Picking a martial art?

[Mephisto]

So it's not Taekwondo that's bad, but the way it is trained local to you. Taekwondo is what it is, just because it's trained one way local to you doesn't change the truth of what it actually is. It seems that TKD in the US compared to internationally represents a rather different and misleading picture of Taekwondo as a martial art, so generalisations based on local experiences are also likely to be misleading.

If by "local" you mean as a national trend. I still stand by my statements, if a friend of mine in this country were considering tkd for self defense, id tell him to consider another style because statistically in this country tkd is overrun with glorified daycares and mcdojos.

I Can't speak about tkd overseas but I'm not certain it's better, but I won't go as far to say something I'm not certain of. I've talked to more than few guys in the states that think their tkd school is one of the few strong schools only to learn otherwise myself. Obviously these guys are biased, maybe you are too.

 

[Gnarlie]

If by "local" you mean as a national trend. I still stand by my statements, if a friend of mine in this country were considering tkd for self defense, id tell him to consider another style because statistically in this country tkd is overrun with glorified daycares and mcdojos.

I Can't speak about tkd overseas but I'm not certain it's better, but I won't go as far to say something I'm not certain of. I've talked to more than few guys in the states that think their tkd school is one of the few strong schools only to learn otherwise myself. Obviously these guys are biased, maybe you are too.

You realise there are 4343 Kukkiwon registered dojangs just in America, right? And many many more non-registered and from other types of TKD. Are you sure your sample size is statistically significant enough to assign the confidence interval you seem to be assigning? And to extrapolate on a global scale?

I make no claim about my own school, I'm just saying that how Taekwondo is taught and trained at whichever schools you may have visited has no bearing on what the art actually is, and the art is there to be found for those who want to look.

 

[Mephisto]

You realise there are 4343 Kukkiwon registered dojangs just in America, right? And many many more non-registered and from other types of TKD. Are you sure your sample size is statistically significant enough to assign the confidence interval you seem to be assigning? And to extrapolate on a global scale?

I make no claim about my own school, I'm just saying that how Taekwondo is taught and trained at whichever schools you may have visited has no bearing on what the art actually is, and the art is there to be found for those who want to look.

Yes, I'm sure. My thoughts and opinions are confirmed by other critical minded martial artists as well. You don't have to agree though. Your own thoughts and opinions are equally likely to be wrong and incorrect, how's my schools have you visited? How many practitioners of tkd have you met? Surely not enough to make an opinion on the whole art of tkd?

 

[Gnarlie]

Yes, I'm sure. My thoughts and opinions are confirmed by other critical minded martial artists as well. You don't have to agree though. Your own thoughts and opinions are equally likely to be wrong and incorrect, how's my schools have you visited? How many practitioners of tkd have you met? Surely not enough to make an opinion on the whole art of tkd?

I am less likely to be wrong because I am not generalising based a sample I am talking specifics as they are taught at the source.

I am talking about the true nature of the art as practiced and disseminated by the leaders of the Kukkiwon. I am close enough to the core of Taekwondo to understand what the art is, without having to look at it through the lens filter of bad teaching.

And my experience is that as an art, TKD is technically just fine for self defence purposes.

 

[Drose427]

Yes, I'm sure. My thoughts and opinions are confirmed by other critical minded martial artists as well. You don't have to agree though. Your own thoughts and opinions are equally likely to be wrong and incorrect, how's my schools have you visited? How many practitioners of tkd have you met? Surely not enough to make an opinion on the whole art of tkd?

Like? Professional fighters have stood up for TKD, not to mention the Korean military and LE.....

Uninformed or uneducated opinions arent statistical data. In the few years ive been on this site, ive seen many many people try to say a style is bad, when they knew nothing about the style. Theyre arguments were just "oh i saw a video where the title said one was tkd" or "ive heard". Thats like saying, "Chevys are bad because i saw a video break down and my friend didnt like it" Theres nothing factual or statistical about it

How many TKD schools or students have you actually met and trained with?

 

[Mephisto]

Like? Professional fighters have stood up for TKD, not to mention the Korean military and LE.....

