SKK form applications

[RevIV]

"Invincible Wall"
Our version of being backed up against a wall. There are a few sections that I would like to get others opinions on. A simple one and one that might not be easily told.
1). towards end turning left after Left front kick/side kick combo.
my next move is,, L. inward palm block-R leopard paw throat, right rooster stance (R. crane, but instep of foot goes behind L. knee) I do that all simo. and exexute it as a block for a R. punch, strike neck and knee groin at same time.

2). Back up to the crazy hand movements after right driving front punch. sequence I have (get ready to not understand if you have never been taught this form) downward open hand X block, R. outward chx wrist, R. inward palm, R. downward palm, L. back punch, L. over R. trap, R. chx wrist up, R. over L trap, L. Downward hamer onto R. wrist, R. chx wrist in front to chin simo L hammer to side groin area. -------- What the heck is going on in this one? was told numerous times but none obviously stuck because i still do not know.

(marlon and matt -- do not tell me we are working on combo #6 and #7 lefty in the first question for the double kick.. hehehe)

 

[DavidCC]

"Invincible Wall"
Our version of being backed up against a wall. There are a few sections that I would like to get others opinions on. A simple one and one that might not be easily told.
1). towards end turning left after Left front kick/side kick combo.
my next move is,, L. inward palm block-R leopard paw throat, right rooster stance (R. crane, but instep of foot goes behind L. knee) I do that all simo. and exexute it as a block for a R. punch, strike neck and knee groin at same time.

2). Back up to the crazy hand movements after right driving front punch. sequence I have (get ready to not understand if you have never been taught this form) downward open hand X block, R. outward chx wrist, R. inward palm, R. downward palm, L. back punch, L. over R. trap, R. chx wrist up, R. over L trap, L. Downward hamer onto R. wrist, R. chx wrist in front to chin simo L hammer to side groin area. -------- What the heck is going on in this one? was told numerous times but none obviously stuck because i still do not know.

(marlon and matt -- do not tell me we are working on combo #6 and #7 lefty in the first question for the double kick.. hehehe)

not sure but I would asy you are hitting him a whole lotta times LOL

some blocks, some trap, and some strikes... nothing too mysterious I would guess. put it on Youtube let's see it!

 

[14 Kempo]

I've got a first place trophy for that form and I have no idea what that part of the form entails. I agree with David, some blocing, trapping and striking. I'll have to spend some time looking at it and see what I can come up with, then throw it past my instructor and eventually see what Kimo thinks. As one GM that I've spoken to has said about many advanced kempo forms and might say about this one, "Chop suey, it's all chop suey" ... LOL ... Imagine what I could have done with the form had I known what I was doing!

 

[DavidCC]

I've "Chop suey, it's all chop suey" ... LOL ... Imagine what I could have done with the form had I known what I was doing!

I thought it was all Karazempo??? LOL

 

[14 Kempo]

I thought it was all Karazempo??? LOL

Now, now David, let's not get into that discussion, we'll wake up Danjo.

 

[marlon]

not one of my favorite forms, Jesse. However, let me try to write it out b/c i am a little confused:

1. open with outward knives bring them in as you breath in then forward driving knives (this is done slow with breathing and no tension except the weapons)

2. horse stance X block upward, lt inverted hammer, rt thrust then upward X block again

3. pivot into a rt forward stance facing 3:00 with a rt high reverse knife and a lt spear to the throat

4. push off the front leg with three or five upholding blocks or backhand blocks (out of plum tree) while you are in the air

5. lt heel kick landing in a lt forward stance ,downward X block to 3:00 then rt. crane (you call this a chicken wrist...but there is no chicken in the system?!!!?) rt. outward palm rt dropping knife, lt dropping knife, rt, lt, rt then simultaneaous outward cranes to 5:30 (rt) and 9:30

6. Lt leg steps back into a horse stance facing 12:00with a windmill block into a trap on the lt side of your body. rt driving crane to 12:00 then lt palm to 12:00. lt front ball to 12:00 then lt side kick to 9:00 after the kick return to a crane stance lt leg up as the rt hand does a dropping palm at the lt waist and the lt does a rising palm simultaneously at the left side of the body

7. Shift your entire weight onto the left leg facing 9:00 with a rt..willow palm and left leopard paw the rt tibia sits horizontal on the left calf

8. shift your weight back on to the rt leg into a cat stance with double palm pushing towards 9:00 waist height step into a lt forward stance facing 9:00 with double rising palms to the lower rib cage and fininsh with double leopards to the throat

9. the rt leg steps forward into a horse stance facing 7:00 then five thrust punches at that angle going down the body.

