Pinan/Pinion and Katas

[The Kai]

I say: Agreed again! Gm. S. George Pesare told us once at a seminar that if these old masters ever so our group today, they would hail us as grandmasters. This was not stated to be an ego thing, just the way things have evolved. Like Robert stated and I'm paraphrasing, if you look at some of those old masters..........well, they just don't look that good as compared to today's standards. True?

I have to agree, all talk about traditions aside, body mechanics, understanding of kinesology and knowledge/desire to learn is way more advanced today
Todd

 

[RRouuselot]

I have to agree, all talk about traditions aside, body mechanics, understanding of kinesology and knowledge/desire to learn is way more advanced today
Todd

I disagree on a couple of points.
1) People that studied martial arts before were quite knowledgeable about body mechanics. My teacher has relayed several accounts of how one of his teachers was extremely knowledgeable about body mechanics and the execution of leverage. For example my own teacher who has never studied any sort of medicine or gone to an anatomy class (as far as I know anyway) could show you where many weak points are and where to strike them to get full benefit and tell you which way the person would fall if you do A or if you do B or C. This comes from over 60 years of studying and pounding on people so I have know doubt he has picked up some pretty good knowledge of how to use the body for offense as well as defense.
2) I think people’s desire to learn today is far less than it was. I base this opinion on hearing what my teacher and several others had to endure just to train. I think 99% of the people that say “I wanna learn ku-ra-dee” wouldn’t last. Even with in the last 20 years the “desire” and “nintai” (perseverance) has gone out of most young people. When I first started training we did full contact sparring almost nightly….after a while I started think "this really sucks".....but kept going because that was what was required.....now if you do bogu once some/many folks will not come back….they just won't gut it out. Everybody seems to want to join a touchy feely dojo with a bunch of "granola heads" where they pass Ki back and forth… instead of actually working up a sweat and doing something where you actually make a bit of contact. Teachers don’t seem to want to do any training where they will lose students either. I dont care since I don't charge money.
I teach a military hand to hand combat class for the Army (ours). One soldier commented that after they were struck by the defender they saw stars……I told them that was “a good thing”...if it hurts it must be working. :ultracool

I would say that strength and sport training have come light years ahead of what they were “back in the day”.

In my original statement I was proposing that some of the “icons” and “masters” that got so much respect were over rated or simply over hyped as the case may be. Either way some of them really stunk.

 

[The Kai]

When I was referring to body mechanics I was referring to how the individual moved. Knowledge of the body's weakness can come from many sources (application, massage, experience).

Not to waver i should have said the potential for learning is greater today now more than ever. Is the oppurtunity grabbed??? Well, there will always be the No touch KO, No sweat workout faction, if they're willing to pay for a belt they can hook their thumbs thru then someone will sell it to them
Todd

 

[Karazenpo]

Robert, boy, do I agree with your #2 point. A while ago, years ago, I started this class I referred to as an Exercise/Endurance class. I started with a full house (Tuesdays & Thursdays (8-9pm), within weeks it was just me and my staff and a few diehards, if that! Around that time, I also had a kick boxing class. Shortly, I ended up with a few diehards along with my staff, lol. A friend of mine who has a small school tried it recently, he said he ended up 'shadowboxing' by himself. I had this guy that came in from another school, an orange belt, said he was almost purple, whatever, but he kept telling me how he wanted the contact. I told me him I felt he wasn't ready yet, but it will come. He kept hounding me so I put him against one of my students who was roughly his experience who liked hard sparring. I'll even name him, he'll laugh if he ever reads this, Joe Fernandes. Joe just made purple and this guy was working toward purple but told me he had hardcore sparring experience. I let them wear head gear, mouth piece and cup. Square them off, within 30 seconds Joe does a jump front ball kick, catches him right on the chin-knockout. As I predicted to my staff, this guy comes back three days later and tells me he has to quit. Reason: his finance found out what happened to him and made him quit!, Ya, right! However, I have to say, my wife has a pretty hardcore Inter-school Sparring League every year and she has them go pretty hot and heavy and believe it or not, she has an excellent turn out. After the season, there is an awards night with a banquet, DJ and trophies. I do have some black belts and advanced students that will take anything we throw at them, very hardcore, so there's still some hope, lol, and I never put them through anything I didn't go through, ( just ask Hanshi Craig Seavey) so I feel comfortable in what I expect from them.

