Pinan/Pinion and Katas

[Karazenpo]

Ralph Castro interacted with Parker and Chow. I'm guessing if hansuki is in his system, its inclusion occurred during the time Chow was in California (circa late 1967-71), if I recall correctly. Professor Cerio would have visited Chow in Hawaii just prior to him coming to the mainland.

I'll look up some dates to confirm.

Matt

Yes Matt, check that out because I am positive I was told that Ralph Castro has a version of Hansuki, ask Master Chun. We should give Professor Sedeno a call, I would think he may be able to confirm this one way or the other. In the meantime, I'll check my files.

 

[Matt]

Speaking of Hansuki, what is with all the crazy versions out there. I am familiar with the version with the 7 double hand strike combo, I have seen about 4 others that leave this combo out and appear to be shorter all together. Any thoughts?

After looking around the net I found one website with a video of Honsuki,which is way different then the one taught in NCK. Not to be judgemental, but the stances are not as rooted as I would think they were originally meant to be. http://www.kempokan.com/Glastonbury/Ken.html Tell me what you guys think.

I've posted a movie of me doing Hansuki a acouple years ago. It's pretty small, but I think you can see well enough to spot the giant glaring error(s). I'll leave it up for a few days, but I don't want to use up my bandwidth. It's about 1.4MB, quicktime.

http://www.capecodmartialarts.com/honsukimatt.mov

Matt

 

[Matt]

Yes Matt, check that out because I am positive I was told that Ralph Castro has a version of Hansuki, ask Master Chun. We should give Professor Sedeno a call, I would think he may be able to confirm this one way or the other. In the meantime, I'll check my files.

That would be a great idea - it wouldn't surprise me if he has the form as he is pretty highly ranked in that art.

Matt

 

[Karazenpo]

No problem, Matt, with all this info we're exchanging its very easy to get off track, I've done it myself. I'll say this though, I've learned a lot after hooking up with all you guys and I hope I've been of help to all of you also. I think #5 pinan is of value too. Here's something funny. NCK does have techniques from #5 pinan in a form and a numerical combination. NCK's #10 combination A & B are the last two techniques in #5 (which is also the same as in the ending of Villari's Honsuki), the Chinese name for it is "The monkey snatching the peach from the tiger's tooth", gotta love those Chinese with their analogies, lol. Anyway, that's NCK's #10a and #10b. Now in Cat Form #3 #10a and #10b is also in the form. I believe that technique was also a favorite of Funakoshi. He stated in his book when he was in his 80's he was assaulted while holding his umbrella and used a variation of this combo on his assailant. Okay, I know you guys are laughing on that one, I wish I could have seen it to....and no, I don't carry an umbrella, lol, I wear a baseball cap when it rains, lol. So, getting back to the point, I really don't know why #5 doesn't fit into NCK, I wish I pursued it with him further but he said the same about katas 3,4 and 5 also. Matt, I'm at my home computer now and it won't play your video, I'll have to wait until I'm at the station. Thanks. Take care & be safe, Joe

 

[Karazenpo]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karazenpo
Quote:
I was told a few years ago there were four major versions of Hansuki (I'd have to check but I think Master Chun told me): 1) Chow/Chun original 2) Ralph Castro Shaolin Kenpo version 3) Fred Villari Shaolin Kempo version 4) Nick Cerio's Kenpo version.

Sorry guys, I checked my files on Master Chun and I couldn't find anything on the four versions of Hansuki but I am absolutely positive I was told that by a good source and that GGM. Castro also has a version. I'm trying to think if it was 'Brother' Peter Teymourez but I honestly can't recall. However, I found some other interesting stuff. Master Chun had told me he has no problem with anyone altering the form. He said, I'm paraphrasing, that is how your history and lineage, our roots, are kept alive and passed down. He said find a spot in the form, say like the end where you can splice in your signature move or moves without interrupting the flow. However, he stated, what's imperative is that you still call the form Hansuki in honor and respect to it's true creator, always. He also said he had no problem with systems using either spelling, Hansuki or Honsuki but his family always used Hansuki. He stated that even though Professor Cerio radically altered the form, he respected his right to do so and that his students should not be upset about that for it does not take away the form's value for it's Professor Cerio's personal perspective of what he learned which is of value. He said just like the masters who came before him had their own visions of kenpo so did Professor Cerio. I stand by the above information as being factual. Respectfully, Professor Joe

 

[Karazenpo]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karazenpo
Hi Matt, it's funny you should say that about #6 kata being the root of Circle of the Panther. When I was studying under Professor Cerio we went over all that. I am absolutely positive that he told me, so you can quote me on this, that Circle of the Panther was derived from #6 kata. Upon myself checking out this form one of the only similiarities that was really noticeable was the jumping front kick (the 'stepping stool' kick), so I don't know what to tell you but I'm sure he said this to me. Any ideas?

