Cerio Pinions/Pinans

[BallistikMike]

Wow. I just asked a simple question of the Heian/Pinan Okinawan katas and how Nicke Cerio brought them into the Karazenpo system.

I did receive my answer also. Thank you very much. I didnt realize (through my own ignorance) that the two Mas Oyama books I have are the "Essentials" of Karate. Not "Mastering" Karate and that is where I was confused. So I found my answer and it has also given me the opporunity to track down another book. Hooray!!

Now onward and upward.

Mr. Williams

Like has been stated before and I will restate. Your ignorance is very profound and I have pity for you lack of vision and thought.

A ryu/style/system, a school/dojo/dojang/studio is never a building, never a picture on the wall that you worship or bow too, never walls or floors, never memberships, never katana on a wall, never a shrine .... it is people.

People make the ryu/system/style. The blood, sweat and tears, the comradeship, the trust, the accountability amongst your peers. That is what makes a ryu/style/system. It is also the people that make the tradition. It is the people who handed down the traditional kata of okinanwa to other people. It is people who formalized it into a ryu, a way of practice. You have such comtempt for Nick Cerio brining in a traditional karate kata when you should be proud that he had the vision to see the benefit of it for his system/style. How he wanted to teach and how he wanted his students to learn.

You completely show your ignorance. I am man enough to admit my ignorance and my mistake for not reading a simple title to a book. I learned from it though like I always do from this forum. I hope that you will learn from this also and if not ... well your loss.

By the way, some of the most intense training throughout history has been amongst fellow peers away from the school in garages, back alleys, farms, woodlands, basements, etc... It was needed for freedom of expression, then again you new that with 30 plus years of training didnt you? Wonder how you missed that and looked down amongst those who seek growth, not copying (Tradition). Unless you never did it.

Close the thread. My answer was reached. Sorry for the attack, but then I am a knuckle dragger and claim nothing more.

 

[Gene Williams]

Besides my being ignorant, what was your point?

 

[John Bishop]

What I was being critical of was people in modern arts who try to re-invent themselves as "traditional" or who mess with traditional kata to try and create something "better" even though they have no ties with traditional ryu.

Everybody in modern martial arts has some ties to a so-called "traditional" ryu. "There is nothing new under the sun", only ideas and concepts on how to utilize the techniques.
And I do agree with you, that if you are going to incorporate a form from another system, that it should be taught as is, and not modified.

But again I ask; where's the line drawn between traditional and non- traditional martial arts?
The Okinawans borrow from the Chinese, but yet there are traditional Okinawan arts?
The Japanese borrow from the Okinawans, and thus there are traditional Japanese martial arts?
Asian martial arts has been in America since the 1840's, but when Americans borrow from the Asians, their arts are no longer traditional?
America as a independant country is 229 years old. That's not old enough to have some traditions?

No, there is a big difference between what Shotokan and Kyok do and the Okinawan ryu. Most traditionalists understand the differences and can spot them immediately. Yamaguchi's Goju is not Okinawan Goju, as Okinawan Goju students will quickly tell you. You have a fairly shallow understanding of the Okinawan ryu, but I'm sure that is by choice.
You and many others on this forum come from newer styles that have a vested interest in playing up the, "oh, its all the same" philosphy and the,"all arts are eclectic" mentality because that allows you to experiment and play and be "creative." That is all well and good, but those who have spent a lot of years in the traditional ryu and studied them realize that they are not all the same and they are not all eclectic in the manner that you intend.

What kind of condescending statement is that. Other then your writings here, I have no clue who you are, so I wouldn't dare insult your knowledge of Okinawan martial arts. It's just common curtesy. Something I thought the so called "traditional" arts prided themselves on.
And for the same part you have very little knowledge of my background other then what may be on the internet. So yes, I'll confess that my knowledge of Okinawan arts may be shallower then some, but probably deeper then others.
And presently, I come from one of the "newer" styles (although Kajukenbo, founded in 1947, proceeds many of the so called traditional Asian arts).
But I'am also a half Japanese 3rd generation black belt, starting with my grandfather Shozo Miyazaki, my father Jack Bishop, a Kodokan trained black belt, and then myself. Since 1958 (yes 5 years old) I've trained in Judo, freestyle wrestling, Aikido, Shotokan, and Kajukenbo.
And yes, none of those arts are Okinawan, even though Shotokan was founded by a Okinawan, who was trained by other Okinawans.