 

[The Kai]

What do you expect in a world with 7 year old black belts and Postage stamp Black belts?:idunno: Todd

 

[Karazenpo]

What do you expect in a world with 7 year old black belts and Postage stamp Black belts?:idunno: Todd

I hear ya, Todd, I hear ya..........

 

[The Kai]

Is it time to cry in our Beers?

Todd

 

[Karazenpo]

Is it time to cry in our Beers?

Todd

Todd, it's Friday night. Too bad you don't live nearby 'cause I would suggest we get a designated driver go to the 99 in Milford and tie one on!!!!!! They have those 22 ounce mugs, they can handle a lot of tears, lol. Joe

 

[Karazenpo]

Hey Matt, Gm. Pesare told me #7 was added after #6. The order never changed and #6 was rank material after shodan. No, I haven't ran that past Sijo because I thought it to be correct from Mr. Cerio and Mr. Pesare. Back in 2001, I was with Kathy, Bob Nohelty and Jimmy Bryant (and other black belts) going over the original forms at Gm. Pesare's Branch Ave. school when Bob approached Gm. Pesare and asked him about Statue of the Crane. He stated it was a 'generic' form he added, generic in the sense that versions of it could be found in 80 per cent of all the major karate styles, not an original Karazenpo form, although he refers to it as No-Hi, spelled exactly like that. I researched No-Hi and found it to be an Okinawan derived form, rather rare, called Crane on a Rock but it didn't look nothing like Statue of the Crane. When I checked Rohai, although radically altered, I still found similiarities, commonalities, such as movements done in a series of three. From everything I gathered so far first hand, Gm. Pesare learned the Karazenpo forms 1-5 from Sijo Gascon and has never altered them to this day.

Matt stated: "Having done Swift tigers and 6 kata for a while now, I don't find them very similar."

I say: Totally agree!


Take care, 'Joe'

Matt, I had some time on my hands so I decided to see if I could find the breakdown of No Hi. Haven't found it yet, I'm still searching but in the mean time this is what I came up with. The No Hi I found that resembled our 'Crane' is from an Okinawan Shorin ryu system. Here's a link:http://www.mattharrell.net/personal/kata.html
Funny part is, when I originally researched this I found No Hi means 'Crane on a Rock' and Rohai-Symbol of the White Heron or Vision of a Crane which I re-confirmed BUT I also found sites listing Gankaku, Chinto and Rohai, all listed in one site or another as 'Crane on a Rock'! I also found the Korean form spelled Nohi, meaning single point, focus. It stated it is a breaking form and should be performed with tiles or breaking material. It's nothing like our Crane but I can see where all this confusion comes in. Okay, back to the search!

Just found this:http://www.shoreikempo.com/classreq.php Okinawan Shorei ryu kempo requirement for shodan.
I also found the 'Ro' in Rohai does stand for 'Heron' or Heron mark.

 

[Gentle Fist]

Prof Joe, maybe you can clear this up...

Knowing a little bit about NCK I am interested in this topic, but I am confused on some of the NCK forms and where they came from...

Pinan 1 and 2: I understand these.

Pinan 3: from Pinan Sandan? - I thought it was created by Prof Cerio, using his combinations 5,6,7 and 8?

Pinan 4: from Pinan Yondan? - I have never seen NCK's Pinan 4, so I have no idea

Pinan 5: from Pinan Godan? - never have seen this one either.

Cat 1: looks like Pinan Sandan to me.

Cat 2: looks like Pinan Yondan.

Cat 3: I know this was Prof Cerio's creation.

Cat 4: does this exsist??

Cat 5: Hansuki??

Circle of the Tiger: Pretty sure this is from Kata 1.

Statue of the Crane: Like most have said this comes from Rohai or something like it, too many versions out there.

Circle of the Leopard: Kata 2.

Circle of the Panther: I also heard this was from Kata 6.

What did Prof Cerio do with Kata 3,Kata 4, and Kata 5? Any answers would be most helpfull!!

 

[Matt]

Prof Joe, maybe you can clear this up...

Knowing a little bit about NCK I am interested in this topic, but I am confused on some of the NCK forms and where they came from...

Pinan 1 and 2: I understand these.

Pinan 3: from Pinan Sandan? - I thought it was created by Prof Cerio, using his combinations 5,6,7 and 8?