Uninformed or uneducated opinions arent statistical data. In the few years ive been on this site, ive seen many many people try to say a style is bad, when they knew nothing about the style. Theyre arguments were just "oh i saw a video where the title said one was tkd" or "ive heard". Thats like saying, "Chevys are bad because i saw a video break down and my friend didnt like it" Theres nothing factual or statistical about it

How many TKD schools or students have you actually met and trained with?

Who knows how many tkders I've met, how many have you met? In the us tkd is one of the most widespread and popular arts, it's also notorious for mcdojos. You can argue if you want but I'm not gonna agree with you. I'm not saying it's all bad everywhere, but your average tkd school that you'll find in your average us town is probably a mcdojos and not geared toward self defense or fighting ability.

 

[Drose427]

Who knows how many tkders I've met, how many have you met? In the us tkd is one of the most widespread and popular arts, it's also notorious for mcdojos. You can argue if you want but I'm not gonna agree with you. I'm not saying it's all bad everywhere, but your average tkd school that you'll find in your average us town is probably a mcdojos and not geared toward self defense or fighting ability.

Nor is your average BJJ school.....or Boxing gym....

Its all unfounded generalizations..You dont have to agree, but your argument is very flawed.

 

[Mephisto]

Nor is your average BJJ school.....or Boxing gym....

Its all unfounded generalizations..You dont have to agree, but your argument is very flawed.

Well I see your argument as flawed. Are you located in the us? Are you aware of the prominence of mcdojos? These are not unfounded accusations, there are many practitioners that agree with me. You're taking this too personally.

 

[Drose427]

Well I see your argument as flawed. Are you located in the us? Are you aware of the prominence of mcdojos? These are not unfounded accusations, there are many practitioners that agree with me. You're taking this too personally.

I am on the US, I hear it all the time.

9 times out of 10 from people using excuses such as "I saw it online" or "I knew a guy" who've had very limited exposure. Hell, half the TKD guys in kickboxing in MMA who still strike like TKD guys went to Sport Schools folks with limited exposure call "McDojos"

In fact there was Korean TKD champ who competed in K1 about a year or two ago, and won his match using TKD....Didnt even bother with punching much.

Annthony Pettis, Henderson, Silva, and especially Cung Le all have a blatant TKD base and use very obvious TKD techs....Cung Le particularly wrecked his opponents using Kukki style fighting. Which isnt odd considering many, many Kukki TKD guys keep their hands up at about chest level just like he tends to..

If TKD is so shoddy its a little odd so many professional fighters regularly train and recommend it isnt it?

You realize theres a big issue with low quality, overpriced BJJ too right? Folks just trying to capitalize on sport without ever putting any emphasis on SD. Hell, our local gyms dont talk about SD at all, the one that does 2 towns over does so in passing but according to the guys there its not SD but just an extra hour of rolling. If you expose yourself to enough BJJ schools, you'll know this is pretty bad right now.

There are a heck of a lot of shoddy boxing gyms too, go to amateur events enough and it becomes apparent when their guys become punching bags. Trainers say its the fighters fault, and the fighter buys it.

Kukki TKD schools get called Mcdojos everyday because many train for sport.....that does not make a school a McDojo.

ITF schools frequently get called McDojo, but the Korean Military and in some places LE's havent had any issue with it.

You could claim that the majority of Traditional schools are Mcdojos, but the folks who use it in SD as anecdotes aside, theres quite literally thousands out there and you have no proof aside from opinions.


I never called them accusations, but when its nothing more then generalized personal opinions, usually from people with very little actual exposure and zero TKD training of any kind, its hardly a solid argument...

I guess I can go ahead and not recommend BJJ anymore since there are so many sport oriented schools......

See my point?

 

[Gnarlie]

Advising a beginner to avoid Taekwondo because your localised experiences of it have been negative is like saying:

"Don't buy a German car, I had a ride in a second hand Trabant once and the driver was awful. My experience was awful therefore all German cars, in fact all cars, and all people who drive cars, are awful..."

If you need me, I'll be over here metaphorically working for BMW.