Fact is this could be have been good discussion if you would have shown a little curtesy when trying to prove your points. Or is your curtesy only extended to traditional Okinawan practitioners? If so, we have other forums here for discussions of the Okinawan arts.

 

[BallistikMike]

Besides my being ignorant, what was your point?

Your kidding right? 30+ years of training in a "Traditional" Martial Art and you cant decipher a single point out of the crap I wrote down? It was written by the simple minded, mind you.

Ok here... I will put it in a form you "can" decipher. Look at it like a simple Kata. A basic Kata. Lets take Taikyoku Shodan as an example.

The essential basics of the kata - Movement with the zenku-dachi stance.

The essential basics of the post - Thankyou to those who contibuted to my original question and lead me in the right direction. I found my answer.

The hidden bunkai of the kata - A low bladder strike from someone grabbing your left shoulder. Possible yep. The only one, far from it. Not apparent to new karate-ka. Yep. So hidden. You of course would know this.

The hidden bunkai of the post - Considering you understand sarcasim and can read, which is apparent otherwise I would've never had the pleasure of your posts. It is easily understood by what you have written that you are still in the copying phase of your instruction. You hold the absolute truth of what you are being taught is pure and undeniably correct without question. The infant stage of Mommy and Daddy are always right is a great example of where you are at in your training based off of your written word.

Your hidden bunkai those thruths only you know through countless hours of practice and testing - That which works for you based on experience, your truths and limitations, your understanding of how you make them effective, using the priniciples your intructor gave you to dissect, paste, cut, adapt to any situation, you know individualistic expression based off of the known bunkai that were once hidden.

Your hidden bunkai based off of my post - Well only you will know those truths.

Im sorry if you couldn't see anything remotely visiable as a "point". I hope I helped you ou.

Good luck to you and your training. Be safe.

 

[Gene Williams]

In your fist line, when you reference the "crap" you wrote down, you achieved satori.

 

[BallistikMike]

In your fist line, when you reference the "crap" you wrote down, you achieved satori.

Agree.

So we can move on.

 

[The Kai]

Mr Williams


What is "Hard Traditional training?"
How is that different from the rigerous conditioniong that the KaJuKenBo people use?

 

[BlackCatBonz]

its way different.....its hard and traditional

 

[Michael Billings]

Please keep the discussion polite and respectful of others. Further personal insults may result in a suspension of the offending party. Feel free to use the "Ignore" feature and you will not see the other person's posts.

Specific rule violations include the first two on our GENERAL RULES page.

-Michael Billings
-MT Asst. Administrator-

 

[Gene Williams]

If you will notice, Todd, I did not use the term "hard traditional training." I wrote that there was a lack of traditional training methods. Based upon what I have seen of EPAK and Kajukenbo, I believe that is an accurate statement. I did not imply that the other groups do not train hard, only differently. You really should read more carefully. Maybe this discussion should be put to rest. If you are really curious, my dojo is not far from Atlanta, and I train and do training seminars in Orlando, Fla. several times a year. Email me and I'll meet you or give you directions to my dojo. Then you can strut your stuff and see if I am as big a sonofabitch as you think I am.

 

[KenpoTess]

Admin Note

Thread locked Pending Review

~Tess
-MT Assistant Admin

 

[KenpoTess]

Thread reopened

 

[Thunderbolt]

this thread is reopened AFTER Gene Williams's account is suspended.?

i didn't know that when you have a strong *disagreement* or *differences*, your account will be suspended or blocked.?

I'm not suprised to see why not many people want to *participate* in a friendly discussion and left this forum EXCEPT those individuals who *share* the same point of views.

If it's a coward act for somebody who insult other behind their keyboard, it is even more coward for some people to click *suspend* or *block* button WHEN another person has differences.

After all, if everything is great according to people, there is nothing left for us to discuss any more, is there.?

Perhaps, you should try to *privatize* what people can *discuss* around here so that we don't have to use that "suspend" or "block" button.

When you don't lead, you simply follow like a blind person. Even if you lead, you lead us to the bottom anyway. What's a different.!

Yes, it's a sad day for MA world. Have a nice day.!

 

[shesulsa]

this thread is reopened AFTER Gene Williams's account is suspended.?

i didn't know that when you have a strong *disagreement* or *differences*, your account will be suspended or blocked.?

I'm not suprised to see why not many people want to *participate* in a friendly discussion and left this forum EXCEPT those individuals who *share* the same point of views.

