Cerio Pinions/Pinans

[shesulsa]

i just dinged ya for the 'don't like it lump it, take it down the road and dump it' 'tude. i may not agree with what a guy says, but will defend his right to say it. dont need to beat this deadhorse, just had to 'sign' my rep comment. pete.

Thanks, Pete. I took a few minutes to reflect on your comment and came to the conclusion that I love America and the fact that we are all entitled to our own opinions no matter what and I work hard at the American spirit of tolerance for other people's preferences, productive life choices, etcetera.

And were this a public-owned forum (which it is not) and a democratic entity (which it is not) I would defend anyone's right to free speech. But, see, there is the provision of privatization which means that if you own something and call it yours (which MT's owner does), you get to call the shots as to what is and is not allowed (which MT's owner does), providing the rules are within the reach of the law and do not break the law (which they do not).

The guidelines for discussion outlined at the "Rules" link are pretty clear and, I think, pretty reasonable.

So.

Like the rules ... or lump 'em. Or you can always complain about them to the staff and rally for change in an appropriate fashion.

And that's the last off-topic post I'll put here. :boing1:

 

[KENPOJOE]

Hi Folks,
I only have one comment about this situation and then I'll go on to the topic at hand.
I've dealt with over 20 message boards in my 11 year tenure on the net and only was "banned" from one for truthful statements that were corrections to a particular board and I was "banned" for speaking the truth, not for flaming the board,not for "trolling" to do nothing more than argue to upset members rather than give insight, We can all give our opinions in a courteous,respectful manner.
Back to the topic at hand...
I've known Prof. Nick Cerio for approximately 15 years. I first met him at my first "open" Karate" tournament in the New England area. At that time, He was one of the main referees for KRANE and he was often the chief ref for many of the Black Belt divisions,whether it be for forms,weapons or sparring. Over, the years, I would see many of his Black Belts compete or judge at events. People such as Gene Couto,George Basmajian, Mike Burton, Bill Gregory, Rocky Dirico,Don Rodrigues as well as Nancy Lee Ambrosia Cerio, who was married to Prof. Cerio and was there for much of the creation of what was to become "Nick Cerio's Kenpo". So, i've had the personal pleasure of seeing the changes in kata, the addition of more japanese kata, and the creation of the "circle" forms as well as the "waza" kata through different individuals. I did not train with Prof. Cerio and that was my choice due to different reasons. But, his art was not Ed Parker's American Kenpo and those two given arts were distinctly different. So when people mention EPAK and think that Prof. Cerio taught that art, they are mistaken.
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE

 

[eyebeams]

Well, I *don't* study Parker-lineage kenpo but comparing it to what I do study, the interesting thing is that EPAK's Japanese roots and acquired Chinese influences do, in many ways, "average out" to softer Okinawan methods I'm familiar with.

Really, the whole thing is a crapshoot, but I feel that good forms are only semi-systematized. That means that they are not completely bound to the core principles of the system but still encompass them.

I also believe that there does need to be a set of robust bunkai that work in dynamic situations and are "canonical" to an art; that is, we avoid the pitfalls of overly-loose applications that break the set down into meaninglessness.

Finally, I think that if kata encompass the whole system, it's a bit of a shame. The easiest place for a martial artist to express him or herself as an individual is through recombining fundamentals in new ways and expanding horizons without the explicit guidance of a set.

 

[tshadowchaser]

But, his art was not Ed Parker's American Kenpo and those two given arts were distinctly different. So when people mention EPAK and think that Prof. Cerio taught that art, they are mistaken.

How verry true.
I knew Mr. Cerio back in the 70's and knew many of the people mentioned by Kepojoe. I refereed with Mr. Cerio and his wife many times. I had the pleasure of talking with him more than once in those days and truthfuly never realised that his forms where not Parkers till I got a chance to study Parkers system. The two where different.
As to why some forms where changed I can not say but I do know that the application of movement and the thought behind the "why" of doing them was always at the formost in his mind.