10.Rt leg steps back towards 3:00 (cw) with a lt over rt windmill block to trap and the lt leg steps behind the rt leg weight is on the rt leg then shift the weight to the lt leg and give a rt reverse crescent to 12:00 land in a horse stance facing 12:00

11. lt outward crane then rt outward crane both hands hook as in the end of the plum tree blocking. lt front heel kick

12. rt front punch to 10:30, then lt front puinch to 1:30, the rt then lt then rt lt pressing palm to 1:30 shift into a forward stance to that angle and rt leopard strike
end form


is this what you have?

respectfully,
Marlon

 

[RevIV]

5. lt heel kick landing in a lt forward stance ,downward X block to 3:00 then rt. crane (you call this a chicken wrist...but there is no chicken in the system?!!!?) rt. outward palm rt dropping knife, lt dropping knife, rt, lt, rt then simultaneaous outward cranes to 5:30 (rt) and 9:30

yes that is roughly it.
no mantis in the system yet i have been taught it, elephants trunk, crabs pinch,eagle talon, scorpion kick, bear paw, rooster stance, .....
not sure where you were going with the "no chicken wrist in the system" comment.

As to the chop suey comment, I have to agree with you that a lot of the higher froms are just that. I do like this one for nastalgia sake. It was the first Advance form I saw when i was a purple belt. Just stuck from there.

 

[JTKenpo]

5. lt heel kick landing in a lt forward stance ,downward X block to 3:00 then rt. crane (you call this a chicken wrist...but there is no chicken in the system?!!!?) rt. outward palm rt dropping knife, lt dropping knife, rt, lt, rt then simultaneaous outward cranes to 5:30 (rt) and 9:30

yes that is roughly it.
no mantis in the system yet i have been taught it, elephants trunk, crabs pinch,eagle talon, scorpion kick, bear paw, rooster stance, .....
not sure where you were going with the "no chicken wrist in the system" comment.

As to the chop suey comment, I have to agree with you that a lot of the higher froms are just that. I do like this one for nastalgia sake. It was the first Advance form I saw when i was a purple belt. Just stuck from there.

The sequence is a little reminiscent of #46 with the bell block and the regrabs after the wrist break, but unfortunately I never got this form. Working with the sequence you described I can see several applications as described before with trapping sequences, breaks, blocks and strikes. As for the chop suey unfortunately I have heard the same many times over. In looking for applications in Lost Leopard (don't ask why I have leopard and not invincible wall I have no idea) certain sources said there isn't any application that it was developed as a tournament form and then put in the curriculum as one of the advanced black belt forms. So not to get too off topic but if it is all chop suey what are we doing trying to find reasons behind movements that might only be moving for movement sake?

 

[DavidCC]

The sequence is a little reminiscent of #46 with the bell block and the regrabs after the wrist break, but unfortunately I never got this form. Working with the sequence you described I can see several applications as described before with trapping sequences, breaks, blocks and strikes. As for the chop suey unfortunately I have heard the same many times over. In looking for applications in Lost Leopard (don't ask why I have leopard and not invincible wall I have no idea) certain sources said there isn't any application that it was developed as a tournament form and then put in the curriculum as one of the advanced black belt forms. So not to get too off topic but if it is all chop suey what are we doing trying to find reasons behind movements that might only be moving for movement sake?

LOL you guys are making me appreciate the fact that our black belt forms are all okinawan : seisan, suparunpai, etc

 

[marlon]

5. lt heel kick landing in a lt forward stance ,downward X block to 3:00 then rt. crane (you call this a chicken wrist...but there is no chicken in the system?!!!?) rt. outward palm rt dropping knife, lt dropping knife, rt, lt, rt then simultaneaous outward cranes to 5:30 (rt) and 9:30

yes that is roughly it.
no mantis in the system yet i have been taught it, elephants trunk, crabs pinch,eagle talon, scorpion kick, bear paw, rooster stance, .....
not sure where you were going with the "no chicken wrist in the system" comment.