I would advise a beginner to spend a bit of time researching the right vehicle to buy.

 

[Mephisto]

I am on the US, I hear it all the time.

9 times out of 10 from people using excuses such as "I saw it online" or "I knew a guy" who've had very limited exposure. Hell, half the TKD guys in kickboxing in MMA who still strike like TKD guys went to Sport Schools folks with limited exposure call "McDojos"

In fact there was Korean TKD champ who competed in K1 about a year or two ago, and won his match using TKD....Didnt even bother with punching much.

Annthony Pettis, Henderson, Silva, and especially Cung Le all have a blatant TKD base and use very obvious TKD techs....Cung Le particularly wrecked his opponents using Kukki style fighting. Which isnt odd considering many, many Kukki TKD guys keep their hands up at about chest level just like he tends to..

If TKD is so shoddy its a little odd so many professional fighters regularly train and recommend it isnt it?

You realize theres a big issue with low quality, overpriced BJJ too right? Folks just trying to capitalize on sport without ever putting any emphasis on SD. Hell, our local gyms dont talk about SD at all, the one that does 2 towns over does so in passing but according to the guys there its not SD but just an extra hour of rolling. If you expose yourself to enough BJJ schools, you'll know this is pretty bad right now.

There are a heck of a lot of shoddy boxing gyms too, go to amateur events enough and it becomes apparent when their guys become punching bags. Trainers say its the fighters fault, and the fighter buys it.

Kukki TKD schools get called Mcdojos everyday because many train for sport.....that does not make a school a McDojo.

ITF schools frequently get called McDojo, but the Korean Military and in some places LE's havent had any issue with it.

You could claim that the majority of Traditional schools are Mcdojos, but the folks who use it in SD as anecdotes aside, theres quite literally thousands out there and you have no proof aside from opinions.


I never called them accusations, but when its nothing more then generalized personal opinions, usually from people with very little actual exposure and zero TKD training of any kind, its hardly a solid argument...

I guess I can go ahead and not recommend BJJ anymore since there are so many sport oriented schools......

See my point?

I'm aware there are some sketchy guys involved in bjj, and they are usually outed and widely criticized by the bjj community, which does a good job policing itself. Recently a lot of controversy surrounded a bjj school that gave a teen a bb, many in the community were outraged. Bjj can be pricey too, I'll give you that. But your average bjj schools will afford a certain level of quality. Generally a blue or purple belt will be able to handle a lower belt or any guy off the street, of course exceptions apply. I'm not going to debate sport bjj with you, I think it has a lot more value for self defense than kata and one steps.

Boxing can have its issues too but generally boxers will experienced fighting an aggressive opponent which offers a lot of value when it comes to preparing for self defense. Cardio gums like "title" boxing clubs are expensive, don't spar, and should be avoided, but they are the minority in the boxing world.

Again I'm not saying all tkd is bad and that some athletes haven't used it successfully. But if you go up to your local tkd school chances are it's a mcdojo.

 

[Mephisto]

Advising a beginner to avoid Taekwondo because your localised experiences of it have been negative is like saying:

"Don't buy a German car, I had a ride in a second hand Trabant once and the driver was awful. My experience was awful therefore all German cars, in fact all cars, and all people who drive cars, are awful..."

If you need me, I'll be over here metaphorically working for BMW.

I would advise a beginner to spend a bit of time researching the right vehicle to buy.

I'm not talking about my localized experiences, I'm talking about a trend in tkd across the country.

 

[Tez3]

The TKD I've seen here is what I'd call 'proper' martial arts, I have trained it a bit with a friend who is a TKD instructor. They seem to do everything I've ever done in a martial arts class albeit with differences in the way they do techniques. Too many high kicks for me personally with my old knees but well taught and practical. Demos I've seen tend to be the sports/Olympic variety, again not my thing but if it's yours they work hard and don't appear to be teaching rubbish to rake in money.
McDojos aren't always bad, they can be out for the money but many do actually give value back with good classes, good instructors and good techniques. The black belt clubs, childcare etc is extraneous but doesn't mean that the main classes aren't good. There is a huge tendency among some martial artists to look down on anyone who tries to earn a living at teaching martial arts, as if it's somehow less honourable than teaching for little or no monetary fees. There are places that will fleece you but they can be any or even no style, automatically panning TKD is just silly.
The best advice is to go look at clubs/schools of any style you like the look of and even have a look at those you don't like the look of! Get a feel for the teaching, the atmosphere and the students and see how you feel about it.

