Please Help With Crime Victim Identification

[sgtmac_46]

Trust us..as LEO's, while we may not know the facts in this case, we do have a good grasp on how situations like this "work" within the media/court/LE investigative realms. Sgt Mac is making valid points. The ability to even identify this person is a reach, let alone locating him or tracking down if he is alive. Proving even recent cases without a body are difficult. Even if he is dead, the ability to link his death to this particular event are slim...especially if the person was homeless to begin with.

None of us are saying that this case is "not so bad" or that it doesn't bear looking into. I would just say don't expect much to happen.

Exactly! The issue is the belief and demand that law enforcement do something about a 25 year old cold case of an assault........and that's a pretty unreasonable demand, given the nature of cases like this.

Moreover, we already have a retired detective stating he talked to this guy after the fact 25 years ago, and he refused to prosecute then........now we have a couple conclusions to come to with that.....

1) The officer is telling the truth, the guy lived, and didn't seem interested in prosecuting 25 years ago (and is probably not locatable).

2) The officer is part of a HUGE conspiracy to hide the truth, 25 years after the fact, because he is SO loyal to Bobby Joe Blythe, who probably hasn't lived in that area in 20 years, that he's willing to put his retirement and reputation on the line to run interference for him.......REALLY FOLKS? SERIOUSLY?

 

[sgtmac_46]

Well ... maybe we're reading different articles or something, because it seems that the police ... educated in martial arts or not ... know where Blythe is and have another victim who has stepped forward but are waiting to file charges, probably to see if they can tack this media-grabbing story on. Not sure why they want to wait, they have enough to charge him with the video evidence and it sounds like with the second victim's statement. They clearly want to identify the attacker in the video posted.

Video evidence of an unidentified person who was assaulted 25 years ago, and refused to press charges.......not as open and shut a case as you might think.

Is the guy dead? We don't know - the "someone saw him and he was limping" line carries about as much weight as the Quantico line. Could it be proven that the beating caused his death if he is dead? We don't know that. Who saw him alive? The police? If so, why weren't charges brought up then? Could it be Blythe's connections with law enforcement? Was the victim written off because of his mental/residential status? I think the people who do have the answers to those questions probably aren't on this board (with all due respect).

With all due respect, 'Someone' didn't just 'see' him limping.....A retired Detective saw him LIMPING more than a week AFTER the assault, and TALKED to him.......EYEWITNESS statements carry VASTLY more weight than some other current detective talking out of his nether regions about being 'trained in judo at Quantico' based solely on watching the same tape you and I did....

...and HERE we go with the conspiracy theories.......because at the end of the day, one has to fall back on a vast police conspiracy to protect Bobby Joe years after the fact in order to still cling to 'He might have died and had his body dumped' story.......because the belief in a vast conspiracy is what is required to discount the retired detectives statement.

I think there are too many answered AND unanswered questions here for anyone to speculate they know what's going to happen.

We've got a few answers, but some folks don't like them because they don't fit the theories they've built up surrounding the video.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Unless some new evidence turns up, i'm going to leave it at that, because what we have now tentatively speaks for itself, until further evidence becomes available.

At any rate, spirited discussion.......but I just don't see it going any further than it has. Now, if the guy who also claims to have been assaulted wants to pursue charges, then these guys might get an assault charge conviction. Problem is, how severely was he assaulted. If all he got was a black eye and a busted lip, that's just misdemeanor assault......and has a statute of limitations.

Further, even in dealing with the subject in the video, even though his injuries look bad, being knocked unconscious and bleeding cannot necessarily be proven to be 'serious physical injury'.......especially if the victim never went to a doctor. So without knowing the degree of actual injury (which is VERY difficult to determine simply by watching a video tape) you then have the complicated task of determining the degree of injury from the statement of the victim (good luck!) and then the subjective testimony of expert witnesses, attempting to derive degree of injury simply by watching the video.