 

[marlon]

So, what are the differences btwn 'traditional' forms/kata and the Kajukenbo/Kenpo/kempo based forms we have today. Aside from the obvious difference, why do some stay so focused on the Okinawan based forms, and turn to them to deepen their understanding and skill even if they are more American based systems? what do they see in them?

Respectfully,
Marlon

 

[Thunderbolt]

Now that I'm no longer on staff, I'm just gonna say this right here, right now and take any heat I get for it willingly.

Don't like the rules? F'in' leave.

This is a privately owned board and your ability to be here is a priveledge - not a right. This board is for friendly discussion, not open insults, slamming, sniping, ratting out, fraudbusting or any other such horse ****. If you want that, go to a trash-talking site, there's plenty of them.

if you don't like what other write specifically about your *art*, don't READ. It's that simple. You can't take it like a man and CAN'T defend your *tradition* or *none-tradition* art AFTER reading people's comments.?

I have seen people like you using big words such as not open insults, slamming, sniping, ratting out, fraudbusting or any other such horse ****. BUT when it comes to *prove* or *show* it to everybody, there is no proof. The same can be said to your *intellectual*.

I assume that this is still an OPEN PUBLIC forum which we can have a friendly discussion about *art*.

Oh yeah, i'm fully aware that this is a *privately owned* board. You don't need to remind me about this because all i can see is AK schools' ads pop up everywhere. It's definitely private right here. I'm sure there is some kajukenbo school's ads as well. It's good for business.!

Because you people PAY to support this board, you can do anything you want. Your *supporting member* status sure proves my case.

i'm also aware of *rules* which are specifically created to *fit* the need of CERTAIN individuals who *share* the same point of views in this forum.

Before I replied to your post, I received a *administrative warning* PM about what i wrote earlier.

I'm waiting to see what i will get AFTER posting this message. I'm not here to insult anybody. If you can't handle what I write here, don't read.

 

[Bester]

:2xBird2:

if you don't like what other write specifically about your *art*, don't READ. It's that simple. You can't take it like a man and CAN'T defend your *tradition* or *none-tradition* art AFTER reading people's comments.?

Last I checked, Shesulsa's female, but then again with the intellect you've so far demonstrated I wouldn't expect you to notice that. Your comment "take it like a man" demonstrates your sexist nature. Maybe you should "take it like a woman". So go give birth or bend over, your choice.

I have seen people like you using big words such as not open insults, slamming, sniping, ratting out, fraudbusting or any other such horse ****. BUT when it comes to *prove* or *show* it to everybody, there is no proof. The same can be said to your *intellectual*.

This is a writen medium. Anyone thinking they can "prove" anything is a moron.

I assume that this is still an OPEN PUBLIC forum which we can have a friendly discussion about *art*.

Yes it is. Now, care to do that, or are you going to continue to whine like a brat kid who isn't being treated like a god?

Oh yeah, i'm fully aware that this is a *privately owned* board. You don't need to remind me about this because all i can see is AK schools' ads pop up everywhere. It's definitely private right here. I'm sure there is some kajukenbo school's ads as well. It's good for business.!

Hmm...There are 8 forums sponsored by Kenpo organizations/schools, out of 33 sponsorships. There are no popups, unless you're some moron who is too stupid to run proper anti-virus and spyware protection on your PC. As to the "Good for business part", yup. The owner of this site is just sipping Dom and being fed grapes by his bevy of bathing beauties.

Because you people PAY to support this board, you can do anything you want. Your *supporting member* status sure proves my case.

Damn it, I got jipped. I've been suspended what, 5-6? times since I sent in my first check. I didn't know I could do anything I wanted. Well, lets see, since I can do anything, then I guess telling you what an inbred, closeminded, fart sniffing, pigeon brained, small peckered ******* you are won't get me so much as a "Bad Bester, No Cookies for you."

i'm also aware of *rules* which are specifically created to *fit* the need of CERTAIN individuals who *share* the same point of views in this forum.

