Pinans and SKK

[LawDog]

The ending of #1 kata has always had a number of ranging issues.
The rising thrust kick that was/is used is range specific. The closer an opponet moved in towards you the less height you could obtain and still keep it within the power curve of the kick. Where the high chambered thrust kick is not as sensitive to range. Here are a few of the different variations and solutions from the 70's & 80's.
1-From the cover position the hand was thrown out to assist with generating hip power for the kick. Back then this was a common practice when executing a thrust kick,
2-The cover position was done because you grabbed a striking arm and pulled it in.This would bend your opponent over. Then a combination backfist and thrust kick was done,
3-From the cover position a back fist was thrown out with the thrust kick going to the knee,
4-Because the leg is longer it hit the target,(ribs), further out forcing the torso to bend forward and thus being hit by the back fist,
5-From the cover position the arm executed a block with the rising thrust kick,
6-In the early 80's, from the cover position a back fist was thrown while the kicking leg went into a high chamber position then a thrust kick was released.

 

[CTKempo Todd]

Excellent discussion about the ending of 1 Kata..

This is exactly what I wanted when I posted the questions.

Jesse,
Yup agree with you and hope to see your ending in person of course. Since seeing the bunkai of Prof Kimo's Pinan's cup and saucers, it really has opened up my eyes to all the SKK forms where the Cup and saucer exists.

Tournaments really have skewed things when it comes to Katas. Here's an idea.
Why not have a category where the Kata's are performed on people? (Sort of like the Self Defense catagory but in grander scale?) Now you can REALLY see what the kata's are and that the practitioner really understands the kata. you'd have a much less 'pretty' kata but a much more practical one.

I'd like to see the same in weapons catagory as well. (I'd be screwed here ;-)

 

[John Bishop]

Just out of curiosity, what's a "cup and saucer"?

 

[fnorfurfoot]

Just out of curiosity, what's a "cup and saucer"?

When one hand is at elbow position and the other hand crosses over your body and rests on top of it.

 

[John Bishop]

When one hand is at elbow position and the other hand crosses over your body and rests on top of it.

OK, thanks. In Kajukenbo we call that a "side to side cover". Pretty common transitional move in our Palama Sets.

 

[LawDog]

We call that position a side cover position. Our hand placement is closed fist, palm to palm.

 

[CTKempo Todd]

We call that position a side cover position. Our hand placement is closed fist, palm to palm.

Yup..Same thing.
I wonder if "Cup and Saucer" as I was taught it was called was terminology invented to help a kid (or adult) remember what it looked like and of course the idea was propogated forward by the next generation. (myself included).

 

[kidswarrior]

We have incorporated the animals into the pinans as well.

We are also asked on occasion to do the form as a different animal.

Great idea. I'm going to use this, too.

 

[LawDog]

I originally had the same question as Mr Bishop did. Cup and Saucer is a new term for me. I will have to ask around the Kenpo community to see if anyone knows the answer.

 

[CTKempo Todd]

I originally had the same question as Mr Bishop did. Cup and Saucer is a new term for me. I will have to ask around the Kenpo community to see if anyone knows the answer.

Cool. I hope you are successful.
The more I think about it...Cup and Saucer is a very visual thing and people can 'see' what a cup and saucer look like in their mind. Good luck and can't wait to hear what you find out. (I want a prize if I am right though LOL (..and not a 'cup and saucer' ;-) )

 

[fnorfurfoot]

As far as I know the term was made up to give students a visual of what they are doing with their hands. We use a lot of "in house" terms for moves and techniques. One that everyone thinks is funny is when we control a partner's head with a finger under the nose. We call that a "tweety." A fellow student came up with that years ago and it stuck with me so I've used it ever since. (In case you're wondering, the nose is the "tweety" bird sitting on the perch, your finger)

 

[RevIV]

cup and saucer as i have been taught = 1 fist is in chameber the other fist comes across the body in a hammer position resting on top of other hand.

Fist over fist was similiar one hand in chamber closed fist other hand on top closed fist. ( palms would be facing eachother)

so i even wrote the wrong application - in GM Pesare's ending of 1 kata he draws in after the back punch with a fist over fist.
Jesse

 

[SK101]

Speaking of 1 Kata...