As to the chop suey comment, I have to agree with you that a lot of the higher froms are just that. I do like this one for nastalgia sake. It was the first Advance form I saw when i was a purple belt. Just stuck from there.

so this sequence #5 the basic application that i have is a heel kick to the leg the X block to the punching arm the crane blocks the lt punch the palm strikes the occipital region then presses down. the next strikes work thier way down the bent over body then the lt hand reaches over to the lt side of the attacker (head or shoulder) and grabs while the rt hand presses on the rt shoulder and the double cranes show the direction of the force you apply. this takes the attacker down and they land on thier back. there are other applications but this was the base one i was given. i do not much like this form but...it has its benefits. The rhythm and timing of it workes rapid striking while primarily protecting yourself the wall of defense is made stronger (invincible) by the body's form while striking.

Respectfully,
marlon

 

[marlon]

LOL you guys are making me appreciate the fact that our black belt forms are all okinawan : seisan, suparunpai, etc

While i appreciate the Okinawan styles i love sk and i find it effective and useful. The all chop suey comments and feelings are perhaps about forms i have not come across yet. Although, i have heard of quite a few schools with defiecient teaching, the sytem itself, and the forms are quite valid. imo. Believe me i was very embarrassed about the reputation of sk out there and looked long and hard to invalidate it ...make it better, hide its faults and distance myself from the laughable. In the end , what happened was that i found that it is a very legitimate system, despite all the theatrics surrounding its inception and origins. I say it is no less valid than GM Ed. Parker's system or any Chow related art...there is just the hate of the Villari business practices that make it seem less than what it is. work the material from solid basics and a good understanding of martial arts and, well at least, i have found it excellent. It also, seems that my teacher and Prof. Kimo think so as well. But the truth uis in the training and the testing of it.
\
Respectfully,
Marlon

 

[14 Kempo]

Gees guys, sorry I brought up the 'chop suey' comment. As I have always said and I will most likely always say, there is nothing wrong with the style, only the teaching, as long as a person is willing to keep an open mind and investigate the movements. The same GM that made the comment also stated that with the background experience possessed by the executioner, the forms worked. That comment being a testiment to the person doing the form moving properly within the form.

I'm not the most experienced person in the world, that's for sure, but even I can see that in some SKK based styles there is very little use of the body. The hands are flying around with impressive speed and even showing as much power as can be shown without using the entire body.

As for the forms, I have them all, OK, most of them up through Five Dragons and Lost Leopard, I've even won a tournament with Invincible Wall, so I'm not talking down the forms, just brought up a statement I had heard. Didn't mean for anybody to use it as ammo!

 

[RevIV]

The sequence is a little reminiscent of #46 with the bell block and the regrabs after the wrist break, but unfortunately I never got this form. Working with the sequence you described I can see several applications as described before with trapping sequences, breaks, blocks and strikes. As for the chop suey unfortunately I have heard the same many times over. In looking for applications in Lost Leopard (don't ask why I have leopard and not invincible wall I have no idea) certain sources said there isn't any application that it was developed as a tournament form and then put in the curriculum as one of the advanced black belt forms. So not to get too off topic but if it is all chop suey what are we doing trying to find reasons behind movements that might only be moving for movement sake?

We will need to go over your #46 and mine. As for Lost Leopard it was created by GM Fred Bagley for the tournaments then added as you said-- no hidden anything and thats from the source.

 

[RevIV]

LOL you guys are making me appreciate the fact that our black belt forms are all okinawan : seisan, suparunpai, etc

The organization I was in had the Okinawan forms in also after black - I am happy that i took them all out. They seemed counter-productive to what a Kempo black belt from our system was trying to attain. Master Chun, Jr. does a lot of the Okinawan forms in the early stages the transfer of Hard to soft not soft to hard was the way he was taught by Prof. Chow and his father GM Chun, Sr. I am not saying good or bad one way or another, just that it is interesting how each Master chooses his or her path.

 

[RevIV]

LOL you guys are making me appreciate the fact that our black belt forms are all okinawan : seisan, suparunpai, etc

what Black Belt forms were in your system before your teacher added the Okinawan ones?

 

[DavidCC]

what Black Belt forms were in your system before your teacher added the Okinawan ones?

That's a very astute question, one I am now happhy to answer.

Chriostopher Geary never reached black belt under a SKK teacher, so he never learned any of them. He later trained on his own until Nick Cerio would rank him by video, but I don't beleive he learend any new material form him just got notes on correcting what he already did. Plus Cerio wanted the money.

Later Geary did train some under Lou Angel, and that is where the Okinawan forms come in.

