New Jersey police officer pounds man on tape

[Bob Hubbard]

Let me put this out there. If you, or any other LEO on here thinks I'm not being fair, let me know. I tell me staff to let me know when I go to far on some topics, y'all let me know too. I want to be as fair as possible, to all sides. If you think a threads turning into a bash fest, report it. We have a few LEO's on staff, who can help us keep things in balance. :asian:

 

[Archangel M]

Will do Bob...actually some of these threads about use of force that "look" bad to the uninformed but seem reasonable to me can be an opportunity to explain how things could possibly be legitimate uses of force. Like the "kneeling on the neck" thread and the drunk getting arrested and punched. I feel like there is at least something to discuss.

In cases like this one though...I just dont know what to say.

 

[Carol]

Will do Bob...actually some of these threads that "look" bad to the uninformed but seem reasonable to me can be an opportunity to explain.

In cases like this one though...I just dont know what to say.

Consider the source, Arch.

This was a story that was published on the blog of a photog that decried an attempt in Massachusetts to criminalize erotic photographs of the mentally incompetent, and also decried a photographer in Illinois that would follow small children to the porta-john and insisted that one follow him to a secluded area so he could be photographed in suggestive stances. In court, the boy said he thought that he couldn't leave. Yes the original coverage was from a major media outlet, but the blogger clearly has an axe to grind against cops.

If I supported behaviour such as this, I probably wouldn't hesitate to show LEOs in a bad light also.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Regardless of the bias's of 1 source, when you get major outlet coverage, especially when it basically says the same thing, doesn't that somewhat negate the bias?

 

[Carol]

Somewhat. I won't deny that the story as presented doesn't look very good and if the LEOs in question are found to be out of line, then I hope they are punished.

 

[geezer]

Yeah, cop slamming me into a wall, real funny, him making fun of my picture, hilarious.

The joke about your picture stopped being funny the moment you put it into the context of your real life experience. There's nothing funny at all about being harassed, presumably because of your color and age. Omar, you and I may not get along... but I'm with you 100% on this.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Let me ask this.
If the guy called the cop a "dirty junk sucking pig", was that beating justified?
If the guy spit on the car, was that beating justified?
If the guy whipped out his winkie, and showered the car, was that beating justified?

Just pulling 3 things out of thin air here.

I'd like to know the official statement however before I pass judgment.

No. But what if he's lying? What if they asked him to open his sweatshirt so they could see any weapons, but instead he zipped it shut, while saying out loud, "I ain't gonna let you see my piece, and if you know what's good for you, you'll just keep on driving...otherwise, I'm going to shoot you ion the face and rape your dead body." At which point they instruct him to place his hands in the air, and he makes some other agitating comment, while leaving his hands in the vicinity of his waistband, a clear threat to the safety of the officers.

So he gets out to tackle the guy, but the guys reactions basically keep the cop at bay, in the guard, so the cop can't frisk him to disarm him. If he disengages long enough, he runs the risk of the other guy drawing the weapon he may have, and capping the cop. His other option would be to draw on and shoot the alleged perp, which would make his option of beating him into submission until backup arrives the more humane and merciful choice, considering.

Is that what happened? I doubt it. But that cop flew out of his patrol car and oin the guy fast; not typical of the situations that lead to abuse. He flew cuz he felt threatened by something, and wasn't getting the reaction from the suspect he felt was safe. Beat downs typically have more dialogue before contact.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Thanks for the different perspective. I hadn't thought of that.
:asian:

 

[Archangel M]

The latest:

PASSAIC, N.J. (WPIX) - A police officer in New Jersey, captured on surveillance tape viciously beating a mentally ill man, has been reassigned while an investigation into the incident is underway.

Passaic cop Joseph J. Rios III, a seven-year veteran of the force, has not been charged in the May 29 attack but instead has been assigned to desk duty.

Rios is seen on tape, outside of Lawrence's Bar and Grill at the corner of Summer Street and Main Ave, throwing 49-year-old Ronnie Holloway to the ground, striking him several times on the back and at one point even hitting Holloway in the ribs with his baton.

"The video of this incident is extremely disconcerting," said Mayor Alex Blanco in a statement issued late Saturday. "I urge the community to withhold judgment until a complete investigation of the incident is concluded and reviewed by independent law enforcement officials."