At the end of the day, the folks who think this is an easy, slam dunker of a case........have NEVER gotten closer to putting a case together than watching CSI or Law and Order.

 

[jks9199]

UPDATE:



Quite frankly, if I had had my *** kicked in a dojo owned by a former marine who had connections with local law enforcement and who worked security ... I might not want to show my face either. Successful prosecution in this scenario would seem slanted to fail.

:asian:

Here's the problem with those "other victims."

Were they really a victim, or did they enter into a sporting match and lose? I'm sure that Blythe's argument would be that they came into his dojo willingly, to "demonstrate their fighting prowess" or somesuch and lost. Prove it's different...

A beating that would easily be qualified as an aggravated malicious wounding under Virginia law is perfectly legal within the confines of a boxing ring...

 

[jks9199]

First and foremost would be identifying the victim in this case. My initial thoughts on an investigation would be to look for any DB's that came into the ME's office around that date. I'd look for reports that may have been filed...reports linked to the school...look for the current location of the instructors/students and interview them. If they tell me to go screw myself, I don't know how much leverage I would have on them in this old of a case. I'm betting that there have been a number of people claiming or thinking they know who the victim was...Id have to follow-up on them.

Beyond that?

From the one article, they seem to have checked for a dead body (unidentified or otherwise) that would be the guy's, with no luck.

Beyond that... regarding traveling to interview former students... Money's tight. Resources are scarce. And even a phone interview takes time, on both sides.

It seems that they're trying to work what they can. But there's just not a lot to work with... And Dumfries PD is a whole 'nother question entirely.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Here's the problem with those "other victims."

Were they really a victim, or did they enter into a sporting match and lose? I'm sure that Blythe's argument would be that they came into his dojo willingly, to "demonstrate their fighting prowess" or somesuch and lost. Prove it's different...

A beating that would easily be qualified as an aggravated malicious wounding under Virginia law is perfectly legal within the confines of a boxing ring...

And that would be if it happened last week........without even adding the complexity of 25 years after the fact.

And furthermore, misdemeanor assault DOES have a statute of limitations, so unless there was provable SERIOUS injury on their behalf, provable by MEDICAL RECORDS after the event, that statute of limitations for simple assault and battery is up.

A lot of folks have the idea 'I see the video, so it's an open and shut case'.........not so! Not even close, actually. The State STILL has the burden of proving, beyond a reasonable doubt, that a crime has been committed AND that the crime in question was a FELONY of which there is no statute of limitation in Virginia, which requires proof of 'SERIOUS' physical injury, as defined by statute, as distinct from mere physical injury, which would constitute simple assault and battery, and thus misdemeanor assault.



Now the shear flood of public sentiment MAY prompt local prosecutors to charge Bobby Joe Blythe with something.......but watch closely what happens after that. Like the resent case in Arnold, Mo., where the gal was harassing the 13 year old neighbor girl that subsequently committed suicide, the federal government attempted a prosecution based on popular sentiment.......but once in the court they STILL have to fit the statutory requirements of the law.......and a judge subsequently decided that the case was STRETCHING the definition of the statutes being cited beyond the realm of their intent and purpose.

On Law and Order the the DA may get away with creative prosecution based on clever interpretations of the law.......but in the REAL world judges tend to frown on that.

 

[shesulsa]

So my question, then, for Sarge and JKS would be this: if they DO charge Blythe with assault based on the video evidence and any testimony from the "other victim" would that be a miscarriage of justice? Would convicting him be?

Please understand - my fascination here is that conclusions are just *so* often jumped to by everyone. I like to play devil's advocate because I think we challenge ourselves to examine what's before us and in conversing we learn from each other ... hopefully.

The press is putting forth the notion that the PD is actively pursuing this case. Might that not be the truth in the interest of appeasing the local and internet communities? Why would they publish inaccurate and seemingly ignorant statements about one man's training - is that indicative of individual ignorance or was it bait (wanting to draw the victim out)?