Really, like who? Which rules?
Oh, you mean the ones that try to maintain civil and polite conversation?
A skill (along with manners, courtesy, and being able to behave like a civilized person) that appears to be so beyond so many so-called martial artists?

Before I replied to your post, I received a *administrative warning* PM about what i wrote earlier.

Probably because you're a pompous little ignoramus, but I could be correct.

I'm waiting to see what i will get AFTER posting this message. I'm not here to insult anybody. If you can't handle what I write here, don't read.

Hopefully booted to the groin. If you can't follow this boards rules, maybe you should go hang out someplace where they get all excited over being a moron, like bullshido.

 

[Sapper6]

could someone show this clown the door please?

 

[RevIV]

I think everyone needs to take a breath, sit back and look at whats being written here. then you need to go to the thread "adapting Kenpo for disabilities" section. read all those, and then see how you Martial Artists feel about how you are acting. I have very limited responses on any forum in fear of a flame war. I will use all will power not to become part of that section of the internet. But please. Check that thread and see what things are really supposed to be like on this forum as well as in the martial arts. Before you go, i have written more in that section than any other because i felt that i was actually helping the person asking the question, nothing more.

In Peace
Jesse D.

 

[shesulsa]

Damn it, I got jipped. I've been suspended what, 5-6? times since I sent in my first check. I didn't know I could do anything I wanted. Well, lets see, since I can do anything, then I guess telling you what an inbred, closeminded, fart sniffing, pigeon brained, small peckered ******* you are won't get me so much as a "Bad Bester, No Cookies for you."

:xtrmshock Bad Bester! No cookies for you! :lol2:

 

[Sapper6]

later thunderbolt,

don't the door hit you in da ***

:asian:

 

[Bester]

the last time i checked, Shesulsa is not my biittch. She might be yours. I would not care if you put yours Grand UberSoke, Sith-jutsu Ryu Emperor's Hand, 3rd Level ASSsss into hers.

Bester, here is my best :2xBird2:

Truely you have a dizzying intellect.

 

[Thunderbolt]

Truely you have a dizzying intellect.

you say it like if it's a bad thing. I heard it WORSE but you know what.? I can take it from an uneducated person like you as a compliment because that is the NICEST thing you ever say to people anyway.

Thanks but i sure hope somebody show you the BETTER way of saying thing.

Sapper6

Don't worry about the door hitting me though. Thank you for the warning.

here is my best to both of you. :2xBird2:

if you haven't paid to learn anything here, at least you PAID to get *your own CUSTOMIZED* BS title.

save it for your RETIREMENT. You definitely need it.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Ladies and Gentlemen, and other lifeforms.
Take the pissing matches, the attitudes, etc off this board.

If you cannot follow our posted rules, please save both us and yourself time and don't post.

Please get back on the original topic (which was rather interesting IMO), and take up any concerns with the rules/moderation/etc in the Support Forum.

Thank you.

 

[DavidCC]

I used teh search function and dug us some posts by prof. Joe Shuras, who is a 7th dan in Karazenpo and was close to the action when this was all happening:


Especailly see post #22
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=308016&postcount=22

here is the entire thread
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19154


Pinan/Pinion #1
Taikyoku #1

Pinan/Pinion #2
Parts of Taikyoku #2 & #3, Kung Line Drills & Basics from the instruction Nick Cerio received while in Hawaii.

Pinan/Pinion #3
The Pinan kata #3 in Mas Oyamas book "Karate" learned by Nick Cerio and put into the system.

Pinan/Pinion #4
The Pinan kata #4 in Mas Oyamas book "Karate" learned by Nick Cerio and put into the system.

Pinan/Pinion #5
The Pinan kata #5 in Mas Oyamas book "Karate" learned by Nick Cerio and put into the system.

Side note - as a reference the Okinawan Karate Pinan series 1 - 5 as well as the Shotokan Heian series 1 - 5 kata can be referenced. Note - Shotokan Karate switched Pinan #1 to Heian #2 and Pinan #2 to Heian #1.