Will Sensei Steiner, now FREE of Geary's control, keep the Okinawan forms, or do away with them? That quesiton is still open. We don't have any training on the SKK forms, so I doubt if they will get put back in.

I think we may end up with some differnet forms also from Okinawan kempo thanks to Sensei Steiner's association with Evan Pantazzi and guys like Asa Seely and Mark Kline. Hakkatsuru mei, Kin Ken; Naihanchi for exmaple I know he has been studying. We will probably keep Sanchin, but it move it down to where we start teaching it at Blue. Everything is up in the air right now.

I don't think our negative impressions of SKK mainstream comes form Villari or even Mattera's bad business practices. I think it comes from the general lack of quality at places like USSD. Like was said above - it's the teachers.

I wrote an article for out student manul on the history of Shaolin kempo. This is the closing paragraph:

Many of the younger teachers of Shaolin Kempo today are reaching out to one another in an effort to re-unite our Art, and to raise the quality to the legendary standards of Cerio, Pesare, Emperado and Chow. We hope that the Steiner Academy will become an important player in that effort, and the hard work by all the students at Steiner Academy is an important part of that. Over 1000 years ago, Confucius said that Self-Improvement is the root of all progress, and it is still true today, every day, at the Steiner Academy of Martial Arts.

 

[John Bishop]

Will Sensei Steiner, now FREE of Geary's control, keep the Okinawan forms, or do away with them? That quesiton is still open. We don't have any training on the SKK forms, so I doubt if they will get put back in.

I think we may end up with some differnet forms also from Okinawan kempo thanks to Sensei Steiner's association with Evan Pantazzi and guys like Asa Seely and Mark Kline. Hakkatsuru mei, Kin Ken; Naihanchi for exmaple I know he has been studying. We will probably keep Sanchin, but it move it down to where we start teaching it at Blue. Everything is up in the air right now.

[/font]

Fight more. Kata less.:btg:

 

[JTKenpo]

Gees guys, sorry I brought up the 'chop suey' comment. As I have always said and I will most likely always say, there is nothing wrong with the style, only the teaching, as long as a person is willing to keep an open mind and investigate the movements. The same GM that made the comment also stated that with the background experience possessed by the executioner, the forms worked. That comment being a testiment to the person doing the form moving properly within the form.

I'm not the most experienced person in the world, that's for sure, but even I can see that in some SKK based styles there is very little use of the body. The hands are flying around with impressive speed and even showing as much power as can be shown without using the entire body.

As for the forms, I have them all, OK, most of them up through Five Dragons and Lost Leopard, I've even won a tournament with Invincible Wall, so I'm not talking down the forms, just brought up a statement I had heard. Didn't mean for anybody to use it as ammo!

I wasn't taking a shot at you at all. The statement is one that has been said time and time again and I certainly was not taking a shot at the GM who said it. But due to the bad publicity we as skk practitioners have gotten from whatever the case may be it is what I think we are all (atleast here) trying to overcome. I believe Marlon but it quite elegantly, thanks again Marlon.

 

[JTKenpo]

That's a very astute question, one I am now happhy to answer.

Chriostopher Geary never reached black belt under a SKK teacher, so he never learned any of them. He later trained on his own until Nick Cerio would rank him by video, but I don't beleive he learend any new material form him just got notes on correcting what he already did. Plus Cerio wanted the money.

Later Geary did train some under Lou Angel, and that is where the Okinawan forms come in.

Will Sensei Steiner, now FREE of Geary's control, keep the Okinawan forms, or do away with them? That quesiton is still open. We don't have any training on the SKK forms, so I doubt if they will get put back in.

I think we may end up with some differnet forms also from Okinawan kempo thanks to Sensei Steiner's association with Evan Pantazzi and guys like Asa Seely and Mark Kline. Hakkatsuru mei, Kin Ken; Naihanchi for exmaple I know he has been studying. We will probably keep Sanchin, but it move it down to where we start teaching it at Blue. Everything is up in the air right now.

I don't think our negative impressions of SKK mainstream comes form Villari or even Mattera's bad business practices. I think it comes from the general lack of quality at places like USSD. Like was said above - it's the teachers.

I wrote an article for out student manul on the history of Shaolin kempo. This is the closing paragraph:

[/font]

Nice job David.

 

[JTKenpo]

We will need to go over your #46 and mine. As for Lost Leopard it was created by GM Fred Bagley for the tournaments then added as you said-- no hidden anything and thats from the source.

I look forward to it sir and thank you for the confirmation.