Picking a martial art?

[ShotoNoob]

In response to criticism of their physical form not being "practical" AKA kickboxing, sport karate, etc, that's not what they are doing. Their physical form builds, facilities, and executes mental discipline. That's where the power & effectiveness of traditional karate comes from.....

 

[ShotoNoob]

Shes demonstrating one particular move, you really cant extrapolate the points you made from that.

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No, YOU can't. I can.
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You really have zero idea howd she move with an opponent in either free sparring or one step

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Physical form is static. Principles are fluid. Ippon Kumite is not physical form. Doing physical form is athletics. Doing physical form is sports. Ippon Kumite demonstrates not physical form, it demonstrates fighting principles.... Ippon Kumite is an exercise in mental discipline. Specifically, Ippon Kumite centers on KIME.

 

[Drose427]

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No, YOU can't. I can.


You really have zero idea howd she move with an opponent in either free sparring or one step

[/QUOTE]

Yeah, but youre literally just making it up using your imagination...

 

[ShotoNoob]

Yeah, but youre literally just making it up using your imagination...

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Keep telling yourself that. All my defeated opponents (mostly) say the same thing. Traditional karate is a mental discipline. it's about applying principles. You have a different definition of what those principles are than do I.... That's it.....

 

[ShotoNoob]

I have no problem with simplified exercises like one-steps. I have no problem with practicing moves at less than full speed and power. (Not always, but it has its place.) I have a big problem with practicing using incorrect distancing. Distancing is one of the most important aspects of combat no matter what the context.
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Distancing is in no way limited to sport fighting. If you can't reach me, you can't hurt me. That's a fundamental reality whether you're in the ring, on the street, or on a medieval battlefield.

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As to your quote on DISTANCING, For practical purposes, I would completely agree.
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Once we have the question of distancing on the table, the question arise on how does one conceptually approach that distancing. this is something that TMA, in my book, does in a fundamentally different way than the sport fighting methods such a boxing--and what we typically see in MMA.
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And, we if look at TMA, the traditional karates styles, we see another divergence between the highly mobile, darting in & out of range we typically see in competition kumite; AND, the type of movement we see in the more traditionally-based Ippon Kumite type exercises.
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The practice of the latter is one of the aspects that took me to the practice of traditional karate, the emphasis in the curriculum on 1-steps. I have seen similar versions practiced in the Chinese martial arts in my locale as well.
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Why I refrain from referring to Distancing, is that it is usually interpreted as one or another of the opponents figuring out how to move across space catching the other guy unaware or off guard--and land a hit on the opponent; or in the case of grapplers do the same conquering of space in order and score a takedown, etc. Great example of this is the highly-active, bouncing up & down & all around displayed in Shotokan conventional point fighting kumite. The working goal is based on high mobility of moving in super fast, landing a strike--then backing quickly away out of striking range. I don't care for this approach myself.
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I'm not so concerned distancing, either in closing on the opponent unawares--or in maintaining a large defensive buffer such as I've described for conventional Shotokan point fighting-kumite. I'm more concerned with controlling the exchange. I'm more concerned with the exercise of KIME.
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KIME, as emphasized by the Shotokan karate curriculum, addresses all the decisions one must make in any exchange, including the spacial relationship between oneself & the opponent.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Why I refrain from referring to Distancing, is that it is usually interpreted as one or another of the opponents figuring out how to move across space catching the other guy unaware or off guard--and land a hit on the opponent; or in the case of grapplers do the same conquering of space in order and score a takedown, etc.

That's just one aspect of distancing. Honestly, I can't think of a single genuine martial art where understanding and control of distance isn't vitally important. Koryu sword arts, Wing Chun, Karate, BJJ, HEMA, western boxing, TKD, whatever. Regardless of the specific principles of the art, you have to understand distance.

KIME, as emphasized by the Shotokan karate curriculum, addresses all the decisions one must make in any exchange, including the spacial relationship between oneself & the opponent.

This is why I am surprised that you initially defended the clip we were discussing. How can the practitioners be developing kime when they demonstrate that they don't understand the spatial relationship between their bodies?

 

[ShotoNoob]

That's just one aspect of distancing. Honestly, I can't think of a single genuine martial art where understanding and control of distance isn't vitally important. Koryu sword arts, Wing Chun, Karate, BJJ, HEMA, western boxing, TKD, whatever. Regardless of the specific principles of the art, you have to understand distance.

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I think I said I agree with your interpretation in practice. It's how one approaches the issue is where the discussion lies....
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Thanks for following up.

This is why I am surprised that you initially defended the clip we were discussing. How can the practitioners be developing kime when they demonstrate that they don't understand the spatial relationship between their bodies?