Interested in hearing how you all end the form.

Do you:
a) backfist with a medium to high side kick
b) Backfist with a low side blade kick
c) Perform a (number 1 or 2 in 8pt blocking speak) Block to the side and side kick (does not matter the height in this instance)

I was originally taught 'a' however it can't physically be done unless your arms are as long as your legs..I teach method 'c' because to me it feels the most practical.

I remember a conversation that it was taught as method 'b' but as people started performing 1 Kata in tournaments, the kicks got higher and hten it became the way it was taught.

Try B with this variation - Your opponent has one leg forward and one back such as a half moon. Side blade kick goes to the knee while back fist goes to the forward temple. Works nice off a single lapel grab. Opponent grabs with right hand. You step back with left into side horse stance simultaneously grab opponents right wrist with your left hand. Right hammer strike to Bicep to numb the arm followed by back fist and side blade kick.

 

[SK101]

Most people on this site probably have these concepts, but I like to throw the little details out anyway to refresh or for anyone who hasn't received them.

Pinan 1(Pinion 1) -
Breathing is diaphramic meaning the stomache goes out when you inhale and concaves when you exhale. Your chest should not go up and down.
Horse stance is generally done by placing the feet just beyond shoulders width.
Placing the feet wider works flexibility of the groin muscles while reducing mobility.
Spine is always straight in order to develop good posture.
The head stays at the same height after the beginning salution to the end salutation.
Staying at the same height makes it harder for opponents to judge distance.
Opening salution knuckle roll across each like gears.
Hands stay below the eyes so the view is not obstructed.
Inhale while bringing hands together. Exhale as they go out like 7 & 8 blocks.
At some point students should drop to 90 degree horse stance (Parallel to the floor).
Advantage to toes straight ahead is it allows the hips to rotate easier on punches and kicks.
Disadvantage is there are takedowns based on the toes being straight ahead.
Always look before you turn.
In most SK forms we turn without moving away. In general when you turn to a direction when you don't know what is there you step away from that area then turn with a block toward that area.
1/2 mooning has two fighting applications Striking the inside of the leg to break balance and to practice shifting the weight evenly on the right and left legs.
1/2 mooning backwards is never done in self defense application. All techniques that half moon back are to make it easier for the student to learn to keep there weight 50/50. In reality you just step straight back, but you do it still with the weight 50/50 generally to allow maximum mobility to different directions.
When you step out into a half moon from the cat stance turn the torso in the direction of the block.
Punches are solar plexus level.
Keep a small bend in the elbow for all straight punches unless actually hitting someone who has attacked you. Then lock the elbow.
Only the ball of the foot touches the floor while half mooning.
There are 3 turns learned in Pinan 1 - 90 degrees, 180 degrees, 270 degrees.
Pinan 1 forms the shape of an I or H sideways.
Advantage of Kias are to surprise an opponent, create more energy, exhale air when someone is striking you especially a solar plexus or stomache strike, tighten the muscles around the internal organs.
Disadvantage of a kia is it lets people know when you are exhalling.
There are no Kias in Shaolin all though we use them on our Shaolin inspired forms, but not on Fist Set and some people don't use them in Statu(r)e of the Crane.

 

[kidswarrior]

Yes, I have seen the Shotokan Heian series. The basic movements are very similar, but in my SKK style they are much softer and more fluid. We have incorporated the animals into the pinans as well.

Pinan #1 [Tiger], very karate-like, straight forward, powerful, always pressing.
Pinan #2 [Dragon], still very karate-like, added in the rising and falling into the blocks and strikes.

This is why I dumped the first two--I teach Kempo Kung Fu, not karate.

Pinan #3 [Crane], becomes softer and more fluid in its movements. Striking from a distance.
Pinan #4 [Leopard], very fluid, striking from a distance, minimized movements.
Pinan #5 [Snake], low stances, drawing the opponent into very fast, accurate strikes.

Kept these more fluid forms. Very helpful in learning/practicing kung fu movements.

We are also asked on occasion to do the form as a different animal. I have not done them all this way, but as an example, I have done Pinan #1 as Tiger, Crane, Leopard, Snake and Dragon. All are a bit different in thier movements, blocks and strikes.