Holloway, who has filed an Internal Affairs report, claims he was taking his routine walk when he was suddenly approached by Rios and another officer in a police cruiser. Holloway said he was zipping up his sweatshirt, as requested by the female officer, when Rios launched the attack. Holloway said Rios jumped out of his cruiser and threw him against a car hood for no reason.

Holloway, who reportedly suffers from schizophrenia, was arrested after the incident and charged with resisting arrest, disorderly conduct and wandering with the intent to purchase drugs.

Just an odd thought...why would the female cop have told this guy to "zip up his sweater"? Seems like an odd request...

Unless perhaps they think that by zipping up the BG has a harder time accessing a weapon...

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

The latest:

Just an odd thought...why would the female cop have told this guy to "zip up his sweater"? Seems like an odd request...

Unless perhaps they think that by zipping up the BG has a harder time accessing a weapon...

I guess my whole thing is...we don't even know what we don't know. Standard Operating Procedures are constantly under revision, sometimes sensibly, sometimes because there's a fad-du-jour in policy and politics that mandates how officers ought to approach a possible suspect.

We don't know what she said to him, or what he said to her. Schizophrenia, by definition, is a propensity to respond to internal stimuli as if it's real, often ignoring external stimuli. My first thought upon reading this -- and having worked with schizophrenic clients -- was "how does he know it was her who told him to zip up his sweatshirt? Perhaps he was too busy listening to -- and responding to -- internal stimuli to hear and respond to thier instructions?" They did, after all, pull right up to him and start addressing him. He very likely was exhibiting erratic behavior, making passersby nervous and leading up to the call; happens everyday, all over the country with mental health clients. The lucky ones are known to the local patrol cops, or are visibly dissheveled in a way that hollers "psychiatric derangement" to the responding officers. The ones that look normal enough to pass for just being belligerent and combative druggies tend to get more jacked in the arrest proceedings.

So, he's responding to the voices in his head, instead of the policewomans. That would lead to the cops thinking they had a belligerent and possibly combative or dangerous party. He may even have been talking back to the voices in his head in an angry or violently threatening tone...which makes this even sadder, on multiple levels.

How would the cops know he was talking to his internal parties and not them? How much more does it suck for the poor guy to have gotten trounced, essentially just for having a psychiatric disease? How were the cops supposed to know he wasn't responding to them, because his dose needed adjusting? How misrable to be the cop, and find out after the fact that the guy you pounced on -- to keep him from assaulting your female partner, or potentially harming either or both of you, or a bystander -- was actually just dealing with an undermedicated hallucination?

Whole thing sucks, on multiple levels, regardless of what happened. But the reality remains...we don't have enough information to pass judgement. We have content, without context. And that context is vital for the proper attribution of meaning.

 

[MA-Caver]

No. But what if he's lying? What if they asked him to open his sweatshirt so they could see any weapons, but instead he zipped it shut, while saying out loud, "I ain't gonna let you see my piece, and if you know what's good for you, you'll just keep on driving...otherwise, I'm going to shoot you ion the face and rape your dead body." At which point they instruct him to place his hands in the air, and he makes some other agitating comment, while leaving his hands in the vicinity of his waistband, a clear threat to the safety of the officers.

So he gets out to tackle the guy, but the guys reactions basically keep the cop at bay, in the guard, so the cop can't frisk him to disarm him. If he disengages long enough, he runs the risk of the other guy drawing the weapon he may have, and capping the cop. His other option would be to draw on and shoot the alleged perp, which would make his option of beating him into submission until backup arrives the more humane and merciful choice, considering.

Is that what happened? I doubt it. But that cop flew out of his patrol car and oin the guy fast; not typical of the situations that lead to abuse. He flew cuz he felt threatened by something, and wasn't getting the reaction from the suspect he felt was safe. Beat downs typically have more dialogue before contact.

Thanks for the different perspective. I hadn't thought of that.
:asian:

It is one of the things that seemingly easy to forget when watching these videos, that police work is still DANGEROUS work for those behind the badge. Far too many can relate stories of their own of life threatening encounters.
Something happened that we don't know prior to the arrival of the police vehicle. The man might've caused trouble in the establishment (a bar?) on the corner and the owner/operator/employee called the police who arrived in time to see the "suspect" outside (matching description) and the suspect failed to comply with requests/demands given by the officer. There is also a jump in the (original) video where we see the officers in the car and suddenly outside the car and the "take-down" initiated... not the officers getting OUT of the vehicle and approaching the "suspect".
<edit> seeing other video shows the officers getting out of the car... still don't know what was said between them.