Okay, fair call. To clarify, Pinan 3 as the Shaolin Kempo guys have it is what Nick Cerio had as his 3 pinan while he was training villari, before Nick Cerio's Kenpo had taken shape. Pinan 3 in the Cerio system now appears to be yet another 'kung line' variation on taikyoku shodan/nidan/sandan. I don't see the comb. 5-8 though.

Pinan 4: from Pinan Yondan? - I have never seen NCK's Pinan 4, so I have no idea

Pinan 5: from Pinan Godan? - never have seen this one either.

As far as I know, Nick Cerio's Kenpo only has forms named Pinan (1-3). You are correct. It would be Villari folks and offshoots that follow the pinan 1-5 convention.

Cat 1: looks like Pinan Sandan to me.

Cat 2: looks like Pinan Yondan.

Exactly right.

Cat 3: I know this was Prof Cerio's creation.

Okay, I'll buy that.

Cat 4: does this exsist??

Probably not.

Cat 5: Hansuki??

ohh no - he called Honsuki honsuki. He just didn't hand it out much, and lamented how most of us did it.

Circle of the Tiger: Pretty sure this is from Kata 1.

Yes, but I think in the NCIMAA magazine, they hint that there's some more (three ) inthere.

Statue of the Crane: Like most have said this comes from Rohai or something like it, too many versions out there.

Yeah, pretty much.

Circle of the Leopard: Kata 2.

Right on!

Circle of the Panther: I also heard this was from Kata 6.

Joe has pretty much a direct quote of Professor Cerio saying that. I still feel that it has more to do with Pesare's Kata 7. My 6 kata looks almost exactly like pesare's 6 kata, and it really doesn't seem to be parsimonious to have it skip a generation.

What did Prof Cerio do with Kata 3,Kata 4, and Kata 5? Any answers would be most helpfull!!

Tossed in blender, served warm. Yes, snippets can be seen here and there.


Good luck keeping track,

MAtt

 

[Karazenpo]

Prof Joe, maybe you can clear this up...

Knowing a little bit about NCK I am interested in this topic, but I am confused on some of the NCK forms and where they came from...

Pinan 1 and 2: I understand these.

Pinan 3: from Pinan Sandan? - I thought it was created by Prof Cerio, using his combinations 5,6,7 and 8?

Pinan 4: from Pinan Yondan? - I have never seen NCK's Pinan 4, so I have no idea

Pinan 5: from Pinan Godan? - never have seen this one either.

Cat 1: looks like Pinan Sandan to me.

Cat 2: looks like Pinan Yondan.

Cat 3: I know this was Prof Cerio's creation.

Cat 4: does this exsist??

Cat 5: Hansuki??

Circle of the Tiger: Pretty sure this is from Kata 1.

Statue of the Crane: Like most have said this comes from Rohai or something like it, too many versions out there.

Circle of the Leopard: Kata 2.

Circle of the Panther: I also heard this was from Kata 6.

Hello Fistlaw, Matt pretty much summed it up. Just to add, NCK Cat Form #4 is also his own creation and Cat Form #5, although radically altered was inspired by Hansuki. When I asked the Professor why he didn't use this form or that form from the original Karazenpo, he just said "it didn't fit into his system." Yes Matt, your #6 kata is very close to what Gm. Pesare currently teaches and I agree with you on the issue with Circle of the Panther and #6 but that is what he told me when I asked him. At the time when I asked him (1990) I didn't even know #7 kata existed! As far as Hansuki (Chun's spelling) goes, the Professor didn't have any idea what it translated to, I was working on that with him. Don't forget, back then we didn't have the internet like we do know and research was much more difficult.

What did Prof Cerio do with Kata 3,Kata 4, and Kata 5? Any answers would be most helpfull!!