If it's a coward act for somebody who insult other behind their keyboard, it is even more coward for some people to click *suspend* or *block* button WHEN another person has differences.

After all, if everything is great according to people, there is nothing left for us to discuss any more, is there.?

Perhaps, you should try to *privatize* what people can *discuss* around here so that we don't have to use that "suspend" or "block" button.

When you don't lead, you simply follow like a blind person. Even if you lead, you lead us to the bottom anyway. What's a different.!

Yes, it's a sad day for MA world. Have a nice day.!

Now that I'm no longer on staff, I'm just gonna say this right here, right now and take any heat I get for it willingly.

Don't like the rules? F'in' leave.

This is a privately owned board and your ability to be here is a priveledge - not a right. This board is for friendly discussion, not open insults, slamming, sniping, ratting out, fraudbusting or any other such horse ****. If you want that, go to a trash-talking site, there's plenty of them.

 

[Kenpodoc]

No one has ever called me a troll, and I don't think it applies. I just have a pet peeve about the non-traditional arts trying to re-invent themselves as traditional. Plus, I have spent a lot of years training in, teaching, and studying the traditional kata, so I think I am qualified to talk about them.
You do have a point about the non-kata based arts. In some ways, we are talking about apples and oranges. I really don't think there is much in common between the two approaches.
I have met a number of EPAK people, and have had a number of them come and train in my dojo. I am sorry to say I have never been impressed, either by their made up Parker kata or by their technique. They have great marketing technique, and they take pretty pictures. Hollywood has been good to them. I realize that this forum is a whole nest of them, so it is probably not the best place for me to discuss traditional karate. But, I've just never seen anything about Parker or American kempo that compares favorably with any well taught traditional karate ryu. Sorry. be good.

I would say that all arts are reinvented by each generation. The differences may be subtle but they are always present. Mr. Bishop demonstrated that well.

There are good and bad in Parker lineage Kenpo but for me everything I've been taught compared favorably to the tradititional (relatively) shotokan I was originally taught. To each their own but I feel compelled to support Mr. Parker and his art.

Jeff

 

[The Kai]

Having started in a traditional art, I never looked back after my first kenpo experience!!


BTW Nobody ever claims a long, traditional past of thier Kenpo katas-most freely admit that they are a product of american ingenuity, open exploration, and street experience.
I think Mr Bishop and Kenpo Doc have a valid point. Most traditional kata, while they temselves might not have been changed the bunkai has undergone a re-invention

 

[Sapper6]

this thread is reopened AFTER Gene Williams's account is suspended.?

i didn't know that when you have a strong *disagreement* or *differences*, your account will be suspended or blocked.?

I'm not suprised to see why not many people want to *participate* in a friendly discussion and left this forum EXCEPT those individuals who *share* the same point of views.

If it's a coward act for somebody who insult other behind their keyboard, it is even more coward for some people to click *suspend* or *block* button WHEN another person has differences.

After all, if everything is great according to people, there is nothing left for us to discuss any more, is there.?

Perhaps, you should try to *privatize* what people can *discuss* around here so that we don't have to use that "suspend" or "block" button.

When you don't lead, you simply follow like a blind person. Even if you lead, you lead us to the bottom anyway. What's a different.!

Yes, it's a sad day for MA world. Have a nice day.!

oh yes, a giant conspiracy against those who don't follow the rules. disagreements on the boards happen quite frequently, but they should never result in open challenges and badgering others because their system isn't traditional in the manner they'd prefer.

 

[Ray]

Perhaps, you should try to *privatize* [...] around here ...

I'm certain that this is owned by someone (or some ones). I think they're being pretty nice to let us express our views - - and I think it's only reasonable that they make some rules of what's acceptable and what's not.

The constitution may give us the right of free speech, but that doesn't mean a privately owned outlet has to carry our views.

 

[MJS]

I'm going to say 2 things:

1: The forum is for friendly discussion, not heated flame wars. Here is a link to the rules of the forum. If there are any questions, contact an admin or post them in the support forum.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=141&

2: The discussion is not about who/why anyone was suspended. Please, lets return to the topic of the thread which is on the discussion of forms.

Mike

 

[pete]

i just dinged ya for the 'don't like it lump it, take it down the road and dump it' 'tude. i may not agree with what a guy says, but will defend his right to say it. dont need to beat this deadhorse, just had to 'sign' my rep comment. pete.