 

[Gnarlie]

I'm not talking about my localized experiences, I'm talking about a trend in tkd across the country.

How do you qualify that it actually is a trend across the country? What is your sample size? How many of those 4000+ Kukkiwon registered dojangs have you personally visited and trained at for more than a couple of sessions?

For every strip mall McDojang you might have driven past / heard about through a friend's brother's cousin, there may well be ten others behind closed doors off the main street that you're not aware of. You don't know what you don't know - so what evidence are you basing this supposed trend upon?

The thing is, the bad examples get a disproportionate amount of publicity.

It's easy enough to find a club with strong links to the Kukkiwon and or one of the Korean universities, if you want to train good, solid, well taught Taekwondo. If you wander into any old storefront, then I wouldn't expect too much, but I would also say that what is being taught may have deviated from what Taekwondo actually is.

 

[Mephisto]

If you wander into any old storefront, then I wouldn't expect too much, but I would also say that what is being taught may have deviated from what Taekwondo actually is.

My point exactly, if you wander into any old tkd school, there's no guarantee of quality. Just as I haven't visited every tkd school, neither have you. We may just have to agree to disagree here. I'll continue to have my reservations about commercial tkd but things may be changing.

 

[Tez3]

if you wander into any old tkd school, there's no guarantee of quality

That's going to be true of most things in life, wander in anywhere you won't know what you are getting, however it could be the journey of a lifetime.
I think you are generalising and possibly giving many people you don't know a bad name. Why not accept that there's good and bad everywhere, caveat emptor after all.

 

[Gnarlie]

My point exactly, if you wander into any old school, there's no guarantee of quality.

Fixed that for you.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Mephisto]

That's going to be true of most things in life, wander in anywhere you won't know what you are getting, however it could be the journey of a lifetime.
I think you are generalising and possibly giving many people you don't know a bad name. Why not accept that there's good and bad everywhere, caveat emptor after all.

As I've said multiple times in this thread, I agree, there is good tkd to be had. But you average tkd school? Not a good place to seek self defense and fighting ability.

 

[Mephisto]

Fixed that for you.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

To draw firm your earlier examples, go to any boxing school. There will be students who regularly spar. Even in a boxing school with s losing record, you'll find guys that spar. Go to any bjj school and you'll find guys who roll with resisting opponents regularly. In the lowest denominators you have blue and purple belts claiming higher rank, but they could still out grapple most people with no bjj training.

Now go to a tkd school. You may find light contact or no contact sparring, said school may not spar at all. You'll see child black belts, accelerated black belt club programs. Time is spent on kata and theory. How does the fitness level of students at your average tkd school compare to the boxing school? How much weight does the rank carry compared to a bjj school?

Like I said, there is potential in tkd but the commercialized aspect of the art hinders it as a system. You have to be objective when considering a school. I could link my local tkd schools and no one would be impressed. I have criticisms of my own FMA system, and I surely don't think all the schools associated with it are of superior quality. That doesn't matter to me, I see the deficiencies and make sure I do better. Just be honest and admit tkd has a trend lackluster schools in the commercial martial arts market and do what you can to separate what you do from that.

 

[TrueJim]

Just an aside...in the area where I live (northern Virginia) the whole "McDojo" thing seems to apply as much to karate as it does taekwondo. We have a ton of karate schools around here that offer after-school and summer-camp programs for children. Some of those karate schools have good reputations, some...not-so-good. My point is, this phenomenon isn't unique to taekwondo, I think.

The other martial arts are generally less well-represented around here; the majority of the schools are karate and taekwondo. But even the jiu jitsu, wushu, krav maga, etc. schools that we do have...they all offer kids classes.