Hello Fistlaw, Matt pretty much summed it up. Just to add, NCK Cat Form #4 is also his own creation and Cat Form #5, although radically altered was inspired by Hansuki. When I asked the Professor why he didn't use this form or that form from the original Karazenpo, he just said "it didn't fit into his system." Yes Matt, your #6 kata is very close to what Gm. Pesare currently teaches and I agree with you on the issue with Circle of the Panter and #6 but that is what he told me when I asked him. At the time when I asked him (1990) I didn't even know #7 kata existed! As far as Hansuki (Chun's spelling) goes, the Professor didn't have any idea what it translated to, I was working on that with him. Don't forget, back then we didn't have the internet like we do now and research was much more difficult. NCK'a Pinan 1 and Pinan 3 is Shaolin Kempo's #1 and #2. Cerio's #2 Pinan was inspired by (only the first half of it) Okinawan Pinan #2 which is Shotokan's Heian 1. After about the first half it becomes radically altered. He uses one of his self defense techniques (right and left side) to close it out. Cat#1 is actually NCK's version of SKK #3 pinan and Cat #2 is SKK's #4 pinan. Respectfully, Professor Joe

 

[Karazenpo]

Quote:

Circle of the Tiger: Pretty sure this is from Kata 1.
Yes, but I think in the NCIMAA magazine, they hint that there's some more (three ) inthere.


I would like to comment on the above quote also:

Yes, Circle of the Tiger was based on #1 Kata of the Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu system. If you carefully disect this form you will find all of the elements of #1 Kata in Circle of the Tiger and of course additions. I spoke with Professor Cerio indepth on this form. The basic framework of the form is from the Karazenpo concepts of the first kata, then built around that are additions from his training in various arts under various instructors, in other words, various influences. However, there is absolutely no mistaking it for anything else but a Kenpo form. Notice the form's circulartory nucleus resulting in a nice flow of continuous motion, a Chinese Ch'uan fa (Kempo) influenced concept. This form, if I may quote him, was 'his baby'. He considered it the nucleus of Nick Cerio's Kenpo-self defense in a tight circle. Circle of the Tiger was to Nick Cerio as Naihanchi shodan was to Choki Motobu and James Mitose. If there was one form that summed up Professor Nick Cerio, it is Circle of the Tiger! This, I'm paraphrasing, from his own admissions.

 

[Gentle Fist]

Thanks guys for all the help!

So Pinan 4 and 5 don't exsist in NCK today?

Cat 5 is not Hansuki, but resembles it?

I know Hansuki is still alive and well in NCK, but is not given out to at least Nidan or Sandan rank.

Speaking of Hansuki, what is with all the crazy versions out there. I am familiar with the version with the 7 double hand strike combo, I have seen about 4 others that leave this combo out and appear to be shorter all together. Any thoughts?

After looking around the net I found one website with a video of Honsuki,which is way different then the one taught in NCK. Not to be judgemental, but the stances are not as rooted as I would think they were originally meant to be. http://www.kempokan.com/Glastonbury/Ken.html Tell me what you guys think.

 

[Matt]

Thanks guys for all the help!

Hey, it's our area:supcool:

So Pinan 4 and 5 don't exsist in NCK today?

Not that I know of.

Cat 5 is not Hansuki, but resembles it?

I have to defer to Joe, here, as I wasn't even aware of it.

I know Hansuki is still alive and well in NCK, but is not given out to at least Nidan or Sandan rank.

Speaking of Hansuki, what is with all the crazy versions out there. I am familiar with the version with the 7 double hand strike combo, I have seen about 4 others that leave this combo out and appear to be shorter all together. Any thoughts?

Well, there are a bunch of versions out there, and as far as I can tell, none of the ones here on the East Coast match up really well with Professor Bill Chun Jr.'s version. I was always warned that If I was in a tournament and Professor Cerio was judging never to do honsuki as he considered the version most seen in these parts 'wrong', and would score it harshly. I never had cause(or a heck of a lot of desire) to test this out.

After looking around the net I found one website with a video of Honsuki,which is way different then the one taught in NCK. Not to be judgemental, but the stances are not as rooted as I would think they were originally meant to be. http://www.kempokan.com/Glastonbury/Ken.html Tell me what you guys think.

I've seen that one before. Here's what I think:
Content: the choreography (moves, strikes and stances) appear very similar to the version of the form I have.
Execution: I perform it in a very different manner. If I get a chance, I'll post video. Perhaps you could tape your version and we could compare/contrast.
If you want a pretty thorough overview of honsuki, contact [email protected], as he has just finished a video on it.