Is this all just a song and dance being sold to soothe people's feathers? Why not, instead, be honest and say, 'we can't do anything here?' Fear of retribution?

Please enlighten. Thanks.

 

[sgtmac_46]

So my question, then, for Sarge and JKS would be this: if they DO charge Blythe with assault based on the video evidence and any testimony from the "other victim" would that be a miscarriage of justice? Would convicting him be?

They won't be able to charge him for assault on the victim in the video without the victim in the video. It is also highly unlikely that they will be able to introduce the video AS evidence in the other assault, as it is not evidence of that assault. The prosecutor will attempt to do so in order to show a propensity to engage in this kind of activity, but any decent defense attorney will have it suppressed in a suppression hearing as unduly prejudicial without adding anything of substance to the facts of the case charged, which is a different assault. The ONLY way that this video might get introduced is if Bobby Joe Blithe or the other guy take the stand in their own defense, then it might be used to impeach their credibility, but they are not required per the 5th Amendment to testify in their own trial.

And this is ALL dependent on being able to prove several things ABOUT the other assault, which we can presume no video documentation exists.

1) That it occurred at all (and isn't just someone looking for publicity)
2) That it can be PROVEN to have occurred at all (i.e. not just some guys word for it)
3) That it constituted FELONY assault, of which there is no statute of limitations in Virginia, and not misdemeanor assault, of which there IS a statute of limitations, and the difference being the difference between Physical injury, and 'SERIOUS' physical injury, and proving that without some kind of documentation is a challenge in it's own right.

That's just three issues right off the top of my head.

Please understand - my fascination here is that conclusions are just *so* often jumped to by everyone. I like to play devil's advocate because I think we challenge ourselves to examine what's before us and in conversing we learn from each other ... hopefully.

Oh I agree, that's the position I take on most things. It makes for interesting conversations. It's actually an interesting topic, from a purely theoretical perspective.

I expect Law and Order to have an episode about it in a few weeks.......though their prosecutor will use some obscure law to prosecute Bobby Joe Blythe, but that only works in Hollywood. 'Creative use' of the law tends to be frowned on by most judges.

The press is putting forth the notion that the PD is actively pursuing this case. Might that not be the truth in the interest of appeasing the local and internet communities? Why would they publish inaccurate and seemingly ignorant statements about one man's training - is that indicative of individual ignorance or was it bait (wanting to draw the victim out)?

Individual ignorance.

This guy didn't train at Quantico.......his skills were far more likely to have been derived from catching Kung Fu sagas at the matinee. Many folks perceived some level of skills watching the video that were not really there. Certainly no 'Judo' skills were displayed whatsoever, which really shows that particular officers complete ignorance on matters of martial arts......which is not really uncommon.......many officers 'expertise' on the subject begin with and end with their few block hours of training in the academy, and some barely passed that.

There's nothing that they would say that is going to draw out a mentally ill man who 25 years ago got assaulted.......They know this guy is long gone, many years gone, in fact. The life expectency of a mentally ill (likely schizophrenic) man living on the streets isn't that long.

Is this all just a song and dance being sold to soothe people's feathers? Why not, instead, be honest and say, 'we can't do anything here?' Fear of retribution?

Please enlighten. Thanks.

They don't want to say 'We can't do anything' because that would be impolitic.......instead they are going to say 'We are looking in to it and we'll do all can'........which MEANS the same thing, but sounds better.


Now, if this guy does happen to step in to the local PD office there saying he's that guy, and wants to make a report, they'll take his statement and forward a prosecution request to the Prosecutor........but the notion that these detectives are spending their time scouring the country for this guy is really silly to anyone who is actually ever done investigative work........as I said in a previous post, they are more interested in the shooting at the local crack house 2 weeks ago, and the four dozen other open cases on their desk, most of which occurred at least in this decade, not before some of them were born.