Sorry Matt, I made an error on this post and I don't want to confuse anyone. The jump front kick (stepping stool kick) is not in Circle of the Panther, I was thinking of Cat Form #3, must have been in a fog when I posted that-rough night, lol. Looking into Panther, Swift Tigers & #7 Pinan (Pesare), there does appear to be a relationship with these forms where #7 pinan was the model from which the other two were derived from. I think you're right, Professor Cerio probably mean't Circle of the Panther came from #7 but it was so long ago he probably got them confused. As I stated above, I'm sure he said it because at the time, like many, I didn't even know a #7 existed and would have questioned him on it. Gm. Pesare told me a few years ago, it was based on a drill.

 

[GAB]

Hi all,

Hanshi Bruce does the katas 1-5, I have watched them numerous times.
The ones Hanshi does are prior to Kajukenbo so they must be the ones from Okinawa or China.

Good stuff, nothing new in the Americas, only tweeked a little to fit the newbies. I think that is one of the reasons Sijo Emperado changed the names.

When computers came in the world got quite a bit smaller.

Much closer scrutiny these days.

Regards, Gary

 

[Karazenpo]

Hi all,

Hanshi Bruce does the katas 1-5, I have watched them numerous times.
The ones Hanshi does are prior to Kajukenbo so they must be the ones from Okinawa or China.

Good stuff, nothing new in the Americas, only tweeked a little to fit the newbies. I think that is one of the reasons Sijo Emperado changed the names.

When computers came in the world got quite a bit smaller.

Much closer scrutiny these days.

Regards, Gary

Yes Gary but just so some aren't confused the kata and pinan series are two different animals, except for one form. In Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu, there is an original five pinan series, where #4 was inspired by Shotokan's Heian #2 which, inturn, was modeled after Okinawan's Pinan 1. Usually, when kempo people from Sonny Gascon's lineage hear five katas, they think it refers to KGS's original series. Years ago, in the earlier Pesare/Cerio years, they were called katas and then Cerio passed on his teachings to Villari and his Shaolin Kempo Karate still refers to them as katas. Gm. Pesare went back to their original name when he had learned them and now calls the forms 'Pinans' again. To add to the confusion, Shaolin Kempo Karate also has a seperate five pinan series where #'s 3, 4 & 5 were derived from the Japanese/Okinawan series mentioned above. SK's #1 is Shotokan's Taikyoku Shodan and #2 was inspired from the other two forms, nidan and sandan from Taikyoku series. Now, LOL, to really mess things up for you and add to further confusion, Prof. Cerio changed things in 1974. He has a 3 pinan series and a five cat series. Pinan 1 is taikyoku shodan, #2 appears to have been inspired by Heain 1 but modified drastically a little less than half way through the form using several of his self defense techniques, Cerio''s #3 is Shaolin Kempo/Shotokan/Okinawan #3 and he modified traditional karate's Pinan/Heian's 3 and 4 and renamed them Cat Forms 1 & 2. How do you like those apples?, LOL, Confusing enough or what? Fortunately, Sijo Emperado changed the name of his 14 Pinan series to Palama sets to more accurately reflect where they came from. Kajukenbo's forms do have elements from Okinawan karate no doubt but they are original creations and are nothing like the Okinawan pinans. However, one of them is based on Okinawan's Naihanchi shodan. Take care, Joe

 

[GAB]

Hi Joe,
Thanks for clearing that up. LOL
When I asked Hanshi if they were like the Kajukenbo Katas? He said "No".

It is spelled 'pinon' 1-5.

Regards, Gary

 

[Karazenpo]

Hi Joe,
Thanks for clearing that up. LOL
When I asked Hanshi if they were like the Kajukenbo Katas? He said "No".

It is spelled 'pinon' 1-5.

Regards, Gary

Hi, Gary, actually, in Okinawa, it is spelled pinan, check it out. We were told that sometimes it was spelled like it was pronounced which had deviations. Some spelled it pinion. Take care, Joe