 

[BallistikMike]

I used teh search function and dug us some posts by prof. Joe Shuras, who is a 7th dan in Karazenpo and was close to the action when this was all happening:


Especailly see post #22
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=308016&postcount=22

here is the entire thread
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19154


Pinan/Pinion #1
Taikyoku #1

Pinan/Pinion #2
Parts of Taikyoku #2 & #3, Kung Line Drills & Basics from the instruction Nick Cerio received while in Hawaii.

Pinan/Pinion #3
The Pinan kata #3 in Mas Oyamas book "Karate" learned by Nick Cerio and put into the system.

Pinan/Pinion #4
The Pinan kata #4 in Mas Oyamas book "Karate" learned by Nick Cerio and put into the system.

Pinan/Pinion #5
The Pinan kata #5 in Mas Oyamas book "Karate" learned by Nick Cerio and put into the system.

Side note - as a reference the Okinawan Karate Pinan series 1 - 5 as well as the Shotokan Heian series 1 - 5 kata can be referenced. Note - Shotokan Karate switched Pinan #1 to Heian #2 and Pinan #2 to Heian #1.

This is the confusion I had and why. I thought Pinin 3, 4 & 5 were the exact same as Pinan/Heian 3, 4 & 5 and could not for the life of me find Pinan/Hein 3 in the TWO Mas Oyama books I have. I have since learned that the 2 books I have are the exact same book "essentials" of Karate and Karates Basic Course - renamed from the previous book.

Those books have Taikyoku 1 & 3, Heina 4 & 5 and Saiha Kata in them. That was my confusion.

It was never a challenge or an openeing to become one about the changing of Kata from "Traditional" Japanes/Okinawan MA's to the Kempo arts.

Thanks

 

[Harley Quinn]

This is such a good thread, I am glad it did not get closed. Thanks to all for the information. Of course if it was not for the desenters and others all this information would not have been presented.

I did notice that the ones who desented, esculated the more they were told to cease. It was like adding gas to a flame. Funny but you could tell they were determined (like a moth to a flame) almost compelled. Strange.

Thanks also to John Bishop for allowing us a look into his background.
All in all a good time reading the whole thing. This thread and the one given for information (karazenpo) seem to have a pretty high decease (to go away)
factor.

Harley

 

[Flying Crane]

I did notice that the ones who desented, esculated the more they were told to cease. It was like adding gas to a flame. Funny but you could tell they were determined (like a moth to a flame) almost compelled. Strange.

Harley

yeah, it's not like anyone was twisting their arm to take part in the thread...i just don't get it.

 

[MJS]

The problem posters have been dealt with. That is over and done with as far as I'm concerned.

We have a very good thread going here with some good information. I hope that it can continue and that people will keep contributing to it in a positive fashion. :ultracool

Mike

 

[Jonathan Randall]

The "traditional" argument comes up all the time when people are trying to dis American martial arts.

Here are the founding dates of some popular martial arts:

Japan
Shotokan 1921
Shito Ryu 1930
Wado Ryu 1939
Aikido 1942
Shorinji Kempo 1946
Shukokai 1950
Kyokushinkai 1951
Koei-kan 1952
Renbukai 1964

OKINAWA
Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu 1947
Isshin Ryu 1954

Korea
Chung do kwon 1945
Tang Soo Do 1945
Chang moo kwon 1946
Tae Kwon Do 1955
Hapkido 1950's-60's
Hwarang do 1960
Kuk Sul Won 1966

America (and it's territories)
Danzan Ryu 1930's
Kara-ho Kempo 1940's
Kajukenbo 1947
American Kenpo 1950-60's
Karazenpo Go Shin jitsu 1958
Lima Lama 1968
Shaolin Kempo 1971

Martial arts have always evolved. And more systems are being developed in these countries all the time.
So the big question is; how old does a system have to be? And where does it have to come from before it's considered "traditional"?

Thank you, sir.

I personally am glad that Nick Cerio put the forms that he did into his system. There's a lot of good information buried within this thread - for those willing to get past the flames. Imitation and adaptation are in the history of all martial arts - that is what makes them so rich.