I guess my whole thing is...we don't even know what we don't know. Standard Operating Procedures are constantly under revision, sometimes sensibly, sometimes because there's a fad-du-jour in policy and politics that mandates how officers ought to approach a possible suspect.

We don't know what she said to him, or what he said to her. Schizophrenia, by definition, is a propensity to respond to internal stimuli as if it's real, often ignoring external stimuli. My first thought upon reading this -- and having worked with schizophrenic clients -- was "how does he know it was her who told him to zip up his sweatshirt? Perhaps he was too busy listening to -- and responding to -- internal stimuli to hear and respond to thier instructions?" They did, after all, pull right up to him and start addressing him. He very likely was exhibiting erratic behavior, making passersby nervous and leading up to the call; happens everyday, all over the country with mental health clients. The lucky ones are known to the local patrol cops, or are visibly disheveled in a way that hollers "psychiatric derangement" to the responding officers. The ones that look normal enough to pass for just being belligerent and combative druggies tend to get more jacked in the arrest proceedings.

So, he's responding to the voices in his head, instead of the police woman's. That would lead to the cops thinking they had a belligerent and possibly combative or dangerous party. He may even have been talking back to the voices in his head in an angry or violently threatening tone...which makes this even sadder, on multiple levels.

How would the cops know he was talking to his internal parties and not them? How much more does it suck for the poor guy to have gotten trounced, essentially just for having a psychiatric disease? How were the cops supposed to know he wasn't responding to them, because his dose needed adjusting? How miserable to be the cop, and find out after the fact that the guy you pounced on -- to keep him from assaulting your female partner, or potentially harming either or both of you, or a bystander -- was actually just dealing with an under medicated hallucination?

Whole thing sucks, on multiple levels, regardless of what happened. But the reality remains...we don't have enough information to pass judgment. We have content, without context. And that context is vital for the proper attribution of meaning.

Be that as it may, the officers didn't know any of that and were responding to a call, probably from the establishment. The call could've been that Holloway was being belligerent or troublesome in the establishment which might've been from complications arising from his schizophrenic episode.

I'm not trying to defend the cops either because I too agree that it was excessive, a take down doesn't necessarily require a beating for compliance. As I understand it officers are (supposed to be) trained to take a person down and within reason immobilize them until they can be handled without threat to the officer or to themselves. Whomping on the guy with their baton while he's down is excessive.

 

[Twin Fist]

Regardless of the bias's of 1 source, when you get major outlet coverage, especially when it basically says the same thing, doesn't that somewhat negate the bias?

it could also show that they are all biased

 

[MJS]

While I am not advocating what took place in this clip, I think one of the major problems with things like this, is that the majority of the time, we are seeing part of a situation or a one sided view. In other words, how many times have we seen things in which the first thing we see is the supposed victim getting slammed agains the wall? Right away, certain people assume that the cop is the bad guy, yet what we're not seeing is what the BG did prior to getting slammed. Again, not saying its always justified, but perhaps we missed the part where the BG took a swing at the cop, spit at him, whatever.

We often see reports from groups that tend to be anti cop, so that brings us to the 1 sided views. Those groups dont wanna hear anything except bad cop and poor suspect, regardless of what the suspect did.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

It's New Jersey.

 

[The Last Legionary]

Yeah, cop slamming me into a wall, real funny, him making fun of my picture, hilarious.

I don't know. You do have that "I'm sorry, I can't hear you over how awesome I am" look to you.

 

[Omar B]

One would expect the topic to be not about my picture in this thread, it was an unprovoked personal attack and I thought a grown up would have a bit more class than trashing someone's pic, especially in a pretty serious thread.

Oh and it was a birthday party, not that I need to explain that.

 

[Big Don]

The "some of my best friends are __________" crap turned my stomach a little, and, not too long ago, you were perfectly happy to joke about the "punch me smirk" in the picture.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

So--how 'bout that crazy New Jersey?

 

[Carol]

Both officers have been suspended.

http://www.philly.com/philly/wires/...p_njcopvideotapedbeatingsuspectsuspended.html

 

[jks9199]

Ladies and gentlemen,

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jks9199
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