Although I was taken to task on another thread (section) for this by someone who claims far greater _____________ (everything) than me (even though I served in SE Asia before he was in kindergarten :hammer: ), I like this idea. Forces some heavy duty critical thinking and corresponding movements.

 

[RevIV]

This is why I dumped the first two--I teach Kempo Kung Fu, not karate

It's funny, because i dumped the last 3 for the same reason you dumped the first 2. Except i do not teach Kung Fu to the extent of a kung fu school. ALthough i have many Wu Shu forms and Kung Fu forms- both northern and southern styles. But,,,, 3,4,and 5 pinon are truly shotokan forms. They have been bastardized down to what we see today but they are shotokan. so any Kung Fu or fluid movements that are in the forms were put there by Kempo people and changed to make it fit their needs. One thing on the internet is you cannot tell my tone of voice. I am not attacking here just stating facts and my feelings on them. I kept 1 pinon for its later uses past black belt. and 2 pinon out of respect for Prof. Cerio because he created it. (plus some good drills in that form)
In Peace
Jesse

 

[kidswarrior]

This is why I dumped the first two--I teach Kempo Kung Fu, not karate

It's funny, because i dumped the last 3 for the same reason you dumped the first 2. Except i do not teach Kung Fu to the extent of a kung fu school. ALthough i have many Wu Shu forms and Kung Fu forms- both northern and southern styles. But,,,, 3,4,and 5 pinon are truly shotokan forms. They have been bastardized down to what we see today but they are shotokan. so any Kung Fu or fluid movements that are in the forms were put there by Kempo people and changed to make it fit their needs. One thing on the internet is you cannot tell my tone of voice. I am not attacking here just stating facts and my feelings on them. I kept 1 pinon for its later uses past black belt. and 2 pinon out of respect for Prof. Cerio because he created it. (plus some good drills in that form)
In Peace
Jesse

That is funny--literally. And I would not have mistaken your post for an attack--it's vey calm and respectful. I made the change not from a knowledge of the history of the forms, but based on intuitive sense of what fit in my system. I guess now I have to call it Shaolin Kempo Shotokan Karate Kung Fu? :boing2: Also, my (Shaolin) background is ussd, so not sure what changes they may have made to the original numbered forms. Thanks for teaching me something!

~kidswarrior

 

[Joe Shuras]

Cool. I hope you are successful.
The more I think about it...Cup and Saucer is a very visual thing and people can 'see' what a cup and saucer look like in their mind. Good luck and can't wait to hear what you find out. (I want a prize if I am right though LOL (..and not a 'cup and saucer' ;-) )

When I switched to SKK under Craig Seavey in 1974, he was a black belt who studied under Mitch Harding and Art Singer (all belted by Gm. Villari). Craig took his black belt test in Dedham, Ma. directly under Fred Villari and "cup & saucer" was the term used then to describe the side to side cover when we were taught #1 Kata, it was called nothing else right up until I left the organization in '81 - Joe

 

[SK101]

Shotokan Karate Kung Fu? :boing2: Also, my (Shaolin) background is ussd, so not sure what changes they may have made to the original numbered forms. Thanks for teaching me something!

~kidswarrior

I am also previous USSD. The forms are almost identicle to what Villari has on his videos. There is as much variation from 1 USSD to another as there is from Villari to USSD.

Shaolin Kempo is really a simplistic term, if you write out all the Shaolin and Karate systems that are present then you come up with some really long confusing name. The name in my oppinion is a very good one for describing a system that starts with primarily Kempo Karate and then has a large chinese influence on it.

Just going back to the Kajukenbo influence your talking about 5 distinct systems - Judo, Jujitsu, Karate(Tang Soo Do), 5 Animal Sil lum Gung Fu, & Kenpo.

 

[Gufbal1982]

Try B with this variation - Your opponent has one leg forward and one back such as a half moon. Side blade kick goes to the knee while back fist goes to the forward temple. Works nice off a single lapel grab. Opponent grabs with right hand. You step back with left into side horse stance simultaneously grab opponents right wrist with your left hand. Right hammer strike to Bicep to numb the arm followed by back fist and side blade kick.

I agree here. It's more practical.