Matt

 

[Karazenpo]

Hey guys!, Shaolin Kempo's #4 pinan is in Nick Cerio's Kenpo. It has been altered and is called Cat#2. #5 pinan is not used, when I asked the Professor why, he simply stated it didn't fit into his system. Cat#5 is NCK's perspective of Hansuki, because he seriously altered it, the Professor called it Cat#5 instead of its original name. Professor and I also spoke quite a bit about Hansuki and why the Villari version was different. He told me Villari left out elbows and sweeps that were in the original. When I was with KenpoJoe & Matt a couple years ago at Bill Chun's seminar he demonstrated some of the beginning, the middle and the end. It was different but there were parts that you could most definitely relate to in the Villari version. I did see the elbows Cerio talked about that were missing. As far as sweeps go, I believe they are in the footwork of the Villari version. I have the original Villari version and we went over it with Fred sometime around '78-79 in Dedham, ma. The form was originally taught to me by Craig Seavey and when I went to Fred at a black belt workout, it was the same. I'll check out that Hansuki website and let you guys know what I think, thanks, Joe

I just tried Ken's website, my computer won't play the video.

 

[Karazenpo]

Quote:
I know Hansuki is still alive and well in NCK, but is not given out to at least Nidan or Sandan rank.

Speaking of Hansuki, what is with all the crazy versions out there. I am familiar with the version with the 7 double hand strike combo, I have seen about 4 others that leave this combo out and appear to be shorter all together. Any thoughts?


I have the original Villari version and the two opening sequences going toward 9 o'clock and then 3 'clock have seven hand strikes in combination, as a matter of fact Master John Fritz (highest ranking Villari black belt at 9th dan) used to also refer to the form as '7 Death Strikes of the Tiger' back in the 70's. I ran this past Professor Cerio and he said he didn't know what it translated to but that wasn't it. The seven double hand strike combo you mentioned was taught to me as six. I showed it to Professor Cerio and he said that was a Villari addition, it wasn't in the one he learned. I was told a few years ago there were four major versions of Hansuki (I'd have to check but I think Master Chun told me): 1) Chow/Chun original 2) Ralph Castro Shaolin Kenpo version 3) Fred Villari Shaolin Kempo version 4) Nick Cerio's Kenpo version.

 

[Thunderbolt]

Quote:
I was told a few years ago there were four major versions of Hansuki (I'd have to check but I think Master Chun told me): 1) Chow/Chun original 2) Ralph Castro Shaolin Kenpo version 3) Fred Villari Shaolin Kempo version 4) Nick Cerio's Kenpo version.

I am an opened mind person and love to know what other arts are about. I read a few posts about "hansuki" here. I can see where 1 3 4 number comes from EXCEPT number 2 (ralph castrol)

ralph castrol has his own version of hansuki too.? anybody saw it??

btw, what is hansuki.?? thank you.

 

[Matt]

I am an opened mind person and love to know what other arts are about. I read a few posts about "hansuki" here. I can see where 1 3 4 number comes from EXCEPT number 2 (ralph castrol)

ralph castrol has his own version of hansuki too.? anybody saw it??

btw, what is hansuki.?? thank you.

Ralph Castro interacted with Parker and Chow. I'm guessing if hansuki is in his system, its inclusion occurred during the time Chow was in California (circa late 1967-71), if I recall correctly. Professor Cerio would have visited Chow in Hawaii just prior to him coming to the mainland.

I'll look up some dates to confirm.

Matt

 

[Matt]

Hey guys!, Shaolin Kempo's #4 pinan is in Nick Cerio's Kenpo. It has been altered and is called Cat#2. #5 pinan is not used, when I asked the Professor why, he simply stated it didn't fit into his system. Cat#5 is NCK's perspective of Hansuki, because he seriously altered it, the Professor called it Cat#5 instead of its original name.

Oops! Yes we came to that conclusion in post #74 or so, but wandered away from it. I think we had a semantic breakdown.

We made the Cat 2 connection, but made it with a pinan yondan. When he said there is no Pinan 4 or 5, I took it to mean that there was no form named pinan 4 or pinan 5 in the system. Sorry.

That's very interesting that he left out #5 pinan because it didn't fit in his system. I think it's great that he had the willpower to discard something that wasn't useful to his vision of kenpo. There's too many 'collectors' in this world. It's very important to not only learn useful things but to discard useless ones as well. This doesn't mean that #5 pinan is useless in general, but just to kenpo as Professor Cerio saw it.

Thaks for bringing us back to the point.

Matt