However, I can tell you that there very likely is A detective or two, likely the two quoted, who's chief DID say 'It's your case, enjoy it....do what you can.....the prosecutor is going to be asking for some kind of report, as the media is up up HIS *** too!.'......and they've been cussing Bobby Joe Blythe AND anonymous Jesus-fu guy EVER since!

 

[grydth]

The LEOs who post here are almost certainly correct in asserting that this case is not, as a practical matter, viable as a criminal prosecution. The statute of limitations (unless murder could be proven) alone would be fatal.

Another hurdle would be that this comes across on the video as a mutual combat; indeed it appears as if the yltimate victim came to the dojo looking for trouble. Does that excuse what was done to him? No, but he may see or believe that his actions were criminal as well.... or 25 years later, he may well be fried and not even coherent. What prosecutor wants that as a lead witness?

As offensive as this video is, be careful how far you wish to open Pandora's Box..... for you may find that this is merely the only surviving video version of a practice which occurred way too often "in the good old days". Indeed, you may find worse examples, such as where the victims were lured in for an assault or where organized thugs went outside of their own schools and suppressed any other dojos, any other styles which tried to open in the area.

You might find some of today's respected MA elders did things much like this in the past. Once this type of criminal behavior was the subject of proud boasts in certain circles.... but then, dog and cock fighting used to be okay, too.

Perhaps it is better to let the past alone and focus on the future......

 

[elder999]

for you may find that this is merely the only surviving video version of a practice which occurred way too often "in the good old days". Indeed, you may find worse examples, such as where the victims were lured in for an assault or where organized thugs went outside of their own schools and suppressed any other dojos, any other styles which tried to open in the area.

You might find some of today's respected MA elders did things much like this in the past. Once this type of criminal behavior was the subject of proud boasts in certain circles.... but then, dog and cock fighting used to be okay, too.

..

That's what I'm talking about.....challenges, dojo wars, and beat-downs were somewhat commonplace when I was a kid.

 

[Tez3]

And there's TMA people saying that MMA is bad..............

 

[jks9199]

So my question, then, for Sarge and JKS would be this: if they DO charge Blythe with assault based on the video evidence and any testimony from the "other victim" would that be a miscarriage of justice? Would convicting him be?

Please understand - my fascination here is that conclusions are just *so* often jumped to by everyone. I like to play devil's advocate because I think we challenge ourselves to examine what's before us and in conversing we learn from each other ... hopefully.

The press is putting forth the notion that the PD is actively pursuing this case. Might that not be the truth in the interest of appeasing the local and internet communities? Why would they publish inaccurate and seemingly ignorant statements about one man's training - is that indicative of individual ignorance or was it bait (wanting to draw the victim out)?

Is this all just a song and dance being sold to soothe people's feathers? Why not, instead, be honest and say, 'we can't do anything here?' Fear of retribution?

Please enlighten. Thanks.

It would be a near legal impossibility; you have to understand that the justice system and the concept justice have only a nodding acquaintance. On a good day... (And, for reasons that are way off topic, it's probably a good thing overall.)

The charge at issue would be assault. Depending on the extent of the injury and the nature of the assault, it would be either simple assault (a misdemeanor), malicious wounding (felony), or aggravated malicious wounding. (felony) I don't think there's even a small chance of anything approaching homicide unless it's shown that the victim died within a year and a day as a result of injuries received in this beating. A daring prosecutor might try to make a mob assault case (on the theory that the entire group participated by watching even though only one person did the beating) -- but I doubt it. Way too many problems with that one... To move from simple assault, the prosecutor would have to show that either the intent of the assault was to do such serious harm to the victim that their day to day function would be impaired or that they would be maimed or permanently disfigured, or that the injuries received did such damage. I know of several cases with significant unarmed beatings that have been held not to rise to this level, and I've worked hard to demonstrate the extent of the injuries to get it to hold in several myself. In other words -- there's a very good chance that this may not rise to the level of a felony, under Virginia law. Especially since we have to really go back and look at the laws as they were written 25 years ago, not what they say today...

