; both are felonies in Virginia. We have no statute of limitations on most felonies.

But there's also an argument to be made that no crime occurred; it was a case of mutual, agreed combat.

I doubt the guy died; even in Dumfries, a body found in a dumpster would have been investigated.

Bingo......and the sad fact of the matter is that the victim may have died long ago, for causes far removed from this assault.......meaning there is no victim to pursue charges. 25 years is a LONG time!

 

[jks9199]

Anyone know why this video should emerge all this time later? It's turned up all over the place even on a UK MMA site I go on with the poster, a newbie, asking if we recognise anyone! It just seems strange that it turns up now.
The other thing that confuses me is that on one hand the OP is asking for anyone who recognises these people to come forward and then says " I don't believe any members here have been making harassing calls to any in these videos" does that mean the people in the video are identified now?

According to the Washington Post article linked above, it's actually been floating around for a while. It just got new life recently when it got posted on YouTube.