Pinan/Pinion and Katas

[RRouuselot]

.....About Robert Trias, he is of the Motobu lineage, I firmly believe that but I also vaguely recall him stating he had also been a student of Motobu, I must have read it in Bruce Haines' book but I can't recall. Thanks. Professor Joe

I read it in Bruce Haine’s book called Karate History and Traditions (new version)

 

[Matt]

Hi Matt, I got that Kamalani information on #3 kata from brother Peter Teymourez in California. I'm sure you know of him. Peter is very anal on everything he reports but it would be interesting to check out further. Give it a shot. Who knows, curriculums were known to change often back then, especially with Sifu Leoning and I'm sure Professor Godin's Chinese Kenpo didn't use the original Karazenpo katas either but that was my source, other than that I heard it no where else. The funny part of Professor Cerio's pinan series additions was that he told me he got them from Mas Oyama's book! To this day, some websites have him listed as a student of Oyama but he never met the man!, lol. Hey, you have to give him credit, he pulled no punches, he was honest about it!, lol.

I think Mr. Temouraz got his info from the paper (which is overall pretty good) by J. Madriaga on the history and development of Shaolin Kempo, but there are some inaccuracies in it. For example, the same paper credits Nick Cerio with the creation of 6 and 7 pinion (kata) which are George Pesare's as far as I know, and points to 6 kata as being the root of Circle of the Panther and Swift tigers. Most of these 'inaccuracies' occur within the matrix at the end, and might have been corrected in subsequent versions, but I could only find the old one on my hard drive this morning.

I don't mean to badmouth the paper, as it is 90% great, and when it came out was really head and shoulders above most of the existing documentation. I even cited it in my timeline. :ultracool

Matt

 

[Matt]

IF Funakoshi stated this as written in one of the posts: "He also wrote that adding things to karate like grappling was ridiculous" then it is obvious he had no real combative experience whatsoever.

Given that he had sections on the throwing and grappling arts included in karate such as arm bars, escapes etc. in Karate Jutsu, do you think he meant that it was redundant; i.e. the grappling was already there?

Matt

 

[Matt]

Is that A&E special going to have anything on Mizuho's impact on hawaii's karate to the best of your knowledge? To me his link is very interesting. I wish the tracy's people would give their take on him.

Charles Goodin has written some great articles on him. Check out http://www.seinenkai.com/ if you haven't already. I touch on it very briefly at my website: http://home.comcast.net/~matthewabarnes/

Matt: Great stuff.

Thanks!

Matt

 

[RRouuselot]

Given that he had sections on the throwing and grappling arts included in karate such as arm bars, escapes etc. in Karate Jutsu, do you think he meant that it was redundant; i.e. the grappling was already there?

Matt

I have seen that too.
When Funakoshi was introduced to a judoka he couldn't throw the guy......his student Ohtsuka could however. Maybe Funakoshi was just embarassed........

 

[Karazenpo]

I think Mr. Temouraz got his info from the paper (which is overall pretty good) by J. Madriaga on the history and development of Shaolin Kempo, but there are some inaccuracies in it. For example, the same paper credits Nick Cerio with the creation of 6 and 7 pinion (kata) which are George Pesare's as far as I know, and points to 6 kata as being the root of Circle of the Panther and Swift tigers. Most of these 'inaccuracies' occur within the matrix at the end, and might have been corrected in subsequent versions, but I could only find the old one on my hard drive this morning.

I don't mean to badmouth the paper, as it is 90% great, and when it came out was really head and shoulders above most of the existing documentation. I even cited it in my timeline. :ultracool

Matt

Hi Matt, it's funny you should say that about #6 kata being the root of Circle of the Panther. When I was studying under Professor Cerio we went over all that. I am absolutely positive that he told me, so you can quote me on this, that Circle of the Panther was derived from #6 kata. Upon myself checking out this form one of the only similiarities that was really noticeable was the jumping front kick (the 'stepping stool' kick), so I don't know what to tell you but I'm sure he said this to me. Any ideas? Yes Matt, I am also positive that #6 & 7 pinans (we would call katas) were created by Gm. Pesare for he told me himself although his version is a 'little' different than the Shaolin Kempo one, but not really that much. Gm. Pesare told me that he created #7 from a 'drill' he used to teach in class. "Joe"

 

[Matt]

Hi Matt, it's funny you should say that about #6 kata being the root of Circle of the Panther. When I was studying under Professor Cerio we went over all that. I am absolutely positive that he told me, so you can quote me on this, that Circle of the Panther was derived from #6 kata. Upon myself checking out this form one of the only similiarities that was really noticeable was the jumping front kick (the 'stepping stool' kick), so I don't know what to tell you but I'm sure he said this to me. Any ideas?

Ummm....
Maybe a couple. These are purely speculation.
1.) He forgot over the years and meant 7?
2.) 7 was created first and 6 was inserted after?
3.) the order was changed after he left?
4.) 6 wasn't designated rank material until after he left?

I don't know!

I would even posit that 6 kata was created after he left, but since it's in the villari curriculm, I don't see how it could have skipped a generation. I can't comment that accurately yet, but I am hoping to get a closer look at 7 pinan and drawing a more solid conclusion. The only thing that I can say, is when I saw 7 pinan being performed, I immediately thought, "hey, that reminds me of swift tigers." It's not that far of a leap based on comparison to apply the transitive property to get Swift tigers =>circle of the panther=> 7 pinan. Having done Swift tigers and 6 kata for a while now, I don't find them very similar.

Yes Matt, I am also positive that #6 & 7 pinans (we would call katas) were created by Gm. Pesare for he told me himself although his version is a 'little' different than the Shaolin Kempo one, but not really that much. Gm. Pesare told me that he created #7 from a 'drill' he used to teach in class. "Joe"

Yes, that's the story I got as well, and the fact that he does them seems to argue in favor. One doesn't see kata swimming 'upstream' that often. Although the Karazenpo site talks (or at least used to mention)about Rohai / Statue of the Crane. Any thoughts on that? In your talks with Sijo Gascon, has he identified specific curriculum items, e.g. "we added this, Pesare added that, etc."? I haven't yet had the chance to ask him these questions.

Matt

 

[Karazenpo]

Ummm....
Maybe a couple. These are purely speculation.
1.) He forgot over the years and meant 7?
2.) 7 was created first and 6 was inserted after?
3.) the order was changed after he left?
4.) 6 wasn't designated rank material until after he left?

I don't know!

I would even posit that 6 kata was created after he left, but since it's in the villari curriculm, I don't see how it could have skipped a generation. I can't comment that accurately yet, but I am hoping to get a closer look at 7 pinan and drawing a more solid conclusion. The only thing that I can say, is when I saw 7 pinan being performed, I immediately thought, "hey, that reminds me of swift tigers." It's not that far of a leap based on comparison to apply the transitive property to get Swift tigers =>circle of the panther=> 7 pinan. Having done Swift tigers and 6 kata for a while now, I don't find them very similar.





Yes, that's the story I got as well, and the fact that he does them seems to argue in favor. One doesn't see kata swimming 'upstream' that often. Although the Karazenpo site talks (or at least used to mention)about Rohai / Statue of the Crane. Any thoughts on that? In your talks with Sijo Gascon, has he identified specific curriculum items, e.g. "we added this, Pesare added that, etc."? I haven't yet had the chance to ask him these questions.

Matt

Hey Matt, Gm. Pesare told me #7 was added after #6. The order never changed and #6 was rank material after shodan. No, I haven't ran that past Sijo because I thought it to be correct from Mr. Cerio and Mr. Pesare. Back in 2001, I was with Kathy, Bob Nohelty and Jimmy Bryant (and other black belts) going over the original forms at Gm. Pesare's Branch Ave. school when Bob approached Gm. Pesare and asked him about Statue of the Crane. He stated it was a 'generic' form he added, generic in the sense that versions of it could be found in 80 per cent of all the major karate styles, not an original Karazenpo form, although he refers to it as No-Hi, spelled exactly like that. I researched No-Hi and found it to be an Okinawan derived form, rather rare, called Crane on a Rock but it didn't look nothing like Statue of the Crane. When I checked Rohai, although radically altered, I still found similiarities, commonalities, such as movements done in a series of three. From everything I gathered so far first hand, Gm. Pesare learned the Karazenpo forms 1-5 from Sijo Gascon and has never altered them to this day.

Matt stated: "Having done Swift tigers and 6 kata for a while now, I don't find them very similar."

I say: Totally agree!


Take care, 'Joe'

 

[Karazenpo]

Here's some interesting reading:


On Choki Motobu – Part 1
By By Patrick McCarthy

Editor’s Note: This article was originally titled “More On Motobu” and is included in the book “Motobu Choki Karate – My Art” compiled and translated by Patrick and Yuriko McCarthy. The article has been edited to stand alone and appears in two parts on FightingArts.com.

Introducing Karate to the West

In addition to Yubu Kentsu and Miyagi Chojun, two other pre-war teachers named Mutsu Mizuho and Higaonna Kamessuke also taught karate in Hawaii. What only a few people probably know is that Motobu Choki also visited and taught karate in Hawaii.

Two announcements of Motobu’s arrival in Hawaii appeared in local Hawaiian newspapers at that time. The March 13th 1932 issue of a local Japanese newspaper named, “The Nippon Jiji,” reads, “Karate-jutsu authority, Motobu Choki will be arriving in Hawaii on board the Shunyo Maru. Motobu Choki who is teaching karate-jutsu to several hundred students in Tokyo is a well-known authority and presently has his own dojo in Hara Town of Koishikawa Ward of Tokyo. At this time, we understand that he is en route to Hawaii on board the Shunyo Maru, scheduled to arrive on the 26th. Invited by Tamanaha Yoshimatsu of Hawaii, Motobu Choki is the third son of the wealthy Motobu family from the town of Suri in Okinawa Prefecture. He’s enthusiastically studied karate-jutsu since his childhood and is recognized as an authority on Japan.”

The other announcement of his arrival in Hawaii appears in the March 13th 1932 issue of the “The Hawaii Hochi.” It reads, “Karate authority Motobu Choki will be arriving on the 26th. Motobu Choki, who is teaching several hundred students in Tokyo, is well known as an authority on karate/martial arts. Presently he has a dojo in Hara Town of Koishikawa Third Ward in Tokyo but we recently heard that he’ll be arriving in Hawaii on board the Shunyo Maru, on the 26th. He is the third son of the wealthy Motobu family from the town of Shuri in Okinawa. He’s been devoted to studying karate-jutsu since childhood and he’s a very famous martial artist. In fact, there’s almost no one who’s not familiar with his nickname, Saru.”

On pages 64-65 of Bruce Hain’s Master’s thesis entitled “Karate & Its Development in Hawaii to 1959,” I found the following testimony from an interview with Thomas Miyashiro, the only person to ever train directly under Motobu Choki during his brief stay in Hawaii in 1932: “In the late twenties and early thirties in Hawaii it was common for boxing promoters, etc., to match judo men against boxers. Seeing that these matches proved interesting and profitable, a group of Okinawan men headed by Mr. Chosho Tamanaha decided to pit a karate man against a boxer. This group selected Choki Motobu, the great Okinawan master who had defeated a ‘Russian heavyweight boxer’ in a bare-handed bout in 1922

 

[Karazenpo]

Hey, look at this one, essentially what Robert stated. It makes you wonder about this legitimate rank thing.

Of course, the Butoku-kai continued to sanction head teachers directly. This was not without controversy, however, since Konishi sat on the board that awarded Funakoshi his renshi and Konishi had been Funakoshi's student. Of course, Konishi had inside ties to the Butoku-kai by virtue of birth, something the Okinawan Funakoshi could not have.

 

[BlackCatBonz]

see prof joe.......there's dirty little secrets everywhere we turn

shawn

 

[RRouuselot]

see prof joe.......there's dirty little secrets everywhere we turn

shawn

Some folks have more than their fair share too.....

 

[Karazenpo]

see prof joe.......there's dirty little secrets everywhere we turn

shawn

Agreed! Don't get me wrong, Shawn, that's my point. I have heard so much B.S. over the years from some of these so-called 'traditionalists', specifically 'Shotokan', but others too, about their system being 'pure' and their negative comments over our Hawaiian-derived kenpo/kempo systems and their legitimate rank B.S. with their 'masters' and now we can all see it's just all that, B.S. In the words of San Jose Kenpo's Dave Simmons, they can all KMA!, lol. Sorry Dave, I had to borrow that one from you!, I didn't think you'd mind though! lol.

 

[Karazenpo]

Some folks have more than their fair share too.....

You know Robert, I used to think that, it was all based on a scale from one to ten, but now I feel it's six of one, half dozen of another. They're all the same. You just have to know where to look for the skeletons, that's all. Just my thoughts............

 

[RRouuselot]

Agreed! Don't get me wrong, Shawn, that's my point. I have heard so much B.S. over the years from some of these so-called 'traditionalists', specifically 'Shotokan', but others too, about their system being 'pure' and their negative comments over our Hawaiian-derived kenpo/kempo systems and their legitimate rank B.S. with their 'masters' and now we can all see it's just all that, B.S. In the words of San Jose Kenpo's Dave Simmons, they can all KMA!, lol. Sorry Dave, I had to borrow that one from you!, I didn't think you'd mind though! lol.

This is exactly why I never post my rank or even or tell folks what it is.....because it doesn't matter. Motobu never had rank as far as I know....he seem to open a can of whoops *** just fine.....train like there is no tomorrow because there might not be if you don't. ........
I do get a little P.O.ed when folks claim to having super high ranks with limited or no time studying.....it's not the rank that bothers me so much .....it's the out right lie.

 

[RRouuselot]

You know Robert, I used to think that, it was all based on a scale from one to ten, but now I feel it's six of one, half dozen of another. They're all the same. You just have to know where to look for the skeletons, that's all. Just my thoughts............

I disagree about skeletons.....at least martial arts wise anyway. (personal lives aside)
I have met some folks (known them most of my life actually) and they are what they say......they can do what they say.

 

[The Kai]

There are plenty of good people out there teaching the martial arts.

Did Funakoshi promote himself? Of course, it is the same today as ever there are plenty of martial artists that you see in the magazines that "are'nt all that". Did Funakoshi's promotion help out the art of Karate in general? Sure did much to populariize the art
I would'nt really say this was a skeleton in a closet though
Todd

 

[RRouuselot]

There are plenty of good people out there teaching the martial arts.

Did Funakoshi promote himself? Of course, it is the same today as ever there are plenty of martial artists that you see in the magazines that "are'nt all that". Did Funakoshi's promotion help out the art of Karate in general? Sure did much to populariize the art
I would'nt really say this was a skeleton in a closet though
Todd

I think you may have misunderstood the point. The Japanese asked him what rank he had and were amazed that he had none. Japanese seem to equivocate rank with skill.
Go figure.
Funakoshi’s rank had nothing to do with the popularization of the art since he didn’t get any rank until karate had already become popular.
I think the “skeletons” were in reference to all the lies and half truths Funakoshi told not really about his rank.
Speaking of rank…….I saw an 8mm movie of Funakoshi doing kata ………it was pretty bad.

 

[Karazenpo]

I think you may have misunderstood the point. The Japanese asked him what rank he had and were amazed that he had none. Japanese seem to equivocate rank with skill.
Go figure.
Funakoshi’s rank had nothing to do with the popularization of the art since he didn’t get any rank until karate had already become popular.
I think the “skeletons” were in reference to all the lies and half truths Funakoshi told not really about his rank.
Speaking of rank…….I saw an 8mm movie of Funakoshi doing kata ………it was pretty bad.

Yes, Robert I know what you're saying, I too have met martial artists who are what they say they are but my comment is more in line with systems and lineages than individual persons, although I do mean some indivivduals too. I just feel we all should be careful about throwing stones and be reminded of the glass house syndrome because even if we have done things proper, there is always someone in our lineage who hasn't and that can come back to bite us in the butt when we criticize others.

Robert wrote: Speaking of rank…….I saw an 8mm movie of Funakoshi doing kata ………it was pretty bad.[/QUOTE]

I say: Agreed again! Gm. S. George Pesare told us once at a seminar that if these old masters ever so our group today, they would hail us as grandmasters. This was not stated to be an ego thing, just the way things have evolved. Like Robert stated and I'm paraphrasing, if you look at some of those old masters..........well, they just don't look that good as compared to today's standards. True?

 

[James Kovacich]

Some folks have more than their fair share too.....

Who you talking about?