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Tony, I think we are looking at the same vid and seeing two different perspectives. I think I spoke to this before.
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My conversation with you, and I note two MT members have marked agreed to your reply-post, is not unlike a conversation I had with a Gracie BJJ club which used to be located very near to me. Like you, the instructor, a very, very nice guy, could not comprehend my explanation of traditional karate & why it works.
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Later, one of the senior students there, I talked with him @ length, I gave some short demos, the light-bulb went off in his head.
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He acknowledged that they, the BJJ club, where not approaching martial arts the way I was explaining. He gleaned my point of the mental discipline over physical training.
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Traditional karate as a mental discipline, though specifically set forth in traditional karate manuals, including Shotokan, is not something that is easy to convey in person, let alone over the internet in blog form. Mental abilities are intangible, we can only see the physical result. As such, mental qualities are problematic to define, understand & convey. We have the limitations of the Blog-medium, so to speak.
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I gave detailed explanations, yet if you are on the wave-length of the local Gracie BJJ club near me, my explanations are just not going to make any sense to you. I think that's where we are.

 

[TrueJim]

...or, you could just kick the other guy in the head really hard.

 

[ShotoNoob]

PICKING SHOTOKAN AS A TRADITIONAL MARTIAL ART:
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Tony, here's something of an illustration of what i am talking about. The YT feature's Stan Schmidt. He is quite up in years in the vid.
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Stan is well respected by the ranking JKA in Japan. I believe he started in Judo at his homeland in South Africa. He became fascinated with karate. After training in Japan, he went on to spearhead the introduction of karate, via Shotokan to South Africa.
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Some time back, I obtained a set of VHS tapes made by Stan on Shotokan. Sure enough, it displays all the attributes which I don't like about Shotokan, the heavy physicality, the over-aggression, some of the rigid techniques, etc.
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The amazing presentation in those tapes, however, is that Stan does explain in some terms, the traditional karate principles, and how Shotokan karate is designed to move from the physical training, into more of a mental discipline. His own demonstration of advanced Shotokan karate in these tapes, however brief, is just about the most impressive display of Shotokan karate I have ever seen.
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Stan, like me, is not a bruiser, though he was very lean & lithe in his younger days. He is very professorial and speaks like a physical education teacher / college professor. Here's a brief vid I found on YT

Stan, and two of his most famous students, are highlighted in the vid. You & I can look @ this vid and see two different processes, I'm sure. I'll describe what I see below in a separate post for clarity....

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Stan, like me, is not a bruiser, though he was very lean & lithe in his younger days. He is very professorial and speaks like a physical education teacher / college professor. Here's a brief vid I found on YT

Stan, and two of his most famous students, are highlighted in the vid. You & I can look @ this vid and see two different processes, I'm sure. I'll describe what I see below in a separate post for clarity....

See, that video I like. The kareteka in the video demonstrate both mental and physical focus as well as good distancing, power, control, intensity, and body mechanics. Even though they practice a very different art than I do, I have total respect for what they are demonstrating. It's in every way far superior to the first TKD clip you posted.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Stan Schmidt Demonstration of Traditional Shotokan Karate.
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REVIEW OF STAN'S KATA. Since there is a tendency here to point out the flaws in my examples, I can point to a minor mistake Stan makes in his kata. Again, looking at meaningful working objectives, Stan's demonstration to me highlights how Machida could have out struck Rockhold.
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Note that in refutation to those whose say that karate is practice full power, Stan is not putting out full physical force in his kata demo. In doing so, Stan is putting out full mental power and that is where the building of full karate power comes from.
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Stan's demo against the staff attack demonstrates how to handle an assault under pressure. The concepts of distancing & timing you speak of are handled by precise, mentally-driven adjustments to stance. Defense is active, not all that running all over the kumite floor or the MMA Octagon for that matter. At the exact moment of vulnerability on the part of the attacker, Stan counter stikes, not before. Note the demo takes a couple of moves for Stan to set the counter up, so to speak. The process of each tactic in the kumite is an exercise in KIME.
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REVIEW OF 1ST STUDENT:
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For Shotokan, this karateka is very relaxed & transitions easily between techniques / tactics. Obviously this student is one of Stan's best, and his form and precision are on target... Note that he fights with his hand mid-levels. I do note his athletics, like most conventional Shotokan stylist's, he relies heavily on evasion rather than active defense.
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REVIEW OF 2ND STUDENT:
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This student is more of a bruiser. However, note how he too is relaxed in smashing the boards, one station right after another. Had Machida started out this way instead of point fighting Rockhold, Machida might have prevailed. In traditional Shotokan kumite, you hit the opponent & he goes down.... That's what I got out of this demo. No pussy-footing around.

 

[ShotoNoob]

See, that video I like. The kareteka in the video demonstrate both mental and physical focus as well as good distancing, power, control, intensity, and body mechanics. Even though they practice a very different art than I do, I have total respect for what they are demonstrating. It's in every way far superior to the first TKD clip you posted.

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Thanks... the difference being these guys are experts. Intensity, I like that descriptor. It's a sign of mental output.