And the PD is certainly doing a publicity inspired investigation. I strongly suspect that the most that will come out of it is a public statement that either the victim was located, identified, and is fine... or cannot be identified. And my money's on the latter. They'll document what they've done to find him (detectives contacted other students, the ME's office, fliers were posted, extensive internet coverage, etc.) and leave it be. Even if identified, unless it's a homicide, I just don't see a prosecution going forward.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Bobby Joe Blythe must be one serious idiot to look at these tapes, 25 years later and say 'You know, i'm proud enough of this to post it on Youtube'...........any normal person, even if 25 years ago they were jackass enough to do something like this, would look at the tapes and say 'Yeah......not sure I want folks to know i'm really that big of a jackass........think i'll just burn these and pretend it never happened.'

 

[Archangel M]

So my question, then, for Sarge and JKS would be this: if they DO charge Blythe with assault based on the video evidence and any testimony from the "other victim" would that be a miscarriage of justice? Would convicting him be?

Please understand - my fascination here is that conclusions are just *so* often jumped to by everyone. I like to play devil's advocate because I think we challenge ourselves to examine what's before us and in conversing we learn from each other ... hopefully.

The press is putting forth the notion that the PD is actively pursuing this case. Might that not be the truth in the interest of appeasing the local and internet communities? Why would they publish inaccurate and seemingly ignorant statements about one man's training - is that indicative of individual ignorance or was it bait (wanting to draw the victim out)?

Is this all just a song and dance being sold to soothe people's feathers? Why not, instead, be honest and say, 'we can't do anything here?' Fear of retribution?

Please enlighten. Thanks.

You also have to remember that we are LEO's, not lawyers, judges or politicians. We investigate crimes, make arrests and try to put together as solid a case as possible to hand over to the court system. What they do with it from there can be as aggravating, confusing and illogical to US as it can be to YOU. If not even moreso.

To be truthful. In our profession there are times when a case is "solid" and meets all the criteria of the written statute and sometimes the charge can be a "stretch". Which means that the circumstances of the case somewhat fit the statute but may require some legal wrangling/argument from the prosecutor to pass judicial muster. Sometimes we have NO real case but the political situation is such that to placate public outrage criminal proceedings are started anyway, much as my colleagues have already stated.

Is that "right"? Well, IMO there are differences between manufacturing evidence, malicious prosecution and fabrication of charges and "placation" cases like the "cheerleader mom" case previously mentioned and perhaps even this one. The public doesn't like the other examples but seem to demand the last at times.

It's the nature of the beast.

 

[Tez3]

You also have to remember that we are LEO's, not lawyers, judges or politicians. We investigate crimes, make arrests and try to put together as solid a case as possible to hand over to the court system. What they do with it from there can be as aggravating, confusing and illogical to US as it can be to YOU. If not even moreso.

To be truthful. In our profession there are times when a case is "solid" and meets all the criteria of the written statute and sometimes the charge can be a "stretch". Which means that the circumstances of the case somewhat fit the statute but may require some legal wrangling/argument from the prosecutor to pass judicial muster. Sometimes we have NO real case but the political situation is such that to placate public outrage criminal proceedings are started anyway, much as my colleagues have already stated.


Is that "right"? Well, IMO there are differences between manufacturing evidence, malicious prosecution and fabrication of charges and "placation" cases like the "cheerleader mom" case previously mentioned and perhaps even this one. The public doesn't like the other examples but seem to demand the last at times.

It's the nature of the beast.

Like ours not a perfect system but if anyone can come with anything better that pleases all the people, all the time, I'm sure we'd like to hear from you!

 

[Carol]

Like ours not a perfect system but if anyone can come with anything better that pleases all the people, all the time, I'm sure we'd like to hear from you!

If you all find out what that system is, please let me know. I'd like to apply